An Ancient India Scenario

[Blue Monkey]

One way around not having reserved posts: have a "table of contents" in the OP with links to key posts elsewhere in the thread. The link will point to whatever post you keep the civ list in, for example. Then the info is easily accessible regardless of whether it's on the first page or not.

Some of the well done scenarios have come with extended read-me packages including things like unit charts, suggestions for strategies, etc. Also more in depth information on the history/culture than could fit into the 'pedia. A simple map or two would make sense as part of such a package. Something like the one in this post, adapted to the needs of the scenario.

My personal "default" set is mostly Ares' beta terrain, with a few variations. Like the marshes from TAM that I'm adapting to have reeds & rushes instead of the palms. It looks very similar to the set in AD. Whatever works for you is fine. It doesn't need to be decided right away. Just understand that fine tuning things like the coastlines is best done with the set the scenario will be played on.

There's time for further review of the map. The next stage of work won't happen for at least a week. Something may bubble up from your unconscious that needs mentioning but isn't apparent at first glance.

Looking ahead a bit: I've got a fair idea of what resource graphics are available here in the C&C community. Once you've got a working list I'll track down as many graphics of the more obscure ones as possible. Can then do screenshots to see how they look in conjunction with each other & your chosen terrain. From researching ecoregions for doing the map terrain I'm starting to come across more precise geo locations for possible resources. Like where teak is likely to grow in harvestable quantities, for example.

 

[7ronin]

I like ghosts's borders here. These are the ones in Hegemon v3.

I am partial to Snoopy's "greener terrain." Ares' terrain seems a bit too "cold" for a scenario about India. Most of the terrain packs I've looked at seem too "dry."

Goody huts? Mines? I'm sure there must be something out there better than the default.

Maps of India (mapsofindia.com) has resource maps for each Indian state. I doubt the current distribution of iron ore, for example, is much different that it was in 350 B.C.E.

 

[7ronin]

This list is subject to change. Suggestions gladly welcomed.

Strategic Resources
Deleted: Copper (the scenario begins in the iron age)
Deleted: Tin (the scenario begin in the iron age)
1. Iron
2. Elephants1
3. Elephants2
4. Elephants3 (located in the west and Kalinga)
5. Horses1
6. Horses2 (located in the north west)
7. Timber
8. Gold
9. Marble
10. Bamboo
11. Teak

Luxuries:
1. Gems
2. Cotton
3. Silk
4. Incense
5. Dyes
6. Pepper
7. Cinnamon
8. Pearls
9. Teak
10. Sandalwood
11. Cinnabar
12. Wine
13. Glass
14. Ivory

Bonuses:
1. Rice
2. Wheat
3. Cattle
4. Fish
5. Silver
6. Wootz (should it be a resource?)
7. Tortoise Shell

Following suggested by Ram; I would like to hear a little more about what these might be and how they might work:
1. Buddhist avatar
2. Buddhist relic
3. Buddhist pilgrimage
4. Hindu avatar
5. Hindu relic
6. Hindu pilgrimage
7. Jain avatar
8. Jain relic
9. Jain pilgrimage

 

[Blue Monkey]

As it stands - a lot of strat/lux & not many bonus - the list is going to run up against the phantom resource bug. It may help to reverse engineer: think of improvements & units, then develop the resources list. I know it would give me a better sense of what recommendations to make.


Wootz makes more sense as an improvement requiring iron. Something like "wootz foundry"

Any way to get multiple uses out of a resource helps. Take glass for example. An improvement (requires timber for charcoal?) that increases happiness has the same effect as a luxury. The additional improvement frees a resource slot & enhances the value of timber as a trade item..

The religious relics are likely to be connected with improvements or units - which would mean they're strategic. What about this scheme: relic is a resource that appears with a tech (avatar?) which allows the building of pilgrimage sites. Additional techs could allow other builds - Buddhist & Jain - with the same resource. Alternatively, "relic" could be a bonus resource. +$$$ because of the influx of pilgrims. And $$$ can go to happiness as well. Doing things that way would allow for multiple resources based in the various religions while avoiding a strat/lux overflow.


- imho -

 

[7ronin]

Even though I think from reading Pounder's posts that there is a work around to the "phantom resource" problem, shall we agree to limit total resources to 32?

I like your take on the relics. I will move them to the strategic section and delete avatars and pilgrimages. I will also delete Wootz. That should take us to 31 resources total. The "Advanced Metallurgy Tech" plus the iron resource allows you to build the "Wootz Foundary." A Wootz foundary permits you to upgrade certain units.

I will move "cotton" to the bonus section. Marble is an "iffy" choice. I'm not sure that the Indians were big marble users. Wine, glass, and ivory can go if they have to.

I expect that we will go through several refinements of this list especially when we start thinking more about advancments and units.

Do you have any strong feelings one way or the other about the terrain graphics? Will we have any LM terrain besides mountains? Desert? Tropical Rain Forest (I dislike the term jungle)? Palm trees seem to be an inappropriate graphic for tropical rain forest.

 

[Virote_Considon]

If you move the relics to before the bonus resources, you should be fine with this amount of resources (total lux+strat=less than 32)

For bonus resources themselves, maybe you can wait until the map is more or less done, then see what you think you need more of in terms of food/shields/gold in certain areas of the map.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Do you have any strong feelings one way or the other about the terrain graphics? Will we have any LM terrain besides mountains? Desert? Tropical Rain Forest (I dislike the term jungle)? Palm trees seem to be an inappropriate graphic for tropical rain forest.

I leave the choice up to you. It's a matter of aesthetics. "De gustibus ..." Getting lm terrain to match the primary graphics is the only special consideration I forsee.

I'm gathering my thoughts on potential LMs based on some of the unique terrains in the subcontinent. Expect a long post fairly soon.

 

[7ronin]

Virote: Thanks for the info on resources.

Blue: Ah, I get to choose? Then go with Snoopy's green.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Snoopy's it is. Agreed the inadequacy of "jungle" as descriptor. I prefer Urwald - a German world I'd translate as "primeval forest".

Bonus resources to consider: "Deer" or something similar. Hunting is a big deal in the epics, etc. Kshatriya had the same reverence for archery that the samurai did for the sword. "Skins" - such as tiger skins - were important as well. The Gita specifically mentions a tiger or deer skin as part of setting up a proper meditation spot. I made a tiger skin resource way back when. There's an image of it in one of the previews here. Given the strong strain of vegetarianism in the culture there ought to be some sort of fruit resource as well. "Mangos" or some such.

Before further work on the map I'd like some feedback on whether or not the previously raised issues are being properly addressed.

EDIT: meaning have I dealt with the shortcomings of the previous wip? The changes from this to this based on these suggestions.

 

[Rambuchan]

Hi Guys,

Sorry I haven't been contributing lately. I've been very tied up with work and my spare time has been taken up with family and Hegemonic graphics work with Vuldacon.

I think I need to comment on:

- v0.3 Map
- Resources list
- Anything else?

Regarding "Jungle" not being an adequate term:

Are you guys kidding me? We get the word from Sanskrit!

 

[Blue Monkey]

I think we're more discussing the degenerated colloquial English usage of the word. Jangala has much richer connotations. Similar to the connotive differences between Jagganatha and juggernaut. By the way can you recommend any resources for learning Sanskrit to an autodidact?

I'm with you Rambuchan. Especially given the time of year my family time comes first. And creative precedence goes to the steampunk project. Currently waiting for a major update of Balthasar's work. In the meantime I'm trying to get the Asoka map at least usable.

 

[Blue Monkey]

LM Terrain:

Brainstorming

Neither suggesting that this is an exhaustive list nor that all need be included. Only what comes to mind at the moment.

• The Rann of Kutch definitely deserves it's own terrain graphics. Very distinct from either swamps, marshes or desert.
• Sundarbans complex of mudflats & mangroves.
• Seasonal grasslands such as the Banni area.
• Thorn scrub such as in the Deccan & Northwest around the Thar Desert
• The Lakshadweep Islands have many atolls / coral reefs.

Graphics Ideas

Quite few people have made modifications & additions to Snoopy's files. Some may be suitable for lm terrain. Some may be good choices to swap for the main files. I'm willing to do some CnP if needed. There are certain to be many more worth consideration than this brief list. The Graphics Library is one place to start browsing. This external site is also worth a look for Snoopy variants.

• Rhye's Mountains are based on Snoopy's but are substantially different. Imho they have a look more appropriate to the Himalayas. Maybe use for both lm & snow-capped mts.
• Pounder has made a lot of terrain graphics. Many - if not most - are based on Snoopy's terrain. Especially noticed his heavy grasslands (Terai-Duar savannah?) and waterfalls - which would be nice for where the Brahmaputra descends from the Himalayas. His versions of the coast/sea/ocean files are also unique.
• Womak's Mountains combined - maybe add variety by using these for the forest/jungle mountains
• Goldfool's Asian Farms irrigation looks more like rice cultivation than the standard Snoopy's set.
• Ares is working on a desert that looks more like thorny scrub. Just wip previews at this point. It's being made more in the style of Rhye's than Snoopy's, but may be suggestive of other options.

Probably have to experiment with various combinations & post screenshots to find what works for you.​

Technical considerations

Not all terrains have lm versions - unless we get into hex-editing as did embryodead. Keep in mind that the graphics are distinct from the numbers and flags used by the game engine. Put simply, any graphics (within certain parameters) can be associated with any file name. It may be possible to free up some terrains to use. For example: there is no tundra per se . Alpine meadows & forest is a better description. Those can be handled by grassland & pine forest. Tundra & tundra forest are free for other use.

The majority of terrains are actually overlays of grassland. Mountains/Hills show a grassland base regardless of surrounding terrain, for example. Balthasar made me aware that lm terrains are overlays to the lm version of the base terrain. That's one way to increase visual variety & continuity. Making lm grass look like plains & putting lm mountains on it might make a better transition to deserts for example. Assigning slots can get tricky since - regardless of visuals - certain terrains cannot touch.

I made this chart to help me figuring out what files to associate with which graphics in some of the steampunk scenarios where radically different terrain such as underworld or other planets has to coexist with Earth-normal graphics. The colors are reminders of which files use which bases. Hopefully the scheme makes sense.

thumbnail
​

 

[7ronin]

Brainstorming:
1. The Rann of Kutch definitely deserves it's own terrain graphics. Very distinct from either swamps, marshes or desert.I agree. It should also be impassable to any units.

2. Sundarbans complex of mudflats & mangroves. Good idea.

3. Seasonal grasslands such as the Banni area. Don't see the need for this.

4. Thorn scrub such as in the Deccan & Northwest around the Thar Desert. Yes.

5. The Lakshadweep Islands have many atolls / coral reefs. Absolutely.

Graphics Ideas:
1. Rhye's Mountains are based on Snoopy's but are substantially different. Imho they have a look more appropriate to the Himalayas. Maybe use for both lm & snow-capped mts. I had forgottom all about these. They are much better indeed.

2. Pounder has made a lot of terrain graphics. Many - if not most - are based on Snoopy's terrain. Especially noticed his heavy grasslands (Terai-Duar savannah?) and waterfalls - which would be nice for where the Brahmaputra descends from the Himalayas. His versions of the coast/sea/ocean files are also unique.
Womak's Mountains combined - maybe add variety by using these for the forest/jungle mountains. I'm still looking trough Pounder's topographical treasure trove.

3. Goldfool's Asian Farms irrigation looks more like rice cultivation than the standard Snoopy's set. There is something unsettling about this graphic.

4. Ares is working on a desert that looks more like thorny scrub. I will take a look.

Technical considerations:
There are twelve terrain types. Is one of those slots hard coded to a particular effect? Can we change the name and change the effect. In other words, if you change the name of "forest" to "mangrove swamp" is mangrove swamp only going to have the terrain effects that forest did.

 

[Blue Monkey]

There are twelve terrain types. Is one of those slots hard coded to a particular effect? Can we change the name and change the effect. In other words, if you change the name of "forest" to "mangrove swamp" is mangrove swamp only going to have the terrain effects that forest did.

There are 26 usable terrain types. Some of which are heavily dependent on the settings for others. The majority of types inherit at least some of the "grassland" settings. But they are still distinct types from the point of view of the game engine.

It can get confusing because "grassland" can refer to the graphics, the name as it appears in the game screens such as the 'pedia, or the dedicated slot in the set of all terrain types. The name doesn't matter - it's just a label used in the 'pedia, etc. The effects of a terrain type are done by setting numbers (such as movement costs & shield yields) and flags (activating certain attributes such as "impassable") in the editor. The graphics can look like just about anything.

The relationships between the slots (terrain types) holds regardless of the name and graphics. The effects of forest, bonus grassland, etc. are to some degree determined by the "grassland" parameters whatever name & graphics are given to the "grassland" slot. You can make lm grassland look like desert & call it "high desert" but you'll still have trouble placing it next to real "desert" on the map.

The graphics of the dependent types are affected as well. If you make "grassland" look like deep water then the forests will look like bayou & hills will look like tiny islands. Naval units cannot move across "grassland" regardless of whether it looks like grass, water, or deep space.

LM terrain shares a lot of the numbers and flags with its base terrain. For example if mountains are impassable then lm mountains are also impassable. No choice about it. That's why we came up with the trick of using lm hills to create passes. And why freeing up tundra & its forest has big advantages.

I'd have to look up the specific details of all the various relationships in the editor. Maybe it's time to make another chart.

You don't need to worry too much about the technical side in thinking about the scenario. Come up with the general ideas of what you want the terrains to do & we'll figure out how to achieve the effect.

 

[7ronin]

I've rumbled through the editor in an attempt to learn everything I never knew about terrain. The way I see it:

Slots which can be freed up:
Tundra
Tundra forest
LM Ocean
Volcano
LM Forest
LM Hills
LM Desert
Plains-LM Forest

Terrain to be added:
LM Mountain Passes
Mudflat-Mangrove Swamp
Coral Reefs
Thorn Scrub
Waterfall (I think you had a specific one in mind)

Other thoughts:
You suggested that cut down forests change to bamboo. How would that work?
Does the Irrawaddy Delta rate a special terrain?
Are sea "wrecks" terrain or are they a resource? Do they confer any advantages? They are present in Hegemon but I don't see them doing anything.

I have been working on Leaders, Capital cities, great leaders and generals, and city lists. Hard work. For some of our civs, there is very little info beyond a few mentions in the classic texts. We may have to be "inventive" in a few cases. I've also been doodling some thoughts on improvements and tech advances.

 

[Virote_Considon]

I've rumbled through the editor in an attempt to learn everything I never knew about terrain. The way I see it:

Slots which can be freed up:
Tundra
Tundra forest
LM Sea
Volcano
LM Forest
LM Hills
LM Desert
Plains-LM Forest

Plains LM Forest uses the Grassland LM Forest graphics - there is only one LM Forest file.

You've also got LM Deserts, LM Plains and LM Grassland.

If you use a hex editor, you can expand this to LM Tundra, LM Coasts and LM Oceans. I think there is also an extra marsh graphic that can be used (a few rows not used in the current game but present in the marsh.pcx files) and also I think there are LM Jungle graphics in the LM Forest files.

Terrain to be added:
LM Mountain Passes
Mudflat-Mangrove Swamp
Coral Reefs
Thorn Scrub
Waterfall (I think you had a specific one in mind)

Thorn Scrub could potentially use LM Plains or LM Deserts.

Waterfall would just be a mountain river or a resource, I'd guess. Coral reefs could also possibly be a resource; though by using a hex editor you could put them on LM Coasts with a higher movement cost to regular coasts maybe? Could also use resources to represent smaller islands in an island chain.

Other thoughts:
You suggested that cut down forests change to bamboo. How would that work?

All forests placed on the map are LM Forests. Any forests "planted" by workers would be regular forests -> Rename and regraphic regular forests into bamboo forests.

Are sea "wrecks" terrain or are they a resource? Do they confer any advantages? They are present in Hegemon but I don't see them doing anything.

Resources. In Hegemon I think they're just there for graphic effects, but you can assign any food/shield/commerce value you want to them.

 

[Rambuchan]

OK, I've had a look at v0.3 of the map. Himalayas are looking good Perhaps a few more desert tiles may be needed in the interior, but that's not a huge thing. That can be changed when the gameplay aspects of the relics and monks starts being tested.

I still think there's isn't enough of a wall going on with certain mountains to (a) give that Deccan Plateau effect and (b) create those all important gameplay elements for the Tamils and also the Western Marauders. Have a look at the marked map in the spoiler for the hotspots.

Spoiler :

The bits I've circled in black relate to the Tamils. There are still a few too many openings through the mountains. The AI will likely break out through these and start settling all over the Deccan Plateau. We need to literally trap the likes of the Cheras between the mountains and sea. And over on the right, with the Eastern Ghats, more of this needs to happen too. Just think of creating walls with the mountains. Sure, those Tamils on the eastern side can break out a bit more, they did so, but care needs to be taken here or the AI and players will start creating ahistorical borders too easily. And players and AI who are NOT those Tamils will find it too easy to gain access to the Tamils and the super-precious spice trading goods in their lands. More of a challenge needs to be set and these mountains are the best way to do it. Think of it, as a non-Tamil civ, when you finally do get through over those mountains and have sight of using those spices, it'll be like the Joads reaching California in The Grapes of Wrath.

Similar improvements can be made for the mountains in Pakistan and Iran. I still see a few too many ways through. I have circled the hotspots here. If you consider the gamplay fun and challenge to be had trying to find routes through those mountains and get treasures through these - amidst marauding civs who have a homeland advantage (movement over mountains) - then I reckon it's still a bit too easy. Needs to be much more tough and scary!

Best thing, in my mind, when looking to improve these aspects is to consider (a) the idea of creating 'mountain walls' and (b) imagine yourself with units trying to find their way through these. Forget the geographical realities whilst doing this. Think of gameplay. If I'm not mistaken, these map improvements I suggest will actually bring things a bit closer to geographical realities anyway.

PS. I am completely ignorant about LM terrain and how to use it. So, if you're using LM terrain to achieve what I'm describing above then great!

 

[Rambuchan]

This list is subject to change. Suggestions gladly welcomed.

Strategic Resources
Deleted: Copper (the scenario begins in the iron age)
Deleted: Tin (the scenario begin in the iron age)
1. Iron
2. Elephants1
3. Elephants2 (located in the west and Kalinga)
4. Horses1
5. Horses2 (located in the north west)
6. Timber
7. Gold
8. Marble

Luxuries:
9. Gems
10. Cotton
11. Silk
12. Incense
13. Dyes
14. Pepper
15. Cinnamon
16. Pearls
17. Teak
18. Sandalwood
19. Cinnabar
20. Wine
21. Glass
22. Ivory

Bonuses:
23.Rice
24. Wheat
25. Cattle
26. Fish
27. Silver
28. Wootz (should it be a resource?)
29. Tortoise Shell

Following suggested by Ram; I would like to hear a little more about what these might be and how they might work:
30. Buddhist avatar
31. Buddhist relic
32. Buddhist pilgrimage
33. Hindu avatar
34. Hindu relic
35. Hindu pilgrimage
36. Jain avatar
37. Jain relic
38. Jain pilgrimage

This list is looking good. Few comments:

- I'm very glad to see two types of horses and elephants going on. This will be great for gameplay and regional advantages. Don't go changing this!

- Quite a lot of luxuries going on. There may be too much happiness too easily? Ivory for example, is it really needed given the two elephant resources?

- If pushed for space (see ridiculous demands below!) you could consider the following luxuries either being dropped or put into bonus resources instead: Pearls (it'd be more like the fish bonus and how do you get a sea tile resource into your trade network?), Incense (it's so widespread in India that it seems unnecessary having it in as a specific luxury resource, better as bonus), Cotton (ditto as with Incense), Teak (seems better placed as a strategic for building projects or as a bonus for productivity).

- Sandalwood, both building material and luxury item.

- I'd still be in favour of some type of human resource in the strategics category. The likes of 'skilled workers', 'shudras' and so on. There need not be many. As mentioned previously, these can aid the region specific creation of all kinds of improvements, especially cultural and grand building projects. Maybe even military too.

- I'd also be in favour of getting some human luxuries in there. Especially 'poets' or 'Tamil poets' to bring out all those Sangam features. Up in the north, 'Gypsies/Dom', 'musicians' and/or 'dancers' would be much more interesting ones to go for here and it's not hard to imagine them being directly linked to happiness and cultural improvements.

- Those religious ones are great to see. I'd say 'Pilgrims' or 'Pilgrim site' though. 'Relics' is fine. Perhaps drop avatar from here; I'm stuggling with those a bit in terms of imagining them in the game and what they would actually be and losing them would make things easier on a number of counts.

- Ideally these religious resources should go into strategics for proper regional religious strategy and flavouring. It's a shame about the resource bug but maybe, if really really pushed, more generic pilgrim / relic resources could be used to avoid this and the flavouring comes via the techs and improvements that each civ can build. The ideal of course would be to have something like the list as is being in the strategics category though. I'm pretty hot on these religious resources being strategic and region specific. Can you tell?

- Also on religious resources, I'm thinking that it would be great to have something like Neem Tree, Peepal Tree or Banyan Tree. These could perhaps replace the Avatar ones. I say this because (a) These trees are highly prized in India for religious (and medical) reasons and shrines are often created beneath them and these act as centres for communities. (b) Trees are much more geographically specific of course (c) It's much less of an imaginative leap going for something like this rather than Avatar (d) They'd look mighty pretty on the map and (e) I was thinking of improvements and I'm pretty confident you're going to want a 'Banyan Shrine' or 'Peepal Shrine' type of improvement in there. It would be similar to the Altar improvement in Hegemon, namely one of the most basic and fundamental improvements for culture and happiness, allowing other flavoured improvements to come on top of it.

- It'd be better to define what timber it is. Go for a specific type of wood. I'm also getting pictures in my head of elephants lumbering and pushing around big logs. There could be some nice improvement link between elephant workers or elephant based improvements going on here. Perhaps a productivity improvement that utilises both elephants and 'timber' resources.

- Just drop wootz from the resources. As Blue mentioned, this can be done via tech and/or improvement. It makes much more sense doing it this way and frees up resources for much better ideas that warrant their own resources better.

EDIT - Cinnabar is a great idea. Though Lapis Lazuli is much more relevant and deals with this side of things anyway. You've got the relevant region on the map and it'd be a nice resource for those up there in the NW to sit on and control. Aids the likes of Taksila in being a rich and cultural civ.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I've rumbled through the editor in an attempt to learn everything I never knew about terrain.

Beyond a very basic familiarity - which you've got at this point - you don't need to worry about all the ins and outs of the terrain types until you are actually making a map or designing graphics. There is a lot to keep track of at the next level of understanding.* What terrains can be next to each other; what terrains affect each other; which terrains share numbers but have different graphics in the standard game - such as the various forests; etc..

Terrain to be added:
LM Mountain Passes
Mudflat-Mangrove Swamp
Coral Reefs
Thorn Scrub
Waterfall (I think you had a specific one in mind)

That list is what comes of mixing discussion of what ecoregions we want to include with how to represent them. In trying to sort it out into a usable list it's important to distinguish what the scenario needs to represent (underlinings) from how to do it given the limitations of the editor & the graphics:

• Need: Passes through impassable mountains such as the Himalayas Solution: Use the LM Hills slot with changed graphics. All mountain terrains will be flagged impassable.
• Mangroves and mudflats are quite different ecologies and distinct appearances. Need: In real world terms the questions to be answered are things like the desirability of representing the Rann of Kutch and/or the Sundarbans as terrains that are different from any other deltas and estuaries. Solution: Once those decisions are made then comes seeking possible solutions from the set of available terrain graphics slots and the related numbers - based on the desired effects in game. See more below in the discussion on other deltas.
• Need: Representing the presence of coral reefs in the island chains. Solution: depends on whether the reefs need to impede or block naval units. Also whether or not land units should be able to move onto them. If the latter then should they be settleable? With those questions answered the solution can be anything from a visually interesting decoration that makes no difference in game terms to use of a lm terrain that requires careful consideration of several other slots
• Need: Thorn scrub to be distinguished from desert. Solution: could be LM Desert if the majority of effects will be the same.
• The waterfall graphic I mentioned is just a variation within the Mountains pcx and has no game effect in any way distinct from the mountains.

As I posted above I'll take responsibility for keeping track of how to translate what we need into the available terrain types. In some cases all we need are graphics variations, in some cases numbers override graphics considerations. It can get as complex as one of those puzzles where you have to slide the numbers around a square to get them in sequence.*

Does the Irrawaddy Delta rate a special terrain?

The Rann is an area of seasonal salt flats/marsh nearly unique in the world. Most likely worthy of both distinct graphics & game effects. The Sundarbans are a complex mix of mud flats, mangroves and inhabitable islands. If mud flats, mangroves and salt marshes need to take up three terrain slots then other questions arise - such as what effects can be shared with other terrain slots and which need to be distinct. Only then can the types be assigned.

So there are two answers to the question about the Irrawaddy:

1. Answering a question with a question: Is the Irrawaddy Delta ecology different enough from other deltas that it should have unique graphics and or different game effects? If so that would be the third delta region under discussion. Every terrain type/slot given to representing various deltas reduces the options for distinguishing other terrains.
2. It was decided early on to keep the Eastern edge of the map - as much as possible - from extending beyond the watershed where the Ganges & Brahmaputra join. The Irrawaddy Delta does not appear on this map. Even so, the question was worth asking since it helps clarify some of the more general terrain issues.

* A broader explanation of the technical side of terrain graphics and related rules in biqs/maps is in my next post. Completely skippable if you want to stick with the Asoka scenario design discussion but not look behind the curtain.

 

[Blue Monkey]

*Down the rabbit hole of working with terrain files (not for the easily confused or faint of heart):

Spoiler :

High-level design map design is different than the technical slog

It’s similar to the differences between (a) deciding a new cavalry unit is needed in your scenario (b) getting the files in the right folders and (c) making a unit in poser, translating it into flics, etc., editing the descriptions in the ‘pedia, etc.​

Spoiler :

I've tried to avoid unnecessarily discussing the technical side of terrain files. At least one recent post has raised technical points that add to the confusion of people who don't need to be directly concerned with the complexities of dealing with terrain files. Now that the cats are out of the bag you get to see how we herd cats. Or make sausage out of them, depending on your preference.

There’s a lot that the person making the map must keep track of that other people on the team don’t necessarily need to. In the same way that a map maker doesn’t need to understand precise details of making & implementing units. That’s one of the advantages of a team vs. a solo effort.

The questions that arise amongst designers are pretty esoteric. After 10 years of experimentation the considerations are pretty well known and the methods well established. There is not a distinct and consistently used vocabulary for what is done and what files it is done to. This is mostly due to the original designers of Civ 3. Names used in one part of the editor are used differently in other parts. Graphics are divided across files differently than the way they are applied in the editor. I’ll show a practical example concerning forests below.

To start with something relatively easy to understand - What is LM terrain?

The simplest answer is that it allows some variation in graphics and or game effects while keeping some connection to the base terrain.
​

Spoiler :

LM inherits many of its game effects from the parent terrain. Some game effects must remain the same. Some of the effects may or may not differ. The graphics may or may not differ. These are the possible matches:

• Same effects + same graphics = no reason to use LM terrain.
• Same effects + different graphics = use for things like visually distinguishing Redwoods (temperate rainforest) from other forests while treating them exactly the same for gameplay purposes.
• Differing effects + same graphics = useful for things like LM Sea that will affect ships crossing it with no prior warning (at least the first time).
• Differing effects + different graphics = a way to get distinct terrains that share some attributes. This is how to get passes though impassible mountains. The LM Hills look like mountains but behave like hills.

What the graphics creator & map maker get to deal with once the basic design decisions are made

Someone on the design team ought to have a reasonable grasp of how to edit the map and terrain rules - maybe even how to edit graphics files - but not everyone needs to. It’s okay for one person to say “we need thorn scrub” and for another to deal with what differences are possible given the various combinations of terrain types and graphics files.
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Spoiler :

The examples shown use Forests. Similar considerations apply to working other terrain types.
The Terrain tab in the Scenario Rules Editor

This is where the terrain numbers and flags that define terrain behavior in the game are set
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Spoiler :

• Some things cannot ever be changed to distinguish LM from standard terrain. Those areas are highlighted in green. “Allow Cities” and “Impassable” are two very important settings that must be the same. There are many others.
• Some aspects of the LM terrain can be different. Those are highlighted in red. Things like movement costs, productivity, etc.
• Note that the name & the civilopedia entry name can differ from the standard terrain. The name change dos not change which pcx files are referenced, only what name shows up in various places in the editor & game. Changing the name in the Rules tab can help the designer remember the differences caused by using this terrain on the map, as seen below.

A Terrain Types pull down list in the Map Editor

Used for selecting terrain types and their associated graphics when editing the map
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Spoiler :

Composited to show whole list - normally only about a third is seen.

• Note that there is a separate entry for Pine Forest. This same choice will pull from different pcx, depending on the base terrain. In the third illustration (below) snowy pines are on tundra, but not on the other two base terrains.
• There is not a separate entry for Pine Forest on the Scenario Rules tab. This is one example where different graphics can be used but all the numbers & flags remain the same.
• The name associated with LM Forest in this list is the name given it in the Scenario Rules tab. With the standard settings “LM Forest” would show. Here it is “Forest”.

Terrain Graphics Files (pcx)

Then there are the various pcx files that work together to create the map as it appears in game
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Spoiler :

• Seven different forest combinations are presented in this image - plus jungle. Not all possible combinations necessarily appear here.
• Some types share the same numbers and flags in the rules. Yet they may still need to be considered separately. Plains Forest and Grassland Forest are strikingly different - visually.
• What terrain appears when they are cut down also needs to be considered. Removing jungle & removing deciduous forest both reveal grassland in this case. The same soil fertility results. If it’s truly important to a scenario there are ways to juggle graphics files & assigned rules to get special results. For example the deleterious results of slash and burn agriculture can be implemented in game terms. Make Tundra Forest look like jungle & Tundra have some leeched soil look. Use the Tundra rules to create a terrain that can be irrigated but with low yield. This an example of changing both graphics and numbers/flags.
• Take a look at the LM Forest in the illustration. It looks like Hills. These hills can have different movement costs than either the forests or the hills. But despite appearances these are Forests, not Hills. In such a situation if forests can be cleared then at least some hills can also be cleared. The same goes for determining whether or not the terrain can be settled. This is an example of changing graphics but being stuck with the same numbers/flags.

Many, many other situations arise. And this is just discussing forests. Dealing with other terrain types raises other issues - especially when considering visual differences. Which is why I made the chart (in an earlier post) that combines the visual combinations with the way the editor looks at things.

Hex-editing is possible but not probable

This is directly hacking the code in the biq. It’s completely beyond editing rules or changing graphics.
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Spoiler :

There are some terrain types that are buried in the source code but are not actually implemented in the game. It is possible - for example - to access LM Tundra and place it on the map. This uses what is known as hex-editing. The person doing this needs to be capable of using a hex-editing utility. They need the ability to accurately scan and edit game code expressed as arrays of hexadecimal numbers. Imagine doing everything outlined in the previous section, but with something that looks like this example from embryodead’s tutorial:

The least error can have very unpredictable results and will normally make the biq unusable. On top of that one needs to remember things like selecting LM forest actually places LM Hills on the map. It’s a tedious and very painstaking process that results in an edited biq where not all changes are easily accessible in the editor. Imho, it is best avoided unless there is absolutely no other way to accomplish a critical scenario requirement. Otoh at least one of the expanded editor projects has accessibility of these terrains on the to-do list. So maybe someday soon maps can easily be made and edited with even greater variety of terrain. Don’t hold your breathe.

Coming back around to how much technical detail any or all of us need to know to get this scenario playable:

It’s easy to get needlessly far off topic far too quickly. If someone posts a comment that seems esoteric it probably is. There are multiple threads devoted to the technical discussions involved in the arcana of terrain & mapping. PMing someone is another way to handle issues not directly relevant to designing this scenario.

Effective teamwork combines consensus building with single points of responsibility. We’re in agreement - at least for now - that I’m responsible to the team as whole for getting the map made. Part of what that means is that once there’s consensus what special ecoregions need to be represented I'll figure out how to make them fit in the limited terrain types and graphics files in a way that meets the needs of the scenario as a whole. Same goes for game effects like mountain passes. If needed, I'll seek help in the appropriate threads from those more experienced on the technical side.​