An Ancient India Scenario

I've taken another look and I think the rotated map will work as proposed
  • Phase One: experiment with the orientation and post a more detailed image.
  • Phase Two: Once satisfactory coverage is agreed on transform it into an image for processing via BMPtoBIC. I do this by "painting" a layer with the BMPtoBIC palette that approximates the geography in the source picture. Making the bmp at large scale and then reducing it produces fairly accurate results.
  • Phase Three: Refine and add detail to the map as scenario develops.
Phase one can start right away. To accomplish phase two a ball-park estimate of desired dimensions in tiles is needed.



Been getting the "server too busy" message a lot. So replies may be out of sync or delayed.
 
I've been getting "server busy" messages alot also. There doesn't seem to be any particular time that's affected; I get them all through the day.

Standing by for completion of Phase One, sir!

In the meantime, I will start to work on city lists, etc., and write some civ/leader civiliopedia entries.
 


The first two took me less than 5 minutes a piece. "C" with Tibet compressed took about half an hour. I like it because Tibet doesn't dominate the map but all of the Brahmaputra is in (slightly distorted). The resizing also allows a closer crop of the Eastern edge - eliminating everything beyond the Ganges Delta. This image is actually a 50% thumbnail. Clicking on it takes you to the full-scale.

Remember that all of these are just first attempts. Time to hear from everyone else. That's about all I can do today between the server and other commitments.
 
Wow! Amazing progress here guys. A bit too short on time to fully catch up with all the detail but it looks like Blue is taking up the reins admirably. Top work sir!

Thoughts on map:


The map is looking great and I fully agree that the Mughals map was too small to have done the job for this scenario. I was going to suggest the rotated approach to get more north western in actually. It's a prefectly good solution and the common sense way to go.

I haven't had time to look through the recent posts in detail but I think option "B" above looks the best.

"A" has way too much going on north of the Himalayas (though I mention some possible benefit that could be derived from this below) and the scaling required to get that extra land in does a disservice to the mainland where all the main action should be. "C" isn't too bad but probably has too little land around and east of the Ganges delta imo. You probably need just a lil bit more than what's there in "C".

So, on a first view, I'd vote for "B". It seems to provide all that's need and not too much excess. The scale is good, the right amount of action west and east and north.

I don't think one needs to get too hung up on the curve of the Brahmaputra river. As long as you've got some space in the delta area for a backward civ that's fine. And that civ, whether Nagas or whoever, is just there to provide something for the Mauryans to keep in check rather than have a completely clean backside, so to speak. They should be something like the Burma civ in Mughals I reckon.

Terrains:

My two paisa worth also says that desert is going to be a very key terrain in this scenario, given the map options offered. (Jungle too of course.) I would suggest to create some mechanism with desert and mountain terrain to stop or drastically hinder those civs south of the Himalaya from going there, to prevent distraction for them. That can be done with terrain movement cost / wheeled units on both desert and mountain terrain. Maybe even disease from such terrain, though I've never played with that function so wouldn't be confident how to exploit that.

There's a lot of mountainous desert up there begging for say just Buddhist monks being able to run treasure/relics around there. Those lands are also of interest to Saddhus too.

You could exploit the same technique with the same sorts of terrain to create a difficult situation for central civs with the likes of the Bactrians and the other marauders in the west. This would give them 'terrain homeland advantage' like with the Himalayans and make western campaigns for Sikander and the central Indians more of a challenge.

Also:

I, for one, would feel like I hadn't been served enough dhaal and rice if there weren't many different elephant units in the game. Like, much more than two. Four, different ones at the very least, I'd say. I had two different ones in the Mughals scenario and that's only because there were just two such units worth including back then. And that was years ago now. There are so many more to choose from now, so let's go to town, pretty please. Happy to help out further with unit suggests when the time comes. And I loooove the idea of an elephant worker. That is brilliant!

Blue Monkey said:
Three guesses who Sandrokottos is.
That's Chandragupta! But I have to confess to not knowing Poros' real name.
 
Thanks Ram, for some excellent thoughts. I am voting for Map "B" also. :)

We thoroughly researched the concept of impassible mountains several years ago. So we will be using them. I wonder how impassable parts of the Thar Desert and Western Iran are.

Okay, I'm game for multiple elephants just as long as you don't tell me that some Indian mystic had a flying elephant. :p

I know you like pirates. Should we have pirates as well?

Porus = Purushottama in Sanskrit I think. We will have to change his name to be official and consistent.

Penelope will be the queen of either Pixelstan or Ithakastan. :mischief:
 
What would be the currency for this?

Wll mercenary units be available?

Purushottama… which case is that?
 
@Tak

currency? gold and silver coin; good from one end of the world to the other.

Mercenary Units. Alexander had lots of mercenaries. Don't know if any of the Indian civs used them.

Case? Porus is the latinized name of the Indian king who fought Alexander and was defeated. Purushottama is his name in Sanskrit.

You still haven't answered my question about the Sco'ish fowks pairty.
 
Yes, but what's the name? We can't have '100 gold', can we?

Case as in grammatical case. Is 'Purushottama' the nominative?

An aye, ye can join yon Pairty! Hatred o' Ingerland is good enough fer our wee pairty.
 
The Macedonians and their successors used Staters and Drachmas. I can't find any information about the denomination of Ancient Indian coins other than descriptive titles, e.g. "punched coins."

English does not use the nominative case. I can't speak to original usage in either Latin or Sanskrit.

Yair a wee bonny lad. Ah will jine the pairty. Alba gu bràth!
 
We thoroughly researched the concept of impassible mountains several years ago. So we will be using them. I wonder how impassable parts of the Thar Desert and Western Iran are.
Yeah, but I'm saying that desert should have some specific treatment too. Not impassable though. Definitely some movement cost and maybe disease too - to emulate the troubles Alexander's army had getting back to Babylon and for further terrain home advantage.

Okay, I'm game for multiple elephants just as long as you don't tell me that some Indian mystic had a flying elephant. :p
Now that you mention it... :mischief:

I know you like pirates. Should we have pirates as well?
I thought the western marauders would make suitable 'land based pirates'.

Porus = Purushottama in Sanskrit I think. We will have to change his name to be official and consistent.
Thank you. Yes, got to go with the Sanskrit names throughout.

Penelope will be the queen of either Pixelstan or Ithakastan. :mischief:
Man, I'm beginning to worry about you. One dram too many me thinks. :lol:
 
More on the map
The only specific comments on why B is the best option seem to be about extending to the East. Agree that this should be done. Just a matter of redoing the crop. The ones shown were strictly preliminary - designed to provoke this exact discussion. Adding that extension to C makes the most sense, imho. Tibet needs to be present, but not with so much territory as to become too strong a base for conquest.

A straight crop would lose a big piece of Bactria, etc. More rotation would definitely lose a big piece of the Ganges Delta or else make SW China more of a strategic player than a trade partner. Adding too much impassable terrain throughout the plateau is like moving the Kunlun range South by about 400 miles. The rescaling only flattens the curve of the Himalayas a little, and would be barely noticable in game.

The concern about the Brahmaputra is partly answered by extending the map further East. Even with the extension the Tsangpo Gorge would still be missing from map B. It was reputedly one of the entrances to the "hidden" kingdoms such as Shambhala. The area would be a likely location for "religious" resources, as well as a treacherous but feasible route to/from Tibet.

Is the Western side of the map cut at the right place? I don't really know how much territory to give the Hellenes.

Other Remarks
All of the terrain ideas in the last few posts make perfect sense to me. During the work on Rise of Asia Hikaro (iirc) suggested having the initially placed Forest be LM Forest. When it is cut down & regrown the new forest would be bamboo - a major building material throughout India. Give it a higher shield yield to represent that.

Given something like 300 languages and all the various cultures/kingdoms in South Asia there is unlikely to be an overarching choice for coinage. "Gold" is the most neutral & satisfactory solution.

The Nagas would likely be another sort of "pirate". There's a reason they were one of the cultures demonized in the epics. ;) Maybe place another small group in the spice islands? Trade followed by conquest would match the historic pattern. Even got a suitable UU.
 
Gentlemen: Everything sounds good. No seabased pirates but land mauraders instead. Do land mauraders make any funny sounds such as Aarrg the way that seabased pirates do? Recently, someone made a unit which instead of dying dematerialized in a puff of smoke. I would like to have an Indian mystic unit who does that.

Blue: Just to make sure everything fits can you show where Kabul and Kandahar would be on map B? It seems that everything fits but it's a little hard to tell. Would it be possible to have a few more tiles of sea at the bottom of B?
 
Given that gold is an uncountable noun, having 'two gold' is grammatically incorrect, but then Firaxis never cared for such 'trifles'…
 
Can add as much sea as we want - could include all of the Maldives, for example. Haven't put it in the displays so far because it's just blue sea.

Here's a newer version of C - now with more of Ganges Delta & Assam. Posted C instead of B because I was already working on it. The main difference in B would be more of Tibet & the Hindu Kush. Large image.
Spoiler :
cropmk2.jpg


And a smaller version with Kandahar & Taxila in very approximate positions. Kabul would be somewhere more or less between the two.

crop2annot.jpg



How about some game map guidance? Namely, what approximate size (in tiles) are you looking for?
 
Given that gold is an uncountable noun, having 'two gold' is grammatically incorrect, but then Firaxis never cared for such 'trifles'…
Really? Is this really the best contribution you can make?
Spelling and grammar
English is not everyone's first language. Not everyone has perfect language skills. As such, don't comment on other peoples' ability to spell words correctly or construct sentences. If you cannot understand their meaning, you may let them know in a nice manner.

You've got access to a university library in a world-class city. How about doing a little research for all of our benefit. ;)
 
Which library, in which university, and in which world-class city?
 
Having looked at your latest version of map "C" I am much more comfortable with it. As to the size of the map in tiles, I am really at a loss as to how to assess this. I would think that the map needs to be bigger than the Mughal map. We have something on the order of twenty civs. We don't want them cramped and we want them to have room to expand. I will defer to your decision on the map size. I am afraid I don't have the expertise. Perhaps Rambuchan has some idea.

I just received in the mail today a wonderful book: The Art of War in Ancient India by P.C. Chakravarti. It contains everything you might want to know about the topic. From the size and composition of armies to descriptions of weapons and armor to the types of elephants and their employment, and on and on. At the time of our scenario, chariots were on the way out (they were around of course and in varying sizes and configurements) and elephants were increasing in importance as the main arm of battle. Some of our civs fielded incredibly large numbers of elephants. Some war elephants were armored (plates and/or chain mail and spikes) and all of them had numerous accoutrements such as umbrellas, belts, neck chains, bells, nets, blankets, arrow bags, tusk spikes, cupolas, and more.
 
Which library, in which university, and in which world-class city?

The Social Sciences library of the University of Buenos Aires? The University of Buenos Aires is reputed to be the best University in both Central and South America.

I suppose if we wanted to (assuming it is possible), we could change the resource from "gold" to "talents of gold" or "lakhs of gold."
 
Having looked at your latest version of map "C" I am much more comfortable with it. As to the size of the map in tiles, I am really at a loss as to how to assess this. I would think that the map needs to be bigger than the Mughal map. We have something on the order of twenty civs. We don't want them cramped and we want them to have room to expand. I will defer to your decision on the map size. I am afraid I don't have the expertise. Perhaps Rambuchan has some idea.

I just received in the mail today a wonderful book: The Art of War in Ancient India by P.C. Chakravarti. It contains everything you might want to know about the topic. From the size and composition of armies to descriptions of weapons and armor to the types of elephants and their employment, and on and on. At the time of our scenario, chariots were on the way out (they were around of course and in varying sizes and configurements) and elephants were increasing in importance as the main arm of battle. Some of our civs fielded incredibly large numbers of elephants. Some war elephants were armored (plates and/or chain mail and spikes) and all of them had numerous accoutrements such as umbrellas, belts, neck chains, bells, nets, blankets, arrow bags, tusk spikes, cupolas, and more.
I've gotten two Elephant models from Supa and Blue Monkey. Between those two I can patch something up (I like armour and such stuff) I was already planning on doing one of those Ballistas for elephants that Blue Monkey has mnentioned earlier in any case.
The Social Sciences library of the University of Buenos Aires? The University of Buenos Aires is reputed to be the best University in both Central and South America.
Social Sciences Library? I'm not even sure they have such a library. But I'm not in that faculty so I couldn't access it anyway.

Unless you mean a certain library from Lovecraftian stories…
7ronin said:
I suppose if we wanted to (assuming it is possible), we could change the resource from "gold" to "talents of gold."
I've been thinking and then was foiled by the blasted hardcoding about how we cannot use crores, lakhs, etc. for money. :cringe:
 
Had another quick look at the map options. Not too much in it between "B" and "C". With clever scenario and gameplay design you could make either of them work.
Having looked at your latest version of map "C" I am much more comfortable with it. As to the size of the map in tiles, I am really at a loss as to how to assess this. I would think that the map needs to be bigger than the Mughal map. We have something on the order of twenty civs. We don't want them cramped and we want them to have room to expand. I will defer to your decision on the map size. I am afraid I don't have the expertise. Perhaps Rambuchan has some idea.
Somewhere between 120x120 and 150x150?

(Mughals map is 100x100).
 
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