Americans

[Reg Pither]

the only reason they are in it that i can think of is that this game is made in america...and that a lot of american ppl would probably like to play with their own nationality.

I think that's a more than good enough reason, especially if the publishers are actually looking to make money with this game. I admit, it does jar slightly sometimes in the pre-industrial ages, but then so does a Babylonian spaceship! All part of the fun and colour of the series, IMHO.

(I'm not American, by the way... )

 

[Myartar]

America is in the game b/c we're AWESOME.
No other reason needed.

 

[Jonathan]

I admit, it does jar slightly sometimes in the pre-industrial ages, but then so does a Babylonian spaceship!

A Babylonian spaceship merely requires that the Babylonians survive into modern times and learn to build a spaceship. That's alternate history, but the game necessarily involves alternate history. There's nothing impossible about it.

However, the USA was started by Europeans in the 18th century and that's what made it what it is. If it had started as a separate civ in ancient times, it would be nothing like the modern USA now. To have a civ starting in ancient times and turning into the modern USA via a completely different history is impossible.

But sure, it's only a game and we don't need to take this too seriously.

 

[TerraHero]

Even tough i'd personalyl replace the US with about any other of my list-o-civs i am getting very tired of this constant discussion on if the americans should be in. If Europe had a delay for everytime a thread like this is made they could start pre-ordering Civ5.

 

[Reg Pither]

A Babylonian spaceship merely requires that the Babylonians survive into modern times and learn to build a spaceship. That's alternate history, but the game necessarily involves alternate history. There's nothing impossible about it.

However, the USA was started by Europeans in the 18th century and that's what made it what it is. If it had started as a separate civ in ancient times, it would be nothing like the modern USA now. To have a civ starting in ancient times and turning into the modern USA via a completely different history is impossible.
But sure, it's only a game and we don't need to take this too seriously.

OK, still not taking this too seriously, but.... I don't see that your comparison holds up. In alternate history, there is no 'impossible' - that's the whole point. America could have become a power two thousand years ago if the indigenous peoples had simply advanced in the same way as the rest of the world. Surely that's just as possible or as impossible in a world of alternate history as the Babylonians surviving until the twentieth century? I agree that, in the real world, the Babylonian advancement is perhaps more likely, but this isn't what we are dealing with.


All I was saying was that it still 'jars' due to what I know about history, but while I might prefer some sort of authentic historical flavour, ultimately I have no problem accepting anything in a game of this sort.

 

[southafrica]

This subject has already been argued to death in this forum.

I think the answer is that different people view the game in different ways. I view it as a contest between ancient civs trying to survive to modern times, so in my view the Americans don't belong in the game, and neither do various other civs (such as the English, the Spanish, the Aztecs) that weren't around in ancient times.

However, other people don't see it this way, and Firaxis is trying to cater for everyone.

If you don't want any particular civ in the game, I believe you can easily exclude it from your own solo games. I don't know for sure because I'm in Spain and I haven't received my copy of the game yet...

I agree with Jonathan on this topic being already being exhausted. I actually think that we should take the Greeks away, what have they contributed to civilization?

 

[Reg Pither]

I actually think that we should take the Greeks away, what have they contributed to civilization?

Now where's John Cleese when you need him...?

 

[southafrica]

Now where's John Cleese when you need him...?

I think we need to get rid of the Egyptians as well... I mean really they hardly influenced civilization whatsoever.

 

[Jonny211]

Maybe some of you should wake up and realise there is a world outside of the USA!?!?! There were civizations starting up around the Indus area and Mesopotamia in 4000BC and they gave us much more than Burger King and Elvis in the long run.

 

[southafrica]

Maybe some of you should wake up and realise there is a world outside of the USA!?!?! There were civizations starting up around the Indus area and Mesopotamia in 4000BC and they gave us much more than Burger King and Elvis in the long run.

While were at it, I think we should never include the sumarians either. No good louts.

 

[Dominico]

lolz I see they also put in Elvis as a culture bomb lmao...

I really hope i misread that, i mean Elvis... A culture bomb? Shouldnt the Beatles be in there also as a culture bomb x2?

Is Britney Spears in there and McDonalds also as cultural advances lmao.

Uhh i remember talking to an American girl in Spain about the amazing heritage England and spain have left on the world culturally, and she looked sad and said "America has no culture " lol

Maybe this is true but im sure there are sensible cultural icons if we look hard enough... really? Umm anyone?

 

[Jonny211]

You're right. Bloody Sumerians! What have they ever done for us?

 

[The End Is Nigh]

Not this discussion again.

1. The US is a big market.
2. The US dominated the 20th Century.

These should be good enough reasons even for the most anti-american...

 

[Jonathan]

In alternate history, there is no 'impossible' - that's the whole point. America could have become a power two thousand years ago if the indigenous peoples had simply advanced in the same way as the rest of the world. Surely that's just as possible or as impossible in a world of alternate history as the Babylonians surviving until the twentieth century?

But if the indigenous peoples had advanced in the same way as the rest of the world and become a power in the world two thousand years ago, we would have one or more nations in North America now that would not resemble the USA in any way. There would be no Washington and no Roosevelt (and no Elvis Presley). The city names would be utterly different. The language, the culture, the religion, the politics, the foreign policy, all would be utterly different. The name of the continent would be different.

 

[Inflammatory]

You're right. Bloody Sumerians! What have they ever done for us?

What about the wheeled carts and the writing?

 

[Multiplicity]

Definition of civilization:

"An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions." -- Click here for reference

I believe America fits into that definition.

 

[The End Is Nigh]

Definition of civilization:

"An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions." -- Click here for reference

I believe America fits into that definition.

Although I agree with the above, dictionary.com is hardly Oxford's Thesaurus.

 

[Jonathan]

Not this discussion again.

Yes, this discussion again. I didn't start it. I admit I'm taking part in it; but so are you.

The US is a big market.

That's one of the reasons why the Americans are included in the game -- and it's the main reason why the Americans had to be included in the game. But it's irrelevant to players of the game, who can easily choose to exclude civs from the game, and (less easily) add extra civs to the game.

The US dominated the 20th Century.

So what? The game spans 60 centuries.

These should be good enough reasons even for the most anti-american...

To say that Americans don't belong in ancient times is not anti-American, it's just a basic observation of historical fact.

 

[Reg Pither]

But if the indigenous peoples had advanced in the same way as the rest of the world and become a power in the world two thousand years ago, we would have one or more nations in North America now that would not resemble the USA in any way. There would be no Washington and no Roosevelt (and no Elvis Presley). The city names would be utterly different. The language, the culture, the religion, the politics, the foreign policy, all would be utterly different. The name of the continent would be different.

Says who?? This is a world of alternate history, where anything can happen. I don't see the point in trying to shoehorn what we know has happened into an (in effect) fictional game world that starts in 4000 BC with a blank canvas. The whole point of the game is that it doesn't play out as our history has. There'd be no game otherwise.

 

[Inflammatory]

Don't bash dictionary.com - the newbie's ticket to enlightenment.