Amazon goes insane: LOTR prequel series incoming

[RobAnybody]

Of course none of that proves she used a sword ; I'm not arguing the sword debate right now (I'll come back to it in a moment).

Well, I mean, I am. Or I was. That's where I started on this. If we agree on that point, then.. what are we debating at this point? I'll still respond to what you wrote so you don't feel I'm ignoring you...

She was headstrong. Tolkien described her using a synonym, self-willed (not strong willed, which you are attempting to misread it into), defined as such by the Oxford : "determined to do what you want without caring about other people, synonym: Headstrong". That's not a positive. This is an explicit character flaw that Tolkien attributed to her. You do not get to "interpret" that away or try and turn it into a positive, because it clearly is not.

If we are literally reduced to simply quibbling over the definition of "self-willed", then I don't care. Use the definition you prefer.

She was willing to go to the end of the Earth to pursue with vengeance those who wronged her loved ones: that's exactly how Tolkien describes her reacting to the sacking of Alqualonde (family on her mother's side) by Feanor.

Quote this passage & I'll respond to it. I don't recall it off the top of my head & am not trying to Google-fu here. This may be an excellent point in your favor, but I'm not willing to accept your characterization of the event without reading the text since you've misrepresented many passages you quoted thus far as implying something they don't.

For Galadriel's sword-wielding to be lore-breaking, we need to establish that there's lore it contradicts in the first place. Where is that lore? So far, you've only established that there's no evidence she wielded a sword. That's not established lore. That's merely the absence of lore.

Yep, agreed. And as I said before, there's no evidence she didn't transform into a dragon & smite her enemies mightily. There's no evidence she didn't shoot laser beams out of her eyes. There's no evidence she didn't whip out a lightsaber. "There's no evidence against it" is not a compelling argument to me. Emphasis: *to me*. It's totally fine if your threshold is lower & "no one said it didn't happen, therefore it's all good" works for you. I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind. I'm explaining *my objection*. You are telling me my opinion is wrong.

You're allowed to not like sword-Galadriel. She's not what you imagined Galadriel to be. But unless you have actual lore to point to that she is breaking, it's your expectations, not Tolkien's lore, that are broken.

If you'd stopped after the first sentence, we would literally agree with each other. All I ever did was express *my* opinion of show-Galadriel & why "sword-Galadriel" doesn't work for me (seriously: go back to the "if you squint" post) - you could have said "well that's your opinion & I accept it" or led with "You're allowed to not like sword-Galadriel. She's not what you imagined Galadriel to be", or heck, not even responded, & let it be. Instead you tried to convince me my opinion, which you just acknowledged is ok, was wrong &... now we're here.

Still respect your knowledge of the lore, fwiw.

 

[RobAnybody]

I still don't like the Jedi being turned from space wizards into muppets on crack, I take it this is a skip?

It's a visually stunning show. No expense spared. It depends on how familiar you are with the background lore of Lord of the Rings & how much that matters to you. If you don't care, it's a bit plodding but fun nevertheless. If you get hung up on lore, it can be... contentious.

 

[Farm Boy]

Ok, say I don't have any trouble with the technobabble lore justifications. Like elves are perfectly suited to thier world and they're immortal and all that, but while I liked the LOTR series, I didn't like the Legolas scenes just because I don't like stuff that Matrix-y on the action... usually. Lightsaber fights after episode 6 are snoozy. If I stipulate the show is good, is that going to annoy me that I tried to watch the show?

 

[RobAnybody]

There's a very small bit of Matrix-y action which, not to further ruffle feathers, is over the top *to me*. But it's more because of the character doing it. Like if this was a prequel to Star Wars & Leia was doing Matrix-y stuff. So it's not really the Matrix-y stuff itself, but rather who's doing it & why. So if you don't care about getting bogged down in the lore, I'd say go for it. There's some major logistics problems (like if people on Endor were like "let's go to Alderaan" & just appeared there next scene with no supplies or a ship), so it really depends on your investment & knowledge of the lore, IMO.

Viewed as a standalone piece, with no attachments to anything prior, it's... decent.

 

[Evie]

I'm sorry that you don't like the definition I posted, but word means things, and self-willed means in every major dictionary I can find, some variant of headstrong (Oxford, Cambridge) obstinate (merriam-webster), stubborn (Collins)... no, the idea that it doesn't mean those thing os not reasonable.

I have quoted the passage that includes the line about pursuing Feanor to the end of the earth in my previous post. You responded to it with "Galadriel is awesome", I believe. The key passage is this:

"but now she burned with desire to follow Feanor with her anger to whatever land he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could." I already coted the source, but it"s from People of Middle Earth, the Shibboleth of Feanor.

On the dragon thing, well, I could point out that sword-wielding being a commonplace activity in Middle Earth comparing it to dragon shifting is ridiculous, buuuuuttt this is much funnier:

Galadriel's brother, Finrod, shapeshifted himself and Beren into orcs. That's canon.
Galadriel's first cousin once removed, Luthien, shapeshifed herself into a (flying) vampire and Beren into a very large werewolf. That's canon,
Galadriel hersel appears to change her size during that whole incident with thr Ring, although that could be the Ring playing on Frodo's mind.

...yeah, I would 't make any large bet about what Galadriel can or cannot shapeshift into,

 

[RobAnybody]

Ok so, while I do enjoy that you apparently object to me saying that Galadriel is awesome, included the spelling error in your quote twice now (which references "the sacking of Alqualonde" how exactly?), & are now actually trying to show that Galadriel morphing into a Dragon & smiting her enemies in this show would be totes legit with you... I honestly think I'm done with this discussion.

You've already admitted I am right about my objection to sword-Galadriel, which was my point from the beginning. And I've said many times I accept that you have your interpretation & have no problem with it, so I'll just drop it. You may have the last word if you wish. Lotsa respect for your knowledge, still - that will never change.

 

[Evie]

I object to you ignoring what the quote actually say (to the point where you had to ask me my source on something found in that quote a few posts later) to simply say she's awesome.

Of course the typo is repeated, I copy-pasted, I'm not going to retype the entire quote. And it references the sacking of Alqualonde because that's the very event that begins the longer quote I initially posted : "Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the r... of their ships...", that is to say, the sacking of Alqualonde, the Haven of the Teleri, on Tol Eressea? When Feanor slaughtered the Teleri elves because they would not give him their ships...

...okay, given that question about the sacking of Alqualonde, I just have to ask: have you read the Silmarillion? Because if you haven't, yeah, I can see why this feels wrongs to you, inappropriate to a Middle Earth that's just the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit. ROP is channeling the moods and themes of the Silmarillion as much as they can without breaking copyright, so a very different mood.

On the dragon thing, I will recognize that while it may not outright comtradict established lore, there are definitely ways it would be antithematic for Middle Earth; that is, ways it would clash with the general nature and theme of Middle Earth. Certainly, Maleficient-style turning into a dragon to rain destruction would be anthithematic as that is not how shapeshifting is used in ME stories. Making oneself appear like a dragon to deceive enemies (much as Beren shapeshifted into a giant werewolf), that might work. Laser pistols and other science fiction would certainly be antithematic as well (steampunk...may be debatable, but probably best avoided too as Tolkien elected to abandon that vein). Swords, on the other hand, are about as far from antithematic as it gets'

(And I haven't conceded the sword thing, I've merely agree to disagree)

 

[Samson]

Are we to assume that every Prince is always a great warrior simply by virtue of birth?

It kind of does work like that in Tolkien.

 

[Gorbles]

Exactly. Thanks for making my point. "Hey Conan, stand over here & hold my flag" said no one, ever.

You, uh, really don't know your Tolkien, huh?

 

[Farm Boy]

Thank you both for taking the time to answer. I get through about one adult(not that type) of show every 6 months to a year these days, it seems.

Appreciate it!

 

[Samson]

Thank you both for taking the time to answer. I get through about one adult(not that type) of show every 6 months to a year these days, it seems.

Appreciate it!

Yeah, it is not much like that

Spoiler :

Seriously, Galadriel is in the middle of the ocean and has to swim home, but she does not take her dress off?

 

[Farm Boy]

Spoiler :

Well now I'm losing interest in a different way.

>.>
<.<
>.>

 

[Gorbles]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/09/08/middle-earth-designing-the-stunning-elrond-master-of-rivendell/

This is completely aside from Rings of Power, but I'm a Warhammer nerd and the lore they do into is neat. Backs up my point better than I ever could.

 

[Kyriakos]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/09/08/middle-earth-designing-the-stunning-elrond-master-of-rivendell/

This is completely aside from Rings of Power, but I'm a Warhammer nerd and the lore they do into is neat. Backs up my point better than I ever could.

I thought no one cared about WH fantasy

 

[Evie]

On episode 3, I'm aghast...at myself that I didn't see what the sigil was until the reveal.

I'm a major Tolkien nerd AND a major nerd of that specific type of graphic symbolism. I should have caught that one.

 

[EvaDK]

On episode 3, I'm aghast...at myself that I didn't see what the sigil was until the reveal.

I'm a major Tolkien nerd AND a major nerd of that specific type of graphic symbolism. I should have caught that one.

It's probably the timeline compression that messes with us.

Galadriel's Forodwaith expedition transpired centuries before Sauron started making Mordor his base and initiate the construction of Barad-dur. So, any knowledge you might have about the lore, wasn't going to help you connect the dots between the symbol Galadriel found there and Mordor.

 

[Evie]

Possibly a problem, but I was more refering to my knowledge of Middle Earth geography, and of mapmaking in general (and my ability to read maps from many side is something a lot of people notice about me). I should recognize Mordor when I see it, even at a different angle!

 

[Chukchi Husky]

At that scene I had to open up my copy of The Lord of the Rings to look at the map of Middle-earth.

 

[RobAnybody]

Upthread I referenced "jumping from Endor to Alderaan" & that was due to Elrond & Celebrimbor "teleporting" to Khazad-dum, with no packs, no supplies, no guards, not even Bill the Pony! Like they were just strolling down to visit a neighbor a block or two away. Geography is among many things they just ignore in this show. Apparently Skyrim-style Fast Travel was lost in the Second Age.

 

[Evie]

They are in Eregion (it's explicitly stated on screen), the capital of which, Ost in Edhil (name not stated, as it is not given in material they have the rights to), was canonically built right down the Sirannon river from the West Gates of Moria. The distance is somewhat uncertain, but we're talking somewhere between a few hours up to two days of walking, between the greatest Dwarven realm and one of the greatest Noldorin realms - not exactly unsafe country.

It's not a visit to a neighbor a few bloc away, but it's about on the difficulty level of an easy stroll down the road in the Shire (sans Nazgul, since they don't exist yet.