Americans

[ngin]

heh i had the same last night (got the game yesterday)...and yeah its too bad the boards are not working correct for me...also with posting and loading (takes forever)

i might try out us once ingame...see how i like it.
and once more...ppl in holland (including me eventough my crude post) dont dislike the usa and we still rember the financial aid the us has given holland after w.o.2...i cant tell you that holland would look a lot different if we didnt got that financial aid, cause we had nothing left after the war.

 

[southafrica]

heh i had the same last night (got the game yesterday)...and yeah its too bad the boards are not working correct for me...also with posting and loading (takes forever)

i might try out us once ingame...see how i like it.
and once more...ppl in holland (including me eventough my crude post) dont dislike the usa and we still rember the financial aid the us has given holland after w.o.2...i cant tell you that holland would look a lot different if we didnt got that financial aid, cause we had nothing left after the war.

Well, wash with his fin/org is a great combo never worry about your money situation My wife's mother is Dutch, I never thought you or the dutch were anti-american, I just have noticed that american bashing has become a professional sport.

 

[Gumpy]

Americans are in the game because...........I dont know.

This thread made good reading though

ngin has China signed that beloved Kyoto Agreement?

 

[Mrdarklight]

Because the Americans are a great civilization. That's the only answer you need. They're new, yes, but they are one of the world's greatest civilizations.

Take India, for example. Does India really warrant inclusion in the game? They're a 2nd-rate Civilization, far less important than the Americans.

Or take the French. Well, I guess they contributed a lot a few hundred years ago. Truth be told, there have only been two or three truly great civilizations in history - the Romans, the Greeks and the Chinese.

America definitely ranks though. We're new to the Civilization scene, but we mastered it.

 

[chris8b]

As a proud Sumerian, I find this thread disturbing.

 

[Genghis Khan II]

They need to be in the game. you cant just have ancient or middle age civs in an all era game. and the (Gamely speaking) modern age has only been around 50 or so years. the game is called civilization not "realy old civilizations". And personaly I dont see why anyone should keep arguing about this anymore.

 

[Knightlancer]

Ive been having this tought since the first civ i played:
why are the americans in it?..they feel so out of place between all those old civilizations.

the only reason they are in it that i can think of is that this game is made in america...and that a lot of american ppl would probably like to play with their own nationality.

A mod needs to close the thread, We do NOT need to go through this again.

 

[zeeter]

Actually, economically the European Union is the worlds #1 economical superpower.

This is actually coming from an American. (Although currently on vacation in the Netherlands, because I love western European culture.)

Where are more copies of the game sold? The USA or Europe?

 

[zeeter]

When we (US) owe the rest of the world 8 trillion dollars, we no longer control our own economy. This gives foreign governments massive leverage.

No, I'd say leverage is when Germany get's their undies all in a bundle over the US in Iraq, then the US needs to close some bases in Europe because they're not really necessary anymore, and suddenly Germany wants to be our friend again because they need the economic benefits of a US base in their country. Too bad we don't have any bases that (that I know of) in France. Maybe they'd be nicer to us, then.

 

[wilebill]

Being an American*, and yet still able to think, I have always been amused by the belief of my fellow Americans that we ... er I mean US ... are the crown of creation, the fulfillment of the historical process, and somehow the reason it all happened in the first place. The final stage in this presumption is the twisting of history by our media to make it appear that folks back then were just like us Americans now; they held the same social and political beliefs as us, only a lot of good things like television and aircraft and corn on the cob had not yet been invented.

So, yes, the game is made in America, the game has an historical element, so Americans are in it.

((* By "American" I mean citizens of the United States, which is what the ordinary person in the states means when they use the word "American," most of them being ignorant of the existence of obscure nations like Canada, Mexico, or Brazil))

 

[zeeter]

Being an American*, and yet still able to think, I have always been amused by the belief of my fellow Americans that we ... er I mean US ... are the crown of creation, the fulfillment of the historical process, and somehow the reason it all happened in the first place. The final stage in this presumption is the twisting of history by our media to make it appear that folks back then were just like us Americans now; they held the same social and political beliefs as us, only a lot of good things like television and aircraft and corn on the cob had not yet been invented.

So, yes, the game is made in America, the game has an historical element, so Americans are in it.

((* By "American" I mean citizens of the United States, which is what the ordinary person in the states means when they use the word "American," most of them being ignorant of the existence of obscure nations like Canada, Mexico, or Brazil))

It's not ignorance. Most people around the world call us Americans. What else are they going to call us? United Statesians?

And historically the most advanced nations in the world have always felt that they were the center of the universe. The Romans, the Brits in the 1700's. The Greeks. It's a natural feeling in that I'm American and no other country really matters to me. Or, to sound more caring, my feeling on the USA will always come before my feelings for, say, the Ukraine, or wherever else you might think of.

 

[trotskylite]

it's not that americans literally don't care about other people, they just don't pay attention. that being a result of continental isolation and idiot culture distraction.

 

[tmarcl]

As I mentioned in a different thread, since this has been argued to death, my default response is:

"Because we're better than you, that's why"

Marc

 

[zeeter]

"Because we're better than you, that's why"

Marc

Ok, I've been trying my best NOT to say what tmarcl just did, but what they hay?

We are better. We shower EVERY DAY. We brush our teeth EVERY DAY. Almost all of us have cars. Most suburban families have two! Our television shows are better because they're in English. American English, not that tripe with the accent. We've won every war that we've ever fought where we actually wanted to win. We forced the USSR into submission. We beat the Germans, moving about twice as fast as the Russians were. We write better software games. When we're bored, our leaders do things like have inappropriate contact with interns. WE HAVE OJ!!! The Beatles? Bah! Where would they have been without the American market? Just another English scat-band (which is what they derived from). Elvis over Michaelangelo? At least Elvis is still alive. Our national beverage does not contain alcohol (wait - is that better?). We understand that even though it costs more, German beer is no better than American beer.

Ok, I give the over/under for this post to be deleted as five minutes. Any takers?

 

[The Tollan]

If United States, a civilization that has been of critical importance in the modern era, is not going to be represented in the game then it is not a far step to simply drop the entire modern era (note I do not claim that one should simply drop the modern out of spite if the United States were removed rather I argue that following this logic can lead to an inferior game). If only pre-1776 or 1789 civilizations are going to be in the game because the post-1776 or 1789 civilizations did not exist back then then it is hard to explain why the game can go on beyond that time frame (unless, to be remain consistent, there were only extremely ancient civilizations which would cause problems for the game and would seem to be a bad move rather than a good one). This is looking at the situation purely from what would appear to make sense and not from any favoritism towards or dislike of the United States. Disclaimer: Exactly when the United States became a separate civilization can be debated. This post uses 1776 and 1789 A.D. for purposes of expediency.

I think it would be good if there were some modern Central and South American countries (former colonies like the United States) that one could select. There is definitely no reason why countries partly or mostly founded by settlers or immigrants from another civilization (s) on another (other) continent (s) cannot be in the game as civilizations even if their independence is relatively recent. Note that I would agree that civilizations that are originated in ancient or medieval times that are important should definitely be in the game. Civilizations of modern origin should not have any favoritism towards them (however neither is it good to exclude them).

The claim that the U.S. cannot be in the game because it is was originally based on it another civilization (England) actually is problematic since many of the other civilizations (probably most) other than the U.S. that are in the game (that should not be removed) were formed by a similar process of divergence. England was founded by groups from the European continent. The groups who inhabited England possessed particular cultures that temporarily were present both in England and on the European contintent. There was a divergence in which the tribes in England eventually became the English and those who remained on continental soil became members of other cultures. Thus one could say that the United States had its background in the English civilization in the same way the English had backgrounds in pre-English cultures. The U.S. is no longer entirely English in culture (though there is much influence).

A short summary of the above: If a civilization is a differentiated offshot or a descendent of another civilization then it has become new civilization and is a candidate for entry into the game (I do not think that cultures that lack this criteria absolutely cannot be included in the game though).

If the modern era is present in the game it would be odd to pass up an important civilization that has had a huge affect on modern times. I do not see why the developers would possibly want to do that (in addition to the numerous other reasons why it would be a problem). I think that the standards for entry as civilization should not be too strict (for example countries that exist as present should be able to be added). In some cases one version of a civilization represents the past and present of that civilization so a modern version is not necessary though. Even if the game was not made by an American company the United States would stand a good chance of being in it (suppose somehow the game were the same under this scenario).

 

[Shakes]

hehe, just imagine the game were realistic....

in 1776, a new tribe appears, and goes on to win a space race victory by 1969 (that is, if the random seed doesn't do something nasty during the cuban missile crisis)

They put a man on the moon, not AC.

 

[zeeter]

How come people are complaining about the Americans in the game when Julius Caesar is the leader of the Romans? Caesar was only the "dictator" for a few years. If anything, Octavian made Rome what it became by ruling so effectively for so long.

I can't play this game anymore knowing that Caesar is the Roman leader.

 

[zeeter]

Here's another reason why the Americans deserve to be in the game. The American civilization is a little over 225 years old, yet it is the Dominant civilization in the world today. How long did it take for the romans? Lessee, tribes for a few hundred years. Then in 700-some BC they began to get moving. By about 200 BC they still didn't control the mediteranean. The Brits were tribes in BC, then started to become a civilization under the Romans, and it wasn't until around the fifteenth or sixteenth century that they became dominant. Same for most of the other European civs.

 

[sweKangaroo]

3. Players in other nations of the world will take special satisfaction in anihilating the Americans in the game. Or keeping them as their virtual slaves.

Hehe, that was my great passion when i was playing the Iroqui-indians in civIII. Oh, those were great times

Anyway, i dont mind if america or any other civ is in the game. the more the funnier.
I want to be able to kick as many civilizations bottoms as possible

 

[Huxley Hobbes]

By the logic that modern civs should not be in the game, any civ which was created much after 4000BC shouldn't be in the game.

So, we've got the Sumerians... the Hittites? And I think someone like the Mesapotamians count. (Edit: Actually, Susa and Kish both predate the 4th millennia BC, so you can count those in!) And you could throw China in, because although they started a bit later they've just lasted so long we'll cut them a little slack. Whilst there were other cultures around then, few made truly significant advances so they should just be in as minor tribes.

If you feel four is too few, you could expand to include some of the minor tribes, and moreover I'd let you get away with including Egypt. Although the height of Egyptian culture and power did not come for quite some time, she did begin with her earliest dynasties way back in the late 3rd millennium BC. Or maybe you could mod it so you start out as the Naqada, and then evolve into the Egyptians?

On the other hand, you could accept that there are some massive historical innaccuracies inherent in any game with any claim to giving players freedom, and just roll with it...