An Ancient India Scenario

[Rambuchan]

Is the Western side of the map cut at the right place? I don't really know how much territory to give the Hellenes.

Dunno really. I generally feel the main weakness with the options is that north west corner for those 'land pirates'. But, like I say, I reckon it could be made to work with not too much trouble (and a bit of imagination!).

Other Remarks
All of the terrain ideas in the last few posts make perfect sense to me. During the work on Rise of Asia Hikaro (iirc) suggested having the initially placed Forest be LM Forest. When it is cut down & regrown the new forest would be bamboo - a major building material throughout India. Give it a higher shield yield to represent that.

That's a cool idea and technique to use. However, I'm not so sure about the bolded part. Teak, maybe. Bamboo was and still is very much used for many things. But use of bamboo for building buildings wasn't and isn't a big thing as far as I'm aware. What buildings can be made with bamboo? It's tough and funky and all that jazz but not a great material for making walls and beams and columns and doors and other things you'd need in a building.

 

[Jerry'sGoldfish]

skyscrapers can be build with bamboo........

 

[Rambuchan]

Hi Jerry, all I'm saying is teak would be more appropriate for an ancient India scenario.

7Ronin - Is there any chance of you plotting the Civ list onto the map so we can start thinking in more detail of relationships, strategies, challenges and targets for each of the civs? Basically, doing a similar thing as I did earlier with text showing placements and font sizes indicating relative power.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Map
The map won't end up square. One way to assess the scale would be posting the image with diamond overlays. Keep the image size but change the grid size to compare. Not difficult at all since the grid is already on hand. I'll do up versions with a couple of grid scales.

I'll also post an annotated version with approximate civ locations. Not sure exactly when things will be ready, but I'll work on it today.

If needed, Yavannas (Hellenes) territory can be cropped further down the road. Cropping is not difficult at any stage. The caveat is that it is best done on a map without placed cities.

Elephants
Takhi, did I give you the supplemental packages, like the howdah variations & the skin painting/decorations? That last is one way to include civ color on any elephant.

Gold vs. ?
"Gold" can be grammatical. "Gelt" as used in Yiddish for example.

Bamboo
Try constructing a 4 story building without scaffolding. Or a major temple. Structures designed to be more temporary, such as buildings for a monsoon-season sangha. Ashrams. Vedic fire altars. Pretty much everything in a more jungley village.

No reason it has to be bamboo or teak. Include both. Teak certainly makes more sense for a lot of naval architecture. Except maybe masts and outriggers on smaller vessels. Like from the spice islands. Or coastal craft from weaker civs, like the Naga.

Rathas
While battlefield use was in decline they were still important. A key element determining the outcome at Hydapses for example. Reminds me of similar difficulties at Waterloo.

Arthasastra refers to heavy rathas carrying four auxilliaries. Yet battle accounts seem to mention only the charioteer & archer. "Wheel guardians" ? Sounds to me like the WWII trick of having infantry hitch a ride on tanks then jump off when close to the battle field. King Arthur worked out a way to have land carriers in EFZI. A potential UU?

 

[Blue Monkey]

Comparing four sizes (height by width measured in tiles*).

Spoiler :

The sea passage to the South of Sri Lanka is 5-10 tiles wide depending on the grid.

Now that the working file is set up other sizes can be demonstrated fairly quickly.






* For those unfamiliar with isometric tile geometry
explanation of the math

Spoiler :

The rectangular sections measure off 10 x 10 sections. What the game engine measures as 10 x 10 looks like 5 x 5 because of the offset between rows/columns. Isometric tiles are twice as wide as they are high. So the total tiles needed to cover a given area varies greatly depending on whether the desired dimension is measured horizontally or vertically. In this case the area - in game terms - can be anywhere from 10800 tiles (120x90) to 29700 (198x150). That's alomost 3 times larger. A perfect demonstration of why the game bogs down so rapidly on larger maps. Something of critical concern in a scenario like that involves sea trade.

Note that all the above maps would appear visually accurate in the game rather than in the minimap. A visual comparison to the two geometries:

Spoiler :

TOP - minimap looks accurate but in-game view is distorted

BOTTOM - in-game view is accurate

With the bottom example it takes longer to march the same RL distance North-South than it does East-West. This is the only effect on game play. My preference is to put up with that for a better looking map. Whichever way works for the rest of you is fine with me.

 

[Blue Monkey]

The mapping post now has the corrected annotations. Thanks for waiting patiently.

 

[Blue Monkey]

All the locations are very approximate. Various reference maps place them slightly differently.

Blue = Northern Group . Nagas may be redundant since Magadha has 3 other civs to contend with. Maybe include them as a jungle fighter UU for Ganga Rashtra (name changed from Gangaridai to Sanskrit version). Also changed Taksasila (Indian version of Taxila).

Light Blue = Yavanas (Hellenes)

Yellow = Himalayan Group

Green = Deccan Group

Orange = Mleccha (Trade Group). Substituted Hadramut for Arabia - the latter is a Roman name while Hadramut was a major trading kingdom of the era. Saba would be another reasonable alternative. Similarly, Kedah was a thalassocracy in the narrow section of the Malay Peninsula. Seemed a reasonable replacement for "spice islands". There are other possibilities, though most of the known states were from later eras.

White = Suggested Additions. It would make sense to shift start locations a bit to more evenly cover the map. Without straying too far from historical locations there will still be major gaps. The civs listed are very preliminary suggestions to fill in those spots. Zhang Zhung is the Tibetan culture that gave rise to the Bon religion. The rest are Indian civs - roughly of the period.

 

[7ronin]

Ram: As always we appreciate your comments and great insight.
Blue: Super map work (and quick too)!!

Map: I am in favor of the 160 x 120 map. How does that sound to you gentlemen? I would like to have some "resource place names" a la Hegemon. Remember, this is not just a game, it's an educational experience!

Civs: Add Sunga, Malwa, Kosala, Zhang Zhung, and Matsya. No to Nagas. Place "China" at top edge of map as trade route to China was overland. Place "Macedon" [we can choose a better name perhaps] on west edge of map between Kamboja and Arachosia. Sikander needs a base of operations to start from. Place Hadramut on the sliver of Arabia. The hree Himalayan Group civs are all in Nepal nestled up against the mountains.

Naming Conventions:
"Blue" Northern Group: Ganga Civs
"Pink" Southern Group: Dravida Civs

Research Aids: Yes, I was referring to the Chakravarti book. I'm glad we both have copies. Just received, via inter-library loan, the Cultural Atlas of India by Gordon Johnson. This book is more than just maps. Lots of interesting stuff: terrain, weather, resources, trade routes, and more.

Techs: For consideration: Sacred Architecture

Ratha: How about three levels of Ratha? 1. LIght (two wheeled) Ratha - use any suitable chariot unit. 2.Medium Ratha - the Tak Ratha with just two riders. 3. Heavy Ratha - the Tak Ratha with additional riders - a real "war wagon."

Units: You need teak and timber to build any ship.

An aside on bamboo: I recall during my stint in Asia during the 1960's that in a variety of countries they were using bamboo as scaffolding on skyscrapers!

Thoughts on startup:

1. Top tier civs:
Macedon - strategy: conquer Kamboja, Arachosia, and Batrica while containing Pauravas.
Pauravas - prevent the expansion of Macedon while securing the east against pressure from Nanda and Magadha.
Magadha

2. Second tier civs:
Nanda resist pressure from Pauravas in the west and Magadha.
Kalinga - bide time and build up country, forces.
Vidharba - expand locally.

3. Third tier Civs:
Avoid the big boys, absorb your neighbors if you can, and hang on for the ride.

 

[Rambuchan]

Hi Guys, just to say top work and keep it up. I was analysing the maps and was ready to post thoughts when the Azure Monkey told us to hold off. Then my plate got filled with work and a sick little toddler to take care of to boot. I can do magic, but not miracles. So something's got to give. I'll catch up when breathing space is granted to me.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I'll work on a revised "map" with closer to exact placements for starting locations.

And then, unless there are objections, I'll start work on an actual 160 x 120 map/biq.

 

[Rambuchan]

Yes, 160 x 120 is the best option. I look at those maps and think about Cheras (and other smaller civs) and don't see them doing much on the smaller maps. The 198 x 150 would likely just be too much.

PS. I hope we're going to get a proper Ghats section and Deccan plateau.

Also - Are you going for pre-placed cities and empires at game start? I thought that was the idea, unless I missed something. If so, then some of those around the south of Nanda may not be required.

EDIT: Bit more, why not!

An aside on bamboo: I recall during my stint in Asia during the 1960's that in a variety of countries they were using bamboo as scaffolding on skyscrapers!

I ain't fussy. In my mind, building resources are what go into the actual building itself. I agree it's a good idea to have bamboo for certain civs' buildings in certain regions. It'd be good to diversify these materials for flavour in fact.

Thoughts on startup:

1. Top tier civs:
Macedon - strategy: conquer Kamboja, Arachosia, and Batrica while containing Pauravas.
Pauravas - prevent the expansion of Macedon while securing the east against pressure from Nanda and Magadha.
Magadha

2. Second tier civs:
Nanda resist pressure from Pauravas in the west and Magadha.
Kalinga - bide time and build up country, forces.
Vidharba - expand locally.

3. Third tier Civs:
Avoid the big boys, absorb your neighbors if you can, and hang on for the ride.

This is sounding pretty spot on.

For Magadha's strategy I would say: Take over Nanda Empire and then go for domination victory.
For Dravidians strategy I would say: Stay local, get rich and cultural and go for Cultural and/or Trade Victory. (This is good incentive for Magadha to get down south and stop them before they achieve it).

 

[Blue Monkey]

PS. I hope we're going to get a proper Ghats section and Deccan plateau.

With the guidance of the sat imagery and things like WWFs on-line ecoregions map I hope to be as authentic as possible without sacrificing gameplay.

Speaking of maps

 

[7ronin]

Oops. Blue made his city location map before I could get out of the starting gate. So I've made some edits.

Ram: Pre-placed cities. Everyone starts with one except for Macedonia who should have two (or three). Play balance can be assisted by giving some civs a settler at start and others none. We have three civs in South India exclusive of Ceylon. I think that they will all fit comfortably on the map. By the way, what size map is Hegemon? I'm with you, a resource is what goes into the building. I just thought it was amazing that you could build a tall building of concrete and steel with "flimsy" bamboo for scaffolding.

Blue: My original comment is OBE (overtaken by events).

Progress: Things are moving quickly. We have a lot of momentum going. What's next? Resources? Anyone know anyone we can pressgang to join the effort? Aside from the units, I hope that we can develop an integrated graphic appearance. Custom made interface, tech splashes, and pop heads would be nice.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Progress: Things are moving quickly. We have a lot of momentum going. What's next? Resources? Anyone know anyone we can pressgang to join the effort? Aside from the units, I hope that we can develop an integrated graphic appearance. Custom made interface, tech splashes, and pop heads would be nice.

The interface graphics are well worth doing - but belong close to last on the to do list, imho. Civ traits are important to determine early in the process. The chart linked in my sig may be useful there. Before trying to make a complete list of resources it's probably best to work on a tech tree and the standard unit lines. Wonders & other improvements will be connected to the tree as well. Decisions about UUs should flow from the unit lines.

Given the season a usable map is unlikely to be ready before the new year. WIP screenshots will get posted of course. Concentrating on that means someone else will need to take the lead in these other things. It's important for everyone to take a look at AD Classic & Different Dawn. A lot of my recommendations are already in use in Rob's work.

 

[Blue Monkey]

This posted strictly for confirmation that the map is at the desired scale (160 x 120). Ignore coastlines, etc. Tile grid is clearly visible in the full size image. If it looks good then it's on to the cartography.

thumbnail



The attached biq will open - for purposes of seeing what the scale looks like in the editor or game. The whole map is visible. Definitely not playable - no terrain or civs beyond minimum required to open.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Indian Tech Icons


Will be remaking the Recitation icon.

 

[7ronin]

It looks fine to me. If there are no other comments or opinions, then let's proceed.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Forgot to post a minimap screenie. Here it is, fwiw:

 

[7ronin]

I am at the moment mining the BVB. Not having visited for several years I had forgotten what a wealth of info is contained there. The sources of most CivIII Indian units are conveniently listed.

 

[Blue Monkey]

And it's badly out of date. There's a lot of info buried in other threads. Not to mention what's on the hard drive & in handwritten notes that hasn't made it online yet.