An Anti-Cottage Economy? (ACE) a.k.a. My culture slider is bigger than yours...

[TheMeInTeam]

Sure you can, but who wants to waste a dozen turns researching religious techs if you dont have a religion. It's better to get Aestethics. At least that's what I read around here.

A dozen turns? You can frequently research or trade into meditation/priesthood in a matter of <5 turns (sometimes I trade for poly instead of fast researching meditation, since it's on the lit path and will get me there faster too). Then you can just trade aesthetics or alpha for monarchy, which is a guaranteed +1 for the basic garrison you need.

If you have religion that you can use, it's even less useless.

But, you're not going to prove anything by pitting players of differing strengths against each other in a tech or "do well" race.

 

[Earthling]

We have a huge disagreement here. Imo slavery is one of the most powerful civics in the game and I try to stay in it whenever possible. Exceptions being when running a pure Hammer economy and when going for GPP for necessary bulbs. Keep on whipping and keep on pushing the culture slider.

It's been proven that slaving does not net you hammers in the long run - there's some working out the math here. At any rate it's less efficient than drafting so when you get to the point of the game where you can draft it's obsolete.

With stone or Industrious it's never a gambit but a simple matter of precise timing. Not everyone has enough skill to play w/out cottages.

It's always a gambit in the sense that you sacrifice your expansion and military. It's purely an abuse against the AI that wouldn't fly against human players, much like the CS-Oracle slingshot. Relying on stone is itself kinda gambit.

And yes, I do remember how someone went through a ton of work to set up a SE/CE comparison game, where no SE players showed up to compete. Not going to be putting effort into that myself again.

 

[Crusher1]

Addresses issues such as farms, vertical, horizontal, tech patch choices, whipping, not whipping, smaller cities real output vs larger cities output, etc.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=268007

It's been proven that slaving does not net you hammers in the long run - someone worked out the math here. At any rate it's less efficient than drafting so when you get to the point of the game where you can draft it's obsolete.

Nonsensical. You can only draft 3pt. Depending on how your land and civics are set up you can whip from every single city you have for 6-9 turns straight. That could easily translate to 15 cities at 1000 AD X 5 units = 75 units in 6--9 turns. Tell me, how in the hell is someone w/out farms and a high culture slider going to be able to match that? The same strategy with MONTY would be really scary.

It's always a gambit in the sense that you sacrifice your expansion and military. It's purely an abuse against the AI that wouldn't fly against human players, much like the CS-Oracle slingshot. Relying on stone is itself kinda gambit.

If you're IMP (w/stone) you can easily get 6 cities + by 1000 BC Mids which is no sacrifice at all. If you have Stone or are Industrious you can easily get 5 cities by 1000 BC which considering you have the Mids doesn't put you in a bad position.

The vast majority of people play SP, MP is irrelevant imo.

 

[Earthling]

Depending on how your land and civics are set up you can whip from every single city you have for 6-9 turns straight. That could easily translate to 15 cities at 1000 AD X 5 units = 75 units in 6--9 turns. Tell me, how in the hell is someone w/out farms and a high culture slider going to be able to match that? The same strategy with MONTY would be really scary.



If you're IMP you can easily get 6 cities + by 1000 BC Mids which is no sacrifice at all. If you have Stone or are Industrious you can easily get 5 cities by 1000 BC which considering you have the Mids doesn't put you in a bad position.

I can easily draft 5 units per turn even without the culture slider. I can easily rushbuy 10 units a turn around 1000 AD. If I'm IMP I can easily have 10+ cities by 1000BC which is looking much better. If I'm DARIUS I can easily have conquered a neighbor or two by then.

You're making ridiculous assumptions here with specific scenarios, even plain old game settings. Industrious/Imperialistic is exactly one trait combo. Having stone is a 1/4 or 1/5 chance. This doesn't mean this is a good general strategy. Moreover, the OP himself said he wasn't thinking of rushing the Pyramids, so this argument does nothing for the fact that it would be absolutely abysmal without representation.

Also, the man's a genius:

It is always inefficient to kill a citizen working a mined grassland hill.

At size 6, it becomes inefficient to kill off a mined plains hill.
At size 6, it becomes inefficient to kill off a plains forest.

At size 10, it becomes inefficient to kill off a mined desert hill.

At size 20, it becomes inefficient to kill off an engineer.

 

[Crusher1]

I can easily rushbuy 10 units a turn around 1000 AD.

I have games on this site in other threads demonstrating my talk in practice. I would love to see you produce more than 75 units in 8 turns by 1000 AD with Rush buy - good luck with that .

I can easily draft 5 units per turn

OH? The game only allows me 3 per turn on standard size maps. Small maps is 2pt. So if you are playing a HUGE map then take all the numbers I just gave you about drafting/whipping and push them way way higher making your argument less valid than it already is.

If I'm IMP I can easily have 10+ cities by 1000BC which is looking much better.

My personal best is 16 cities by 1000 BC, but then again game size and speed changes everything. You're simply talking semantics now. The basic element of my previous post stands squarely on its own 2 feet in normal circumstances.

Edit:

I suggest you follow this link which I gave previously who was started by Iranon, a much better player than me who has a better understanding than any other people in this thread to date.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=268007

 

[Earthling]

I have read the thread, and believe Iranon and whoever else in it still agree with what I've posted - whipping is simply not an efficient conversion. It's useful when you need something fast, eg. there's some benefit towards getting the unit/building out that has nothing to do with city yeilds. It doesn't give you more hammers/commerce or anything in the long run. Care to cite where Iranon states whipping a size, say, 15 city gives more hammers than just working tiles? You're doing him an injustice by implying that. It's also not worth my time playing out a game to prove something which is very obvious, and you would likely complain out/discount anyway. But I guarantee I can start a random Noble game and at 1000 AD rush 75+ units in 8 turns. And it wouldn't cost me 10 population per city that would cripple me for a long time.

 

[Crusher1]

whipping is simply not an efficient conversion. It's useful when you need something fast, eg. there's some benefit towards getting the unit/building out that has nothing to do with city yeilds. It doesn't give you more hammers/commerce or anything in the long run.

That's what you do in some FE's. It's no secret that their are cycles of research and cycles of the whip, then it's repeated over and over. Whipping infrastructure at any size is faster in most circumstances and is perfectly fine as long as the food is there. It doesn't have to be the best mathematical conversion to be the best choice.

I.E. Whipping a crap load of units out lets me take over a huge amount of land much sooner.
I.E. Whipping Universities out in every single city allows me to get Oxford up much sooner where over 50-70% of my empire wide research might come from. Who cares if I am getting a bad conversion if I am reaping a better long term advantage by doing so? I don't think I'm doing Iranon a disservice at all. The only disservice I am doing is by having a very "abrasive" tone in this thread but that was started by your initial post asking for this thread to be removed for this and that

 

[Earthling]

I did not ask for this thread to be removed, I don't know where you're talking about. People have been joking about Attacko and such from page one, and indeed poking fun at the OP. I'm sorry for the abrasive tone too, I'm also not the one ignoring the OP's points since I'm still trying to point out the merits/lack of with this idea.

PS: Whipping infrastructure is also NOT faster, rushbuying is way, way better when its available. Early game it's due to cities being small in size/infrastructure being cheap. Of course there are specific things like Oxford but that's still not even really late game, where you seem to be arguing the whip maintains efficiency. (Of course we all know workshops/watermills are way the most efficient late game anyway though hammer wise, but still, no need for slavery)

 

[Crusher1]

You're quote below my friend.

Specialists provide much lower yeilds until the late-game, without Pyramids, which are broken anyway. Tear down this article.

My discussion fits perfectly with the OP because I am discussing why I think the culture slider can and should be used in some games to put the player in a stronger position.

But I guarantee I can start a random Noble game and at 1000 AD rush 75+ units in 8 turns. And it wouldn't cost me 10 population per city that would cripple me for a long time.

I'm talking about normal game settings at Emperor/Immortal.



Some of Iranons quotes:

When setting up a SE keyed towards permanent gains (whipping infrastructure, settling specialists, slowly setting up a superior economy) I rely heavily on the 'mids.

I find Slavery much, much more powerful.

I'll use Caste System to complement Pacifism (for an ambitious lightbulb/liberalism plan. Steel I can usually get without such concessions) or State Property (grudgingly, as I prefer corporations if I have the breathing room to set them up)... but generally speaking I prefer to solve my production needs with slavery and to whip some specialist-enabling infrastructure rather than use the unlimited slots.

Sometimes, efficiency isn't the main factor. Slavery allows emergency garrisons, whipping a city into oblivion for getting an army fast and mass infrastructure whipping of new acquisitions, getting rid of unproductive striking citizens and keeping excessive maintenance down until the infrastructure to balance that is in place.

Representation works well with either... for me Representation synergises even better with Slavery because you can't channel all of your food surplus into the whip and better specialists ensures decent returns on spare food.

Etc, etc, etc.

The whole point? No this thread doesn't need to be removed. Yes the culture slider is a very strong game tactic which puts players in some of the potentially strongest positions possible, i.e. - huge amounts of troops + massive land grabs.

Edit:

If your reading this Iranon, sorry ^^. You may not like it =/. But what can I say, either way the important thing remains that you're game knowledge is easily one of the strongest of any active users.

In no way am I "saying" Iranon agrees with anything I am saying, but on the contrary, I am using the knowledge I have learned from him and then implemented into my own game play as the basis for why I believe what I do

 

[Earthling]

I believe you're confusing my words with Reagano's. I'll accept your mistake.

Also, again, perhaps you should ask whomever it was in this thread who suggested disregarding the mids/specialist economy in general? Do you honestly think that plain old farms + culture slider without this synergy is an ideal economy?

Edit: Nothing you've said has proven any point. Of course the whip is useful for getting stuff out fast or in wartime situations. That still doesn't mean it doesn't grow horribly inefficient by the late game. And it hardly makes a Drama/culture slider beeline a good economy. And disregarding all of MP shows a nice disdain for balance, I might as well just infinitely repeat that the Quechua rush is ideal if we're just focusing on gambits. But obviously that's not the whole story of the game.

 

[Crusher1]

I'll accept your mistake

That wasn't you? =D. It certainly sounds like something you would say . Right now after listening to you speak a while the vision I get is you "stoned" and trying to get past level one on Atari's "Pong".

Do you honestly think that plain old farms + culture slider without this synergy is an ideal economy?

Here is a previous post of mine: Agreed Bud, but only if I'm running a FE with Rep scientist where I can get big raw beakers.

Nothing you've said has proven any point. Of course the whip is useful for getting stuff out fast or in wartime situations. That still doesn't mean it doesn't grow horribly inefficient by the late game.

Everything I have said has proven a point. Proven the point that it is a perfectly viable strategy and works well and guess what? It actually wins games! Honestly! I pinky swear! If someone does have the Mids and is running Rep. then how do you suggest they increase their happiness after luxuries and trades?

And disregarding all of MP

This is the largest Oxymoron I have ever seen. MP is a joke. Their is no balance in MP. Do you wanna know what MP is all about? Here it goes...................

Starting position is > skill and therefore game balance is impossible. Take 2 people of identical skill - the 1st player has 3 fresh water corn, 1 pig, 2 gold, and 6 plain hills. The 2nd player has 1 plain cow with no hills. HUM? Who will win?

@ OP

The culture slider should be implemented in games where it will reap you the most benefits. Using a FE/SE is the toughest economy to run and imo the vast majority of people who think they suck simply lack the necessary skill to use them effectively, otherwise, why would they shoot them down? Their are plenty of people who have great success with the slider and Farms. So keep at it and good luck with improving your game - something you will definitely do if you can step out of the cottages shadow.

As to the Earthling and I comments - sorry to offend anyone if that has happened. Some people are simply a bit off and need correcting. Remember, I am not saying cottages are not viable - I am simply saying Representation/Farms/Specialist/Whipping/Culture slider is a perfectly acceptable strategy and has had a lot of success. Their is more to playing the game then simply "cottage spamming" and saying every other strategy sucks .

After all, check out my "Cottage Spam" walkthrough in my signature. - being able to play the game more than one way is a good thing =D.

 

[Earthling]

It's alright Crusher. This is roughly the vision I have of you: the user page on youtube of way21337.

You can also get happiness through religion, and civics, and future tech in case you didn't know.

There's nothing about starting positions that changes between single player and multiplayer btw. So you've basically just called the whole game a joke since it all depends on the land. You're entitled to an opinion, I know I can't change your mind.

BtW I routinely use other strategies as well. One of the first things I said in this thread was that everyone should know that using Representation with mids should work fine. I have never used anything like this OP's strategy without it though, and I still don't think it would be successfully.

 

[Crusher1]

This is me in Reality

http://www.myspace.com/cseanny

Edit:

There's nothing about starting positions that changes between single player and multiplayer btw. So you've basically just called the whole game a joke since it all depends on the land.

I have made a previous post around here somewhere about how much I hated randomly generated maps because they fail miserably at game balance and negatively effect the game. I believe every single game and opponent should have identical surroundings like in many RTS games. If you wanted a different atmosphere you simply play a different map. So yes, you are right, the whole game does a very poor job at "game balance". The only way to overcome this aspect is to stick to SP and suck up "luck" factors.

 

[Iranon]

Oh gods... Whipping is such a complex topic that I'm getting lost half the time myself. Fortunately I'm not the only one. That quote from DaveMcW for example is not good advice; if we followed that all food-neutral tile with something else (like grassland forst) would be too strong to be ever whipped away.

What he did is compare the exchange rate of whipping (1 = 30/size+10) with the apparent exchange rates of using tiles (1:3 for grassland mines, 1:2 for plains mines or forests etc). However, he neglected to address that the privilege of using the latter conversions takes up a citizen for each instance.
Incomplete refutation, but one that is actually possible to understand without tying one's brain in knots: A grassland mine (let's assume an equivalent workshop for a reason that will soon become apparent) needs a grassland farm to support for food-neutral 3 hammers. If we had farms on both tiles, we'd have 2 surplus food to play around with... according to the whip formula we'd break even at size 10 rather than size 6 as he stated.
There is also another oversight: the relevant size for the whipping formula isn't the size at the end of the cycle but the average during regrowth; size 10 in this example would mean a whip from 12 to 9 as we regrow once at size 9, 10, and 11 - average of 10.

That, however, only demonstrates that the whip is more efficient than many people think; it is, however, limited in scope. We can't use all of the surplus food for the whip without growing into unhappiness.
We can't use an all-farm as a pure production city well, but if we use an all-farm layout and grow some specialists to whip away we will get a combination of specialistturns and hammers that we can't reach until double digit sizes if we replace any farms with mines.
Whipping, regrowing with all farms to the cap, then stifling growth with mines would, in theory, beat an all-mine setup... but that requires a conspicuous amount of land that'll be left idle most of the time AND mostly pointless micromanagement unless it's an emergency where we need the production NOW.

I hope this makes it clearer... it would be a first.

Generally, using the whip well without specialist is a pain in the neck because we need to shuffle tiles around; in an SE whipping away specialists is usually fine. By the same token, the whip is strongest if land is the limiting factor instead of caps, especialiy in the late game. Improvements got so many bonuses and GPP have lost their value to an extent that most tiles are worth working even over REP specialists

***

Now to actually answer the quesitons:

Earthling: Ok, let's assume a size 15 city doing a 3-pop whip - effective size as per the whipping formula is therefore 13. Whipping gives 30/23 hammers per food or 45/23 with the Kremlin. That makes a post-Biology grassland farm give 2.61 or 3.91 net hammers when channeling its output into whipping.
A grassland farm can support 2 railroaded grassland mines (if we considered revolting to CS, we could assume workshops instead - more elegant comparison as it's on the same base terrain), for 2.67 hammers per tile. A grassland workshop under State Property gives a flat 3 hammers or 4 if you revolt to Caste System.
Note that we can't put all of our surplus food into production without accumulating anger, but assumming we stay in Slavery and have the Kremlin it's our best option of straight production. The good part: A city normally dedicated to economy - all farms, supporting specialists - is actually stronger than a production city (and not much weaker if we lack the Kremlin) until the accumulating unhappiness puts an end to the rampant slavery.

@ Crusher1: Wait, why should I be upset again? Sorry, head spinning from all this, and I see no contradictions...

 

[ABigCivFan]

Unless I'm missing something, or somebody is financial, (and even then, it's only a bit more commerce...) why would you build a single cottage?
Any thoughts?

When you move up to Immortal/Deity you will see that with the small land mass you could possibly get, the CE/SE discussion is often not that relavant.

For starters, not all your city might have food/irrigatable land; so what do you do on a dry grassland? Build a cottage.

When the Currency/Alphabet/COL/Music are not available, what do you do to keep your economy afloat? Build some cottages.

When you are happy-capped and have nothing to whip? Work cottages.

Most importantly your BEST bet to keep up with the AIs (in addition to bulbing/trading) is to maximize the commerce/research in your capital. And that is best achieved by combining cottages+Civil Service. Library+Academy+University+Palace+Trade routes+Oxford+150% commerce is by far the most significant stacking multiplier in the (early-mid) game. And this often results in more than 50% of your total empire beaker output.

I do agree about early emphasis on farms/mines/whip in most of the support cities.

Edit: Eathling, in general, I dont whip my capital. But for the other cities, whip them. Granary/Momument/Library/Courthouse/AP buildings/Forge/lighthouse/Market/Universities. This will keep your cities relatively small. And when you have these crucial improvements, you are free to switch to Caste/workshop or Emancipation/cottages and never whip anymore since you have much more hammer output with the newly avalialbe techs/civics. I can not see why you would not whip an AP temple for +2 when your city is pop 4 and working farms.

 

[Earthling]

Now to actually answer the quesitons:

Earthling: Ok, let's assume a size 15 city doing a 3-pop whip - effective size as per the whipping formula is therefore 13. Whipping gives 30/23 hammers per food or 45/23 with the Kremlin. That makes a post-Biology grassland farm give 2.61 or 3.91 net hammers when channeling its output into whipping.
A grassland farm can support 2 railroaded grassland mines (if we considered revolting to CS, we could assume workshops instead - more elegant comparison as it's on the same base terrain), for 2.67 hammers per tile. A grassland workshop under State Property gives a flat 3 hammers or 4 if you revolt to Caste System.
Note that we can't put all of our surplus food into production without accumulating anger, but assumming we stay in Slavery and have the Kremlin it's our best option of straight production. The good part: A city normally dedicated to economy - all farms, supporting specialists - is actually stronger than a production city (and not much weaker if we lack the Kremlin) until the accumulating unhappiness puts an end to the rampant slavery.

I appreciate what you've said here but the numbers still don't seem all that impressive for Slavery. First of all, the Kremlin is a huge benefit. Without it farms + slavery come nowhere close at all to flat out workshops (4 hammers/tile). But if you do grant the Kremlin, it's equally excellent for rushbuying as well; the same 15 pop city, if we made them all towns: each town gives 1 7 which equals 4.5 /tile under the right civics. Even if it's only say, 10 towns, and the rest a couple farms and mines, it still holds up rather well. And when you're not channeling straight production the city is way more useful for other means. Even better this isn't static production - you can put that money into ANY city on the map for whatever you need (airports in newly conquered cities anyone?) You can also effectively produce units in your cities with the most settled GG/other necessities (like naval cities), while whipping can't. So the numbers don't even flat out win even if you could whip infinitely without unhappiness.

 

[DaveMurray]

I have made a previous post around here somewhere about how much I hated randomly generated maps because they fail miserably at game balance and negatively effect the game. I believe every single game and opponent should have identical surroundings like in many RTS games. If you wanted a different atmosphere you simply play a different map. So yes, you are right, the whole game does a very poor job at "game balance". The only way to overcome this aspect is to stick to SP and suck up "luck" factors.

It's very easy to go into world builder and make your own maps. Also, I believe there's posts on these boards that will tell you how to edit the saves so that AI and barb starting techs and units are exactly what they're supposed to be in a normal game.

Also, without stone or industrious, mids are 500 hammers which can translate into a plethora of axes, settlers, workers, etc. Sure early mids is powerful like anything in civ it's all map dependent. You may only have room to expand to 2-3 cities before you hit vast desert or you're on a peninsula blocked in by the AI and then the mids doesn't seem like that good of an investment. Nothing in civ is set in stone so to all players out there, don't become convinced that one particular opening is going to be the best for all scenarios and situations.

Finally, saying one particular type of economy takes more skill then the other economy is kinda dumb considering all the random factors that take part in any one single game. The only true barometers of skill in this game are the leaders/civs you play and the difficulty level you play at.

 

[Crusher1]

Personally, when I happen to have the Mids I usually stick in slavery and only run 2 specialist in each city while building research/wealth/whipping as needed. Usually I can start a very successful 1st war with a combination of the whip/mines/drafting/and the slider - much faster than cottages which don't even have access to US yet.

However, my late game transition normally tranfers to Caste/workshops/wm/wm/specialist because I also believe their is a point in time where I lack the expertise needed to effeciently use slavery.

However, in my experience I always get more production from FEs of any type which makes war a lot easier. I have always found the most important factor is city numbers and placement.

If I am able to settle cities 3 tiles from each other across my conquered land I can easily have over 40 cities on a marginally medium sized space shortly after Communism. It takes more time to get started of course, but if you start early enough and whip + use overlapping tiles from cities you can find yourself in a very strong game position.

And of course, early use of the culture slider can help get you there

 

[Iranon]

@ Earthling: Agreed. For things that can be hurried, rushbuy is hard to impossible to beat... and we get free shipping of units/infrastructure to wherever we want them.

I mentioned I prefer pure economies, for exactly that reason. Mature towns are excellent for anything and let me skip smelly production multipliers until health is no issue. Regular production only compares if I need something that can't be hurried (many things on the way to a space victory) or I have production multipliers that far outstrip local gold multipliers (Heroic Epic or Ironworks city. I will want to produce a unit every turn in cities with xp/promotion bonuses; here relying on rushbuy would cause me to pay the markup for no hammers invested quite often). Still, total cottage spam is an entirely different approach with its own strength and weaknesses. It's easy, ruthlessly efficient and imo the best approach unless you really know what you're doing and why... but that wasn't the topic of this thread.



Note that to get 4 hammers per tile from workshops I need Caste System AND State Property; otherwise I'll need a farm for every 2 workshops resulting in the stated 8/3=2.67 hammers per tile. Forgoing corporations can be a big sacrifice in itself... which approach I go for depends on the overall strategic situation.

 

[Earthling]

Yeah, I'm a bit washed up arguing about economies lately, this one combined with the FfH forums, where ironically I'm the one arguing that (more food) => (slavery and similar production mechanics) is better. I do respect everybody who's really researched into the slavery mechanic; I've said it before that misunderstanding it is just one of the bigger pet peeves I have with strategies on the forums. I agree slavery is useful in the short term, can save you a ton of situations or help towards a specific goal. But it's not efficient, even more so when you have 3 food farms and other early game civics - all the time I see players wreck what could be a better economy whipping for the sake of whipping. And I know it's just random people, but every time I see a, say, 18 pop captured city whipped to size 4, I cringe. And the thread has veered off enough from the OP, I don't need to be messing more with it.

Edit: had to come back and add this in since I couldn't let myself be stupid enough to let it go. Grateful to that other thread that's been around today about Golden Ages to remind me.

-The above calculations are also neglecting another very huge opportunity cost of slavery - namely, that tile yeilds are often a lot better than we've been giving them credit for. In the early game, when you should almost always be working river tiles, you lose an extra commerce or two with every whip as your city has to regrow. Definitely advancing the no-whip rule of thumb with grassland hills, and it's still significant enough in general-whipping does cut into your early game commerce. But late game, this deficit can be even greater - I was wondering why the hammers/tile with mines seemed so low, and realized it was leaving out levees! So whipping away your pop can often lose you another hammer/pop/turn if you're not working a river tile. And then of course there's also the simple fact that vanilla farms are some of the worst improvements at all for Golden Ages, and as a player who tends to use Golden Ages later (Medieval +) rather than earlier, having a ton of farms which don't benefit from them either is another drawback. Towns/workshops/anything else does better. I can't see these factors doing anything but detract from the whip. Though with Cristo/Spiritual one can't say it absolutely always has no use, if you're desperate in war or something, I still really don't think it should be your late game economy. Unless you really have the urge to be cruel to your ungrateful citizens.