Amazon goes insane: LOTR prequel series incoming

User reviews are essentially worthless due to the ability of small cluster of devoted/upset users to sink or elevate scores left and right, in ways that have nothing to do with quality (even if they make up reviews claiming to be about other problems). It keeps happening, and shows exactly what crap user reciews are.

If that's all the sources you have on the show, you know nothing about it.

The idea that the show has no connection to the source material is a purist delusion fanned because Purists want every single aspect of the source material kept intact, and refuse to allow adaptation the ability to make any change. (And then there's the "heroes in Middle Earth should be a white sausagefest" crowd, of which the less said the better).

I know my Tolkien as well as any purist, thank you very much, and frankly the show is choke-full of connections to the source material. It doesn't follow everything perfectly (and it shouldn't because different medias call for different interpretstions), but to say that there is no connection is a farcical overexxageration,
 
Ah, yes, YouTube, that great font of knowledge and wisdom, where the videos you are shown aren't at all slanted by the algorithm, and a single person can therefore draw conclusions about trends just from what they are shown.
 
User reviews are essentially worthless due to the ability of small cluster of devoted/upset users to sink or elevate scores left and right, in ways that have nothing to do with quality (even if they make up reviews claiming to be about other problems). It keeps happening, and shows exactly what crap user reciews are.
It's trivially easy to go to Rotten Tomatoes & just read some of the user reviews yourself to see that this series is nor being "review bombed". Unless just having people not like a show counts.
 
I have just one question. Without going into spoilers how close are they following the original works of Tolkien and how much is made up like the vomit inducing hobbit movies did?
 
It is not one of Tolkien's narrative stories, for the simple reason that there aren't any for which the rights are available that haven't been filmed in the last twenty-five years. The Hobbit fiasco is probably too recent for a remake, Jackson's LOTR is such a landmark that it's going to be a while longer before technology or a new vision makes it worth remaking, and the Estate won't release the rights to the Silmarillion, UT and the rest.

What it is, is an adaptation of the outline found in Tolkien's appendices of the events surrounding the forging of the Rings in the second age. It has to expand because that material is only a brief outline. With the (somewhat understandable) adaptation of condensing that timeline so they don't have to recast human roles every other week, it generally tries to correspond to that outline, but expanded because the outline itself would barely be enough for a five minutes prologue. The characters are generally (with one possible exception whose identity is currently a matter of debate, and which could be a justifiable reference to something Tolkien did write), the ones you would expect to see in the Second Age, no random Legolas taking over the story (which he could, seeing as Legolas's age is one big question mark). Original characters exist, but they largely seem to naturally fit in the parts Tolkien couldn't cover in his brief outline, and complement rather than supplement the stories of Elrond, Galadriel, Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor.

Simon Tolkien (Christopher's son, JRR's grandson, and a novelist in his own right) is acting as a consultant for the show.

All in all I would say what we have so far feels more like Middle Earth than the Hobbit, but whether it feels like that *enough* is perhaps something everyone has to appreciate for themselves.
 
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Most arguments against the show - going by titles of youtube videos on it - appear to be centered on inventing characters and plot-lines. Though, if the Tolkien estate just refuses to grant rights for actual Tolkien material, as you said it isn't possible to do much without blowing up the few lines they are allowed to use.
Then again, if this was the situation from the start, perhaps it was a bad idea to try to film anything new Tolkien-related at the moment? Much like it wouldn't make sense to film Dune if you weren't given the rights to any of the released books.

Going only from the trailers, my impression was that stylistically it isn't close to the Lotr movies, which I suppose also annoyed the fans.
 
Thanks you two. Your replies are all I need to know to avoid that series forever. Inventing new things, condensing timelines and generally disrespecting the source material like that is just not something I could tolerate.
 
On timeline condensation, one should point out even the Lord of the Rings movies condensed the timeline (by removing the 17 years gap in the book between Bilbo's party and The Shadow of the Past). Tolkien liked to throw in random lengthy gap between the action that would not work so well on a tv adaptation with actors.

That said if it doesn't feel like it's for you, then fair enough. Unfortunately, there is no Tolkien material that would fit your requirements.

As for that Rotten Tomatoes page, I fail to see how all those low-effort variations on the terms of "insult to tolkien" are evidence that review bombing is not happening...

In any event, my distrust of user scores in entertainment is not limited to review bombs. Absurd scores, positive or negative, driven by certain vocal niche of the population being pleased or displeased by the content of a film (sometimes before it'S even out!), let alone by astroturfing, say very little about actual quality. User reviews take all the problems associated with film critic, and magnify them a thousand time - less accountability, less ethics, and, given the tendency toward shallow, one-line reviews, no way to measure how relevant the review is to you. And averages make it even worse by evacuating everything but the score.

Cheap Internet polls gave us Boaty McBoatface, and I'm supposed to take them seriously? LOL.
 
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Honestly I disagree with you on the entire concept of a "review bomb". In fact, I would go so far as to say that barring extremely rare occurrences there is no such thing. It's just that a lot of people have neither the skill nor inclination to write long winded reviews but do want to express them self and leave information for others.
 
Considering the backlash against this series was ongoing long before the series came out, with much the same kind of commentd, it does not seem all that plausible that all those reviews represent opinions based on actually watching the show, let alone with an open mind.

In any event, even if the opinions are honest and based on watching the show, it remains an internet poll, and an internet poll that clearly skews toward certain demographics. Case in point being the sheer number of review that use some variant of the words "insult to Tolkien" or "desecrating Tolkien's works". How many average viewers really care about the sanctity of Tolkien's works? Not a lot (purists, mostly, who aren't a very large group, and a few people using Tolkien as a cypher for their socio-political values). They're small demographics.

Which, given the sheer number of reviews that pick up that particular battle cry, seem to indicate that they're also being extremely vocal demographics, and their views are consequently (grossly) overrepresented among user reviews.
 
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Considering the backlash against this series was ongoing long before the series came out, with much the same kind of commentd, it does not seem all that plausible that all those reviews represent opinions based on actually watching the show, let alone with an open mind.

In any event, even if the opinions are honest and based on watching the show, it remains an internet poll, and an internet poll that clearly skews toward certain demographics. Case in point being the sheer number of review that use some variant of the words "insult to Tolkien" or "desecrating Tolkien's works".

That's not average viewer talk. That kind of language is indicative of two different, and quite niche, demographics: Purists, who view any change to the work as an insult to the original text), and the Militant Traditionalists who see Middle Earth as their ideal (white masculinity-dominated) society and resent any change to that. Even added together, these two groups don't come *close* to the proportion of negative review that talk about insults to Tolkien, so the idea that they aren't grossly overrepresented in the reviews (whatever the cause) is laughable.
Worth mentioning that a lot of the "purists" wear it as an obfuscatory veil. You'll hear them trash-talk black hobbits and angsty, warrior Galadriel, not knowing that both of these things are explicitly canon straight from the Word of God.
 
Well, black hobbits are open to interpretation (Tolkien's definition of "dark complexion" ranges from "slightly more tanned than the average English peasant" all the way to "Subsaharan African" depending on context, and context is kind of lacking for the Hobbits, so there's a lot of room to make your own interpretation of how dark the Hobbits can get. My personal take for the darker Hobbit is around the Latin-American/Mediteranean/Maghreb range, considering Sam's perception of the dead Southron in the Two Towers (which I read as Sam perceiving the southron to have a darker complexion than he). But Black hobbits is certainly one legitimate interpretation of the text.

Warrior tomboy Galadriel though, yeah, that's absolutely, entirely, utterly "how many time did Tolkien say this again" canon.

But yes, there is overlap between the purists and the...others, though a lot of purists are not part of that other group.
 
Considering the backlash against this series was ongoing long before the series came out, with much the same kind of commentd, it does not seem all that plausible that all those reviews represent opinions based on actually watching the show, let alone with an open mind.

In any event, even if the opinions are honest and based on watching the show, it remains an internet poll, and an internet poll that clearly skews toward certain demographics. Case in point being the sheer number of review that use some variant of the words "insult to Tolkien" or "desecrating Tolkien's works". How many average viewers really care about the sanctity of Tolkien's works? Not a lot (purists, mostly, who aren't a very large group, and a few people using Tolkien as a cypher for their socio-political values). They're small demographics.

Which, given the sheer number of reviews that pick up that particular battle cry, seem to indicate that they're also being extremely vocal demographics, and their views are consequently (grossly) overrepresented among user reviews.
You clearly do not understand people like me than. Allow me to explain this in somewhat simple terms.

The most basic covenant between a supplier and a consumer is that you get what you pay for. If I order steak and get chicken I will be upset. And it does not matter how well that chicken is cooked I will be offended because it is not what I ordered. And if you than tell me that the dish your menu calls "premium steak" is actually roast chicken and you just named it that way on purpose to attract more buyers I have every right to be angry at you for your deception.

And the same goes for TV shows or any other form of media. If someone is advertising his TV show as being based on a franchise whether its Star Wars, LOTR or anything else than there exists a reasonable expectation among consumers that it will actually belong to that franchise as opposed to being a derivative work of fanfiction. Or that, at the very least if it is such a work that it will fit nicely with the established works, be of consistent quality with them and not contradict the established cannon of the originals. And consumers who are fans of that franchies have every right to be upset when this is not the case and they are in fact sold chicken under the title of steak.

But this can be at least overlooked if the actual chicken is cooked well. Mostly. It's still aggravating when corporations basically use false advertising and brand recognition to trick consumers into buying their products. But if that product is good than at least you can make the case that your money isn't completely wasted.

Unfortunately this is rarely the case. In reality media companies do in fact NOT have the sort of super high quality authors like Tolkien on hand to write their scripts and make things up for their fanfiction tieins. Instead they typically create products which are both objectively bad and could have been objectively good if only they had followed the original source material.

And this isn't the case just in TV shows either. It happens in every media form. Just recall all those horrible movie tiein video games that were popular and probably still are. Or the many bad anime to live action and video game to live action adaptations. Where ever there is a fandom to be exploited there will be a cash grabbing company to do it. And unless the original author is heavily involved the results are typically bad or worse.


And that is really all there is to it. If the source material is good than following it closely is also good. And if they are not doing that than they have an uphill battle to prove to me that their writers are as good as the original.
That is why I can determine instantly if I want to watch this series entirely on the basis of if they are following the source material or not.

I hope now you understand.
 
Okay, but I have at no point indicated any particular opinion regarding your thoughts about the Lord of the Rings series, or your decision not to watch it. About the only thing I have said in that regard is "fair enough".

I have indicated that "insult to Tolkien" is the kind of criticism that only a very small demographic would actually care to make, and they are clearly overrepresented among the reviews, which means the overall review scores are skewed. I stand by that.

I will finally note that the entire existence of the Lord of the Rings rest on the mother of all broken canons. Had Tolkien not deliberately and utterly shattered what he established in the original, first edition Hobbit, we wouldn't have Middle Earth.
 
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Warrior tomboy Galadriel though, yeah, that's absolutely, entirely, utterly "how many time did Tolkien say this again" canon.
Once... maybe, if you squint? There's a reference in one of his letters to her being "of Amazon disposition", which can simply mean tall, or strong. There are several vague references to battles she fought in, but those could just as easily be interpreted as her being a sorcerer of immense power, & a leader of her people. After all, she brought down the walls of Dol Goldur by using magic. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that depiction of her.
 
The full quote from the Letter says that in her youth she "was then of Amazonian disposition, and bound up her hair when taking parts in athletic feats". So the idea that this simply means tall or strong is already insufficent - it specifically refers to her character, and her propensity for physical feats.

We are further told (Shibboleth of Feanor) that "she grew to be tall beyond the measures even of the women of the Noldor, she was strong of body, mind and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth." (so we know it wasn't just that she liked sport, it was that she was a match for any Noldor athlete in physical prowess. That's canon.

The Shibboleth also tells us that her mother-name (a name that is given some time after birth, often years, and is supposed to carry the character of the child was Nerwen, which means Man-Maiden. Or, as we know the term better, Tomboy.

As you noted, we know that she is variously listed as taking places in multiple battles, most notably Alqualonde. There are no mentions or implications made in those texts (unlike the breaking of Dol Guldur) that she was fighting in those battles with magic, and while it's true she did so at Dol Guldur, it's also explicitly noted first age and second age Galadriel was a very different person than late Third Age Galadriel, so it doesn't have much indicative value.

Moreover, we know of other high Noldor who were gifted in magic: it never stopped them from also being formiddable warriors. The magic/physical prowess opposition is not really present in Tolkien (see also, Gandalf), where the distinction is more between warriors and healers (I believe that one is from Morgoth's Ring), where the taking of lives dim one's talent at saving lives. Elrond, for example, notably abandoned the way of the warrior to focus on the ways of the healer at some point in his life (and is noted as one of the great Middle Earth healers), but Galadriel's healing is never much discussed.

Taken altogether, we know she took part in battles (with no special indication to say she didn't fight physically). We know she was inclined to physical action. We know she had the physical prowess to back it up. And we know her being a warrior does not conflict with her attested skill at magic. At this point, these add up to a pretty solid case for Galadriel's fighting to have been at least in part physical, and it's the "not a warrior" side that must make a case for why not.
 
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Before my multi-reply - I want to state that I am enjoying this discussion. I know it's adversarial, but I don't mean for it to be antagonistic. That said, have at you!!!
The full quote from the Letter says that in her youth she "was then of Amazonian disposition, and bound up her hair when taking parts in athletic feats". So the idea that this simply means tall or strong is already insufficent - it specifically refers to her character, and her propensity for physical feats.
I mean, what you said about the quote "Amazonian disposition" is exactly how *I* interpret it - so, this doesn't support your point, but undermines it. I am the one who takes that to mean she's a strong person, & probably tall. So, I'll accept "strong" as referring to her character &/or will as well. You're making my point for me. Thank you. It in no way implies she's was a warrior
We are further told (Shibboleth of Feanor) that "she grew to be tall beyond the measures even of the women of the Noldor, she was strong of body, mind and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth." (so we know it wasn't just that she liked sport, it was that she was a match for any Noldor athlete in physical prowess. That's canon.
Yep. Still an awesome badass. No mention of being a soldier.
The Shibboleth also tells us that her mother-name (a name that is given some time after birth, often years, and is supposed to carry the character of the child was Nerwen, which means Man-Maiden. Or, as we know the term better, Tomboy.

As you noted, we know that she is variously listed as taking places in multiple battles, most notably Alqualonde. There are no mentions or implications made in those texts (unlike the breaking of Dol Guldur) that she was fighting in those battles with magic, and while it's true she did so at Dol Guldur, it's also explicitly noted first age and second age Galadriel was a very different person than late Third Age Galadriel, so it doesn't have much indicative value.
Granted, no point for either of our sides. Although I'll point out that "Tomboy" <> "Warrior". She's awesome. One does not need to be a warrior to be awesome. She's still the greatest Sorcerer in the Three Ages.
Moreover, we know of other high Noldor who were gifted in magic: it never stopped them from also being formiddable warriors. The magic/physical prowess opposition is not really present in Tolkien (see also, Gandalf), where the distinction is more between warriors and healers (I believe that one is from Morgoth's Ring), where the taking of lives dim one's talent at saving lives. Elrond, for example, notably abandoned the way of the warrior to focus on the ways of the healer at some point in his life (and is noted as one of the great Middle Earth healers), but Galadriel's healing is never much discussed.
Elrond is not a great warrior either. But that's a separate topic. But, current discussion: this is irrelevant - some members of X were also Y does not mean all X are Y.
Taken altogether, we know she took part in battles (with no special indication to say she didn't fight physically). We know she was inclined to physical action. We know she had the physical prowess to back it up. And we know her being a warrior does not conflict with her attested skill at magic. At this point, these add up to a pretty solid case for Galadriel's fighting to have been at least in part physical, and it's the "not a warrior" side that must make a case for why not.
"(with no special indication to say she didn't fight physically)" - <- this. She just as likely, more likely is my point, took part in battles as one of the greatest sorcerers ever. There is no evidence she ever wielded a sword, even once. That it "did not conflict" is not enough to go on. It did not conflict that she transformed into a Dragon & slaughtered her enemies - not good enough to justify portraying that as something that happened, though, IMO.
 
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Okay, but I have at no point indicated any particular opinion regarding your thoughts about the Lord of the Rings series, or your decision not to watch it. About the only thing I have said in that regard is "fair enough".

I have indicated that "insult to Tolkien" is the kind of criticism that only a very small demographic would actually care to make, and they are clearly overrepresented among the reviews, which means the overall review scores are skewed. I stand by that.

I will finally note that the entire existence of the Lord of the Rings rest on the mother of all broken canons. Had Tolkien not deliberately and utterly shattered what he established in the original, first edition Hobbit, we wouldn't have Middle Earth.
I think you did not understand the purpose of my post than.

To put it simply, when you see comments like that those are just shorthands for what I wrote. And people like me who know this can look at them and immediately discern all we need to know.
So whilst to you such reviews might look like borderline trolling they are actually very useful and tell many of us all we need to know.
 
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