An atheist's choice

[ramatheson]

well , i would say that many now outspoken aetheists sound often as dogmatic as those with whom they debate and yet both tend to be bookish and physically unimposing.
Aetheism as a religion substitute in Civ would make more sense if each religion had traits, the suggestion that it give more Science sounds reasonable- however Budhism ought to give a Happiness bonus and Theocracy an Espionage bonus ect.

Well there are the Inquisitorials, etc. I play Rise of Mankind, and am not sure if that's from RoM or if it's in normal CIV. There is really so much more to Rise of Mankind, I don't know why anybody is NOT playing it.

 

[Wolfshanze]

since i dont believe in god i must be immoral and a misled soul.

I'm neither an atheist nor judging anybody (I'm actually a Christian married to an atheist, so I consider myself lenient on this subject)... but isn't that statement self-contradictory? If you're an atheist, you wouldn't even believe that you have a soul?!?!? (Isn't the very concept of a "soul" a religious belief?).

Once again, not judging anybody... just found that very comment kind-of amusing.

 

[ramatheson]

I totally forgot, but in Rise of Mankind, there is "Secularism" which adds 1 angry person per religion in the city, +25% research, +1 happy per theater, +2 happy per courthouse, and +1 happy person per jail, and of course no state religion.

 

[Chiyochan]

I think you're letting your lack of belief run your life a little to much if you seriously have to ask stuff like this, but then again I'm just an agnostic so there could be a really good reason for it that I'm not aware of.

its called flavor, customization, people want to make their civ fit their styles

I'm neither an atheist nor judging anybody (I'm actually a Christian married to an atheist, so I consider myself lenient on this subject)... but isn't that statement self-contradictory? If you're an atheist, you wouldn't even believe that you have a soul?!?!? (Isn't the very concept of a "soul" a religious belief?).

Once again, not judging anybody... just found that very comment kind-of amusing.

yes, A system of beliefs, including belief in the existence of at least one of the following: a human soul or spirit, a deity or higher being, or self after the death of one’s body; A number of customs and rituals associated with such beliefs; Anything that involves the association of people in a ...

 

[ramatheson]

I'm neither an atheist nor judging anybody (I'm actually a Christian married to an atheist, so I consider myself lenient on this subject)... but isn't that statement self-contradictory? If you're an atheist, you wouldn't even believe that you have a soul?!?!? (Isn't the very concept of a "soul" a religious belief?).

Once again, not judging anybody... just found that very comment kind-of amusing.

You may not believe in a god/gods, but you may believe in a sort of energy that unites all living things. Atheism, etymologically, means NO religion; however, in today's culture, Atheism means no belief in god(s). Generally, atheists do not believe in life after death, but there are many different types of atheists, just as there are many different types of people within every group. We can't assume anyone's beliefs simply because they are an "atheist."

 

[SenhorDaGuerra]

I'm neither an atheist nor judging anybody (I'm actually a Christian married to an atheist, so I consider myself lenient on this subject)... but isn't that statement self-contradictory? If you're an atheist, you wouldn't even believe that you have a soul?!?!? (Isn't the very concept of a "soul" a religious belief?).

Once again, not judging anybody... just found that very comment kind-of amusing.

I was being facetious, and i'm glad you saw the humour in it!

On another note, everyone should watch Zeitgeist. You might find it mildly entertaining, you might think its all rubbish, you might find it annoying, it might even change your life. Just watch it. What it will do is make you think.

Maybe we should keep this on topic, as we've all been warned by the moderator to keep it Civ related.

Personally, i think the way religion is portrayed in the game is perfect. It makes all religions equal, with no bonuses to any particular religion, which could and would upset people if that was the case.

 

[Skips]

I'm neither an atheist nor judging anybody (I'm actually a Christian married to an atheist, so I consider myself lenient on this subject)... but isn't that statement self-contradictory? If you're an atheist, you wouldn't even believe that you have a soul?!?!? (Isn't the very concept of a "soul" a religious belief?).

Once again, not judging anybody... just found that very comment kind-of amusing.

Actually the soul is something that I think everyone believes in, the problem is that the terminology gets diluted by Western everydayism. The soul is just what you are as a human, thoughts/memories/etc. the religious belief (of christians) anyway is that everyone has a spirit. The spirit being the part of you that is in contact with the spiritual realm or second heaven. Body/Soul/Spirit being the three parts that make up a human. But to be fair its not a topic thats very well taught...if it ever is. (Hey, any atheist reading this, you may now have a better concept of it than some christians. At least in England.)

...btw who called me an xtian earlier? When did x come to equal christ?

I was talking to my old boss the other day who completely floored me, the discussion turned to religion and he was like, yeah I'm a christian, but when I die I believe thats it, done, finito and I don't believe in a god.

I was kinda like ...so which part of your belief structure is christian?

 

[ChiefSparkY]

I was talking to my old boss the other day who completely floored me, the discussion turned to religion and he was like, yeah I'm a christian, but when I die I believe thats it, done, finito and I don't believe in a god.

I was kinda like ...so which part of your belief structure is christian?

There are so many people like this in the world today that it kind of makes surveys of religious groupings a little pointless. Here in Ireland, so many people still refer to themselves as Catholic or Protestant and maybe go to church once in a while but if you actually talk to them about their beliefs, they have very little to do with the official line of their church, never mind the Bible. A lot of them still have a sense of belonging to a religion because they don't want to upset their family or because it's just easier to go along with it.

It seems to me that their money and time could be spent in a different way and that is the reason for my original question - I'd like to have a way of having a religious free society IN THE GAME. (In real life, I absolutely support anyone's rights to believe in anything they want to believe in, as long as it doesn't impinge on me and my rights).

 

[Wenla]

Also, don't forget Sweden, Denmark, and Vietnam. Each of these countries consistently shows that over 80% of their population considers itself "atheist/agnostic."

I don't know about Vietnam, but when talking about Sweden and Denmark, people may consider themselfes as "atheist/agnostic", but majority of people in those countries still belongs (=are members of) of curch... I know, it's weird, but propably thinking (=atheist/agnostic) and traditions (=belonging to church) doesn't sound schitsofrenic for them selfs

I'm not against your opinion, but facts are facts.

Wenla

 

[ramatheson]

Actually the soul is something that I think everyone believes in,

Don't assume anything, please.

...btw who called me an xtian earlier? When did x come to equal christ?

I don't think it was me, but some choose to delete all references to Christ, as many (myself included) do not believe that he ever even existed, even as a man on this earth.

I was kinda like ...so which part of your belief structure is christian?

This is how I feel when dealing with most Christians. Most do not even follow ten percent of their own religion, but prefer it as a label to make themselves feel more secure and on higher ground than other people. I'm not saying you, I'm just saying that this is how most Christians I have known have been, myself included. I do know a number of great Christians that actually follow Christ's supposed teachings.

On another note, everyone should watch Zeitgeist.

Yeah, that's an interesting film. So is this one that is about gnosticism, religion, drug-use in human history, and mythology.

 

[ramatheson]

I don't know about Vietnam, but when talking about Sweden and Denmark, people may consider themselfes as "atheist/agnostic", but majority of people in those countries still belongs (=are members of) of curch... I know, it's weird, but propably thinking (=atheist/agnostic) and traditions (=belonging to church) doesn't sound schitsofrenic for them selfs

I'm not against your opinion, but facts are facts.

Wenla

Yeah, well 80% of Americans claim to be Xtians, but never go to church, and do not follow Christ, and do not know the first thing about the bible. Most could not even name the four Gospels, or the first five books of the bible for crying out loud. I'd say these people make up 75% of this 80%. Another 20% of them are "C and E" Xtians; the kind that only go on Christmas and Easter. The last 5% of the 80% are actual believers and practicing members of the faith.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

Yeah, well 80% of Americans claim to be Xtians, but never go to church, and do not follow Christ, and do not know the first thing about the bible. Most could not even name the four Gospels, or the first five books of the bible for crying out loud. I'd say these people make up 75% of this 80%. Another 20% of them are "C and E" Xtians; the kind that only go on Christmas and Easter. The last 5% of the 80% are actual believers and practicing members of the faith.

True as that may be, stop saying "Xtians", that is perhaps the stupidest thing I have ever heard, as stupid as XMas.

Eckstians?!

 

[ramatheson]

True as that may be, stop saying "Xtians", that is perhaps the stupidest thing I have ever heard, as stupid as XMas.

Eckstians?!

You are aware that the Greek letter "x" represents Christ, from the Greek letter chi (shaped like an X) of Christos (Christ), aren't you? It's easier than typing Christ over and over. It's shorthand.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

You are aware that the Greek letter "x" represents Christ, from the Greek letter chi (shaped like an X) of Christos (Christ), aren't you? It's easier than typing Christ over and over. It's shorthand.

We aren't speaking Greek. We are speaking English.

Shorthand isn't good for certain situations. I don't say "most Acans aren't actually Christian". (Acan makes only slightly less sense then Xtian)

 

[Kalimakhus]

Not having enough time to read all posts I read those on the first page and most of the ones on this page. It is quite interesting how this conversation has changed course especially considering that the one who started the thread has explicitly expressed his desire not to get involved into a religion/anti-religion debate.

Anyway, I am an atheist but I understand atheism as "Failing to believe in Gods". This means that I don't think that there is enough evidence of the existence of such a higher being with whatever is attributed to it by the different religions. It is true that many atheists (positively) believe in the non-existence of gods, but this is only one type of atheism.

Anyway back to the game I don't think atheism need to be represented by a separate civic. A true atheist leader would embrace free (belief) religion. An atheist doesn't hate religious people by default. We only refuse using religious beliefs to decide on what is wrong and right in our public issues. While some regimes claimed to be atheist and accordingly they practiced oppression against their believers citizenry, this IMO is against anything that atheism stands for (if it stands for anything as it is not a religion or an ideology).

 

[ramatheson]

We aren't speaking Greek. We are speaking English.

Shorthand isn't good for certain situations. I don't say "most Acans aren't actually Christian". (Acan makes only slightly less sense then Xtian)

You're right, I'm wrong. Praise Jesus!

In any case, I still cannot recommend Rise of Mankind enough. There are two great new civics: Secularism, and Free Religion, which both represent two versions of alternatives to religion.

 

[Yeekim]

It's funny to see, how some people say "Hey, it is stupid to believe in God, because the Book of Genesis can't be true, we have fossils to prove the world is older than 6000 years!"

I am not even going to explain, that if a bulk of one's original congregation probably has difficulties with counting beyond their fingers and toes, one might want to simplify and conceptualize a bit, like calling billion years a day etc
(What actually fascinates me, is how surprisingly well the Biblical creation myth corresponds to today's scientific knowledge, as compared to many others).

I just want to say, that every single Religion on this planet could be completely off the mark, and it would still not prove anything about (non)existence of God(s). Discovering a more or less obvious falsity in some holy text and drawing conclusion that there is no God is terribly far from any kind of logic.

For me, the existence of God is purely philosophical question that offers a very interesting debate, but has nothing to do with my actions in RL. The important question for me (for instance) is not whether the Ten Commandments were really given to Moses by God in person. It is not whether there really was somebody like Moses... or even whether there is God. The important question is whether these commandments are worthy to abide by. And here I must answer "yes"

I am an agnostic myself, but I may well be described as an "EC Christian", like ramatheson did. And stupid religion-bashing that you can see every now and then often pisses me off. Because religion is supposed to give people a feeling of unity. A feeling, that theirs is a community that shares common ideals and moral values. And thus it is supposed to make them strong.

History teaches us, that people who lose such unity are doomed to suffer and disappear, as only very rarely can religion be replaced with another sufficiently strong common denominator.

Courtesy to the original topic: I think the game's religious system is very well implemented. Plus, on higher levels, you have frequently more than enough reason to stay out of state religion (which can be seen as running an atheist state) - you do not want to piss off another half of the world...

 

[Skips]

Don't assume anything, please.

Sorry what I meant by this is that I think everyone believes they have thoughts and emotions and stuff, I'm just saying that soul is the name given to this by Christians.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Please stick the discussion to the game.

I think the way free religion is implemented right now is a little dull. 10% is pathetic, needs to be at least 25%, but the price would be no hapiness and cultural effects at all for religions.

People do and still will practice religion no matter what, and as a simulator of the alternate-possibilities that Earth can take, I must say that as a non-religious person myself, I firmly believe that the vast majority of people on this world will practice some form of religion, as long as humans exist, whether you (or we) like it or not. So you only have 2 real possibilities left:
- let people practice their religions
- encourage people to stop practicing their religions, and get yourself into a mess

 

[knugen]

Heck I dont really care it's just a game, but I did try to add State Atheism in a cold war mod I was making with IIRC +25% and +1 angry face