Analysis: The Opening Game Unraveled

[Grillick]

If we want to balance the elves, we have to do something about how many hammers they get.

I disagree. Kael has said explicitly that he doesn't want every civ to play the same. Why would it not be balancing to make them 'pay' for their added hammers with decreased commerce? Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

In what fantasy setting that you know of (barring FfH) are the elves widely known for their ability to produce massive armies, build huge structures, and generally make industrial metropolises? In what setting are elves known for being completely backwards technologically, using clubs while the rest of the world uses bows and metals? Answer me this, for that's exactly what the elves will be if we give them a commerce penalty to balance their massive hammer output.

 

[much2much]

First off, I just downloaded the new Warhammer mod and noticed they allow cottages in forests. Now as soon as I saw that this doesn't have a race restriction I was thinking they MUST have nerfed it somehow, and lo and behold they have. Forest cottages only grow to villages, not to towns. This is a fantastic idea, you get the immediate benefit of the hammer but at the expense of maximum commerce, which still makes deforested areas useful for commerce specialised cities. The early-mid game benefits still possibly outway this small disadvantage but at least it makes it a decision worth considering. In a research city you are more worried about maximum beakers than getting that library produced two turns sooner. On the other hand in general one hammer is worth more than one commerce.

Interesting... I wonder how things would balance out if the elves gained the ability to build in forests at Bronze Working, but not before then? Would significantly slow their early development, yet it wouldn't hurt them at all in the mid/endgame.

Tech requirement sounds interesting. Not Bronze Working though, as this is a path otherwise not necessarily chosen for Elves. Something else, maybe Way of the Forests? This makes beelining for this not so depressing if you don't get it first.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

THe final report is up, in it's adreneline-typed once-proofred form. Read it before I sanitize it of the embarassings boneheaded statements!

Edited it some, definitely made a couple points clearer. But still full of typos, horrible grammar, etc. God, how i love horrible grammar.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

That balance does seem logical when you just consider that the elves are overpowered. However, when you consider how the elves are overpowered, it becomes clear that this sort of thing wouldn't balance them very well.

Beakers
Ljosalfar- 5,663
Khazad- 5,534
Lanun- 5,147

They're ahead, but not by much. I'd say that a hundred beaker discrepancy could be attributed more to chance than anything else. It's certainly not a gamebreaker. Restricting their cottage growth would merely make this number fall below average.

Hammers
Ljosalfar- 4,184
Lanun- 2,304
Khazad- 2,266

Here's where the real difference is. Slowing cottage growth would slow the Arcane Lore benefit, true, but by the time Arcane Lore is researched, all of the cottages in this study, and many more besides, will have long grown into villages or towns.

If we want to balance the elves, we have to do something about how many hammers they get.

I fully agree with the concluding paragraph.

Edit: Concluding TWO paragraphs. The one I missed at first contains an important concept. Think of it as (that-word-I-hate-to-hear-more-than-any-other-during-fall) "momentum" during football. It's not just that at turn 200 Ljosalfar has mutated from foppish prancing lightweight into 800 lb steriod-munching gorilla ... the gorilla is also sprinting towards you at 50 MPH, is still gaining speed, and your job is to tackle him.

However, to be fair, the Khazad diverted just over 1,500 Commerce to gold production. Well, actually, it was far short of 1,500 Commerce, as much of it was earned under God King. Hmm. Since I just finished editing the final report a few minutes ago, that last sentance gave me a little bit of a as if formed in my brain. Read the report, and guess what that thought was.

But anyway, thanks to GK and other multipliers, 1 Gold is not always exactly equal to 1 Commerce. Blah blah, the upshot is I am certain adjustments to Khazad will also come from this study. The nice thing about Khazad is, it has a built in parametric equalizer. (The Vault)

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I disagree. Kael has said explicitly that he doesn't want every civ to play the same. Why would it not be balancing to make them 'pay' for their added hammers with decreased commerce? Seems reasonable to me.

That's still "doing something"

There are any number of ways to address the matter, ways that will leave a fun game. It sounds like we might be over the humpin agreeing on "doing something" though. And that's to my ears.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

First off, I just downloaded the new Warhammer mod and noticed they allow cottages in forests. Now as soon as I saw that this doesn't have a race restriction I was thinking they MUST have nerfed it somehow, and lo and behold they have. Forest cottages only grow to villages, not to towns. This is a fantastic idea, you get the immediate benefit of the hammer but at the expense of maximum commerce, which still makes deforested areas useful for commerce specialised cities. The early-mid game benefits still possibly outway this small disadvantage but at least it makes it a decision worth considering. In a research city you are more worried about maximum beakers than getting that library produced two turns sooner. On the other hand in general one hammer is worth more than one commerce.



Tech requirement sounds interesting. Not Bronze Working though, as this is a path otherwise not necessarily chosen for Elves. Something else, maybe Way of the Forests? This makes beelining for this not so depressing if you don't get it first.

But the other Warhammer difference is they allow everyone to do it. The minor portion of this change will not suffice when the major portion is missing.

Now the idea of moving benfits to Way of the Forest, I like that on the face of it.

(Beeline to Education/Cottages ASAP and you will never suffer the heartbreak of not inventing your religion first. )

(That's why Cottages are anissue for all civs, not just Ljosalfar.)

 

[Halancar]

(Beeline to Education/Cottages ASAP and you will never suffer the heartbreak of not inventing your religion first. )

Are you sure about that ? For Runes and Leaves, it seems to me that going straight for the religion tech would be more efficient.
Take the elves : while you research education, I get hunting. Can the extra commerce you generate allow you to research hunting AND way of the leaves before I research way of the leaves ? Even if you have your worker all produced and ready to make a cottage ?

And if I happen to start near a river with some ordinary plains and prairies (or a commerce giving resource, I get some commerce right there...

Wait, I just realized that you get education before mysticism. So I have an elder council first, but you get cottage sooner... this is going to be a race all right I still say that if I can get some commerce from the map (river, resources) I'll get leaves before you

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Are you sure about that ? For Runes and Leaves, it seems to me that going straight for the religion tech would be more efficient.
Take the elves : while you research education, I get hunting. Can the extra commerce you generate allow you to research hunting AND way of the leaves before I research way of the leaves ? Even if you have your worker all produced and ready to make a cottage ?

And if I happen to start near a river with some ordinary plains and prairies (or a commerce giving resource, I get some commerce right there...

Wait, I just realized that you get education before mysticism. So I have an elder council first, but you get cottage sooner... this is going to be a race all right I still say that if I can get some commerce from the map (river, resources) I'll get leaves before you

Well, to be fair, I I said my way was reliable, not neccesarily fastest... I was not thinking multi-player. I don't know if I would beat you to Leaves if you did nothing but try to get them. I do know I played four games to 200 turns and I was the first to invent a religion 3 f the 4 games. The only one to beat me? One guess.

In my Ljo test game, I could have invented all three early religions before turn 200, I believe. No othre civ invented one, so I would have been the first to invent each. Spiritual/cultureal leader, throw up temples for each of them in no time and pfft! What couldn't you do?

 

[Halancar]

AND ALL THIS MEANS?
But there are a few legitimate, tangible differences that provided Ljosalfar some small benefits. Their capitol was founded on a Hill/Plains. That situation means the city tile produces a 2nd hammer … very nice for Year 1. Also, the capitol was able to work an Oasis. 3 Food and 2 Commerce is also nice for turn 1.

And let us not forget, you are the one arguing that in an exponential growth game, an early advantage gets blown out of all proportion

There is a lot of uncertainty in this study,. But not so much to explain all the massive leads established by Ljosalfar in so many categories. The basic premise has been supported; a realm can develop rapidly by focusing on Cottages, and Ljosalfar is tremendously better at this than anyone else.

Conclusion: Ljosalfar is broken. Fatal flaws exist that must be addressed.

Right. They do too well. I expect them to do better than most, even have the best results in the early game (after all, they pay for it militarily in the endgame), but not by that much.

1> Starting Army: Most realms start with a Warrior and a Scout. So starting with two Scouts means starting with an early advantage gathering information and Goodies.

2> Starting Tech: Knowing Exploration means Ljo can go straight for Chants, then Education.

3> Woods Movement/Combat: The Scout pair gets to move faster through the most common hinderance, and fights better in the most desireable end-of-movment terrain. So exploration goes even faster yet.

4> Raging Barbarians Aren’t Very: None move faster than 1 tile/turns, and none will appear before the Capitol can build a defensive Warrior. With fast Woods movement, a 0 exp Elf Warrior often effectively moves as a unit with a Movement promotion.


6> Elven Workers: When Ljosalfar builds a Worker, it gets an Elven promotion. This means the Worker can enter a Forest and start construction of a Cottage all in one turn. This means the non-Industrious Ljosalfar build Cottages in Forest almost as fast as an Industrious Civ would, if it could. Unlike an Industrious Civ, Ljosalfar does not have to pause in the Forest to build a Road. Not only can Ljosalfar build the most valuable improvement in the most valuable common tile, they even get a mini-Industrious trait bonus while doing so.

10> TRAIL TO LEAVES: Not only is Fellowship of Leaves the ‘Natural’ religion for Ljosalfar, the way there contains Hunting. So as Ljosalfar works diligently to Way of the Leaves, they get as a by-product the ability to build tier-2 units.

11> ARCHERY: Only the Elves can afford to interrupt economic development to get an extra tier-2 Tech at this point. Since inventing it brings a Hero, invent it they usually do.

I agree entirely. Ljosalfar get an incredibly nice initial game setup, before elven cottages even enter the equation. If it makes life easier in the first 50 turns, they get it...
Add the earliest hero (save the Grigori adventurers), and hunters right in their natural development path, it is too much

7> COTTAGES: After running this study, I am of the opinion that a good deal of work is needed on the tech tree. One huge problem is the ability to build Cottages so early on. Cottages are the most powerful of the improvements, in they add very much value to a tile, and that they can ultimately be built on most land tiles. Note I list Cottages as a generic problem. I suspect the game as a whole would benefit from making Cottages a later invention.

I agree again, cottages come too early in the game.

And now for the forest cottage specific problems :

5> Early Worker Build: Worker builds are often put off until after City two is up. This is because it is hard to defend cities, Workers, and existing improvements against Raging Barbs. And after all, until a few Techs are known, there is nothing for a Worker to DO. But when you can build Cottages in woods, when Education is your 2nd invention, when your 0exp Warriors fight defensively in Forest like they were 3* 2 Move 17exp Warriors in Plains, hell, you start building Cottages in Forests as soon as you can.

8> FOREST COTTAGES: I have no confidence that this concept can be made to work in FfH, except, perhaps, as a late-game invention somewhat on a par with Lumbermills. The problems are, lack of tradeoffs, spamming, and benefits disproportionate to similar game functions.

a. Tradeoffs: One tile produces moderate Hammers, excellent Commerce, and almost always feeds itself, sometimes more. The player never has to weigh priorities.

b. Spamming: Put a Cottage in every Forest, as fast as possible. End of planning process

c. Disproportionate benefits: It is fine for a special resource tile to generate substantial Food, Hammers, and Commerce in one tile. It is not proportionate to be able to do this in virtually any tile. It is doubly disproportionate to be able to build this improvement in the same 6 turns it takes to move into and build a Cottage on Grassland.

9> GOD KING: The impact of Cottages was expected. But the impact of God King was not. Flood Plains are great for a Capitol, because they can be cottaged-up early. When the Capitol reaches its Happycap, excess Food is not needed, except, 3 Food per tile is still good for production when building Settlers and Workers. Plus the Cottage Commerce is collected all that time, of course. But Ljosalfar is not working 3 Food tiles, they are working a Forested Cottages. The Hammers from the Forest gain +50% from God King. But God King does not help other realms build these units (to the same extent) because other realm Capitols cannot afford to work 4 Forest tiles with no Commerce. In the test game, Ljosalfar was producing a Settler in 13 turns. Other realms took 26 turns. Ljosalfar built a Settler and a Hero (Gilden Silveric) in the same time (13 turns each) in the same time other Civs built just a Settler. After Ancient Forests crop up, this improves even more for Ljosalfar. God King comes into play around turn 80, and after that growth skyrockets.

There I disagree somewhat. I love the idea of forest improvement for elves. But they clearly come too early, particularly since they are that much easier to defend. Moving them back a little in the tech tree would help.

Also, elven cottages need to be nerfed. Cottages are already the best improvement in the game for sheer number of additional resources, so making them even better gives a significant advantage (not to mention having one tile produce food, hammer and commerce). Limiting their growth to village would do it, I think.

And God King is an incredibly powerful civic that early in the game, for all civs. I really think it should be moved back, just on general principles.

12> ANCIENT FORESTS: And for desert, Forest tiles that improve themselves. Not strictly a Ljosalfar issue, it becomes one when combined with Forest Cottages. The extra Food / Ancient Forest is not trivial. It can turn a 1 Food/turn backwater town into another city growing at a normal rate. But usually, it means turning a normal-grower into a fast-grower, or helps churn out a quick Worker. The cherry on top of desert is their ability to spawn a free tier-4 strength unit at times. Now, Ancients are not a huge factor in the early game, but they do act to make bad dynamics worse.

For every civ except Losalfar, Ancient forests are barely worth it compared to the usual improvments. Raze one to put a farm, put a lumbermill on the second while it is still a forest, and in the late game you are better off. For elves, they add a food to what is already the most productive setup of the game (forest+cottage).

Of course, there is a solution to all this : go capture yourself an elven worker...

OTHER THAN THAT, GOT ANY COMPLAINTS?

Damn straight. In addition to unanticipated synergies and obscure mathematical implications, there is one flat out mistake in Ljosalfar. Their tech tree costs are unlike the other civs. Khazad, Lanun, Clan of Embers each pay 337, 540, and 1080 beakers for Tier-1, -2, and –3 Tech respectively. Ljosalfar pays 315, 504, and1008 beakers…why?

(My guess is typo+tired proofreader eyes.)

The cost, of course, is dependent on the difficulty level, but if this is truly the case, this is a bug.

RECCOMENDATIONS

I don’t have answers for all of the issues. And what suggestions I have are still in the prototype stage. Frankly, I have spent 10 times as much time on busywork as I have thinking on the data. But there are a few examples of low-hanging fruit I think we can knck off right away. These are listed in the order from easiest/most likely/soonest to forget about it Unser.

1> Fix the Tech costs

Clearly

2> Start with 1 Warrior 1 Scout or even 2 Warriors. There is no reason for Ljosalfar to start with two Scouts, there is ample reason for them not to.

A possibility. Elves have too many good things in the early game, but we don't need to remove them all...

3> Two Words: Gilden Silveric

Too early, too close to what is already the best development branch for elves

4> Return the 1STR 2 Move unit to Raging Barbarians. I hated Barbarian Scouts in Vanilla Civ. 2 Move means the unit can enter a tile and pillage it the same turn. This makes defense require more units, maneuver outside cites, and makes Workers very hard to protect. This is needed for all Civs in general, IMO, not just Ljosalfar.

But scouts (the equivalent unit) cannot pillage tiles... Still, why not ? Or you could make +1 movement the favorite promotion for barbarians orc spearmans, or even randomly give it to some of them at creation. Nasty surprise for the unwary player.

5> Different starting Tech for Ljosalfar. They are hampered less than usual by the lack of 2 Move Warriors thanks to their speed in Forest, so they probably could survive the early loss. Crafting, perhaps, or Agriculture, but under no circumstances Arcane Chants. Perhaps combine this with #6?

6> Remove Elven promotion, Replace with Elven Tech, a la Seafaring. This corrects unintended situations such as the Infernals being able to build Elven Cottages with captured Elven Workers. The premise of Elven Cottages is that Elves live in them. A creature born to rend and destroy is not going to live in harmony with its surroundings just because someone passed along the deed to some hut shaped like a mushroom. (I hear this might cause Tech trading problems? Dunno, throwing it out there.)

A good idea. But keep the elven promotion, it's needed for the elf-slaying promotion (one of the reasons the elves are at a military disadvantage). On the other hand, a specific tech that unlocks the other elven advantages (and means the elves start without a normal level 1 tech) will help slow them down at the start. And the tech trading problem need to be fixed for the Lanun anyway.

7> God King: Forbid Ljosalfar from this Civic. I have hopes for this concept. It by itself might go a long way to “fixing” things. Also nice is that is it transitory … it addresses the problem in the early game, but goes away before the endgame. Combined with #7, we might have a winner. And really, are not all Elves haugh…accomplished creatures themselves, every one of them of phenomenally long life. Seems like these would be the last People to buy into a God-King. Say, who’s our King? It’s Jim – Why, he’s been alive a thousand years! Oh yeah Jim, I used to date his babysitter. Little brat, used to sip my beer when I was working on her bra. But it’s good to see some young blood in office. So if you ask me from a role-playing perspective this one is right up ElfAlley.

God King comes too early, IMHO. Bureaucracy in vanilla is way down the tech tree.

8> Remove Elven Cottages. Just bite the bullet and do it. Do it now when it’s easy. Look, Elves are supposed to revere the wilderness. The WILDerness. The Elf cities were special and hidden. You walked into a forest and you saw a forest. Not the east coast of the USA but with more trees. But in the interim let’s keep Elven everything else, Farms, plantations and the like. I think Farms might be a problem too, because Aristocracy does not take much longer to reach than God King. Then we are back to Food+Hammers+3Commerce / tile. But at least Farms do not improve over time like Cottages. Aristocracy eventually grows obsolete. So I say eliminate the big problem (Cottages) and lets see if the other potential problems are or are not. Thus some “flavor” can be retained if we’re lucky.

Too much. Nerf them yes, but don't remove them. The elves need a way to generate commerce from forests, or they won't be elves anymore

9> Ancient Forests: Two changes, first, no improvements can be in an AF, nor can one grow in a forest tile with and existing improvement. Yes, this incudes Roads. Ancient Forest sould be sacred, eh? And second, Ancient Forest should be giving out an extra Commerce. What is Commerce used to create? Technology. How do you get Technology? Thinking. What’s another word for thinking? Meditation. Where do tree-huggers meditate? Ancient Forests. Give AF a +1 Commerce, and that’s a sweet enough desert for me.

I agree entirely.

10> Cottages: This is beyond the scope of this study but I want it in this list. I am of strong hunch that Cottages and some other techs, perhaps, should be moved back in the Tech Tree. I see Cottages as a big flaw as is. Now for something completely different.
THE END

I agree. And while we are at it, lumbermills are too far back down the tree. Bring them to bronze working, bronze axes work (if not very well).

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Probably the most thorough writeup I've seen on FfH to date. Solid work. I was aiming to be the first to respond, but it looks like I've been beat to it. In any case, here's the obligatory big post responding to your ideas/conclusions before we get down to the small points.

1> Starting Army: Most realms start with a Warrior and a Scout. So starting with two Scouts means starting with an early advantage gathering information and Goodies.

This might not be universal. My optimum starting strategy is quite insular. I build warriors (after an initial worker) until I have three (sometimes four or more for raging barbs), as my city grows, then build a settler and send the warriors along with it. Starting with a warrior or two can get the second city up a few turns sooner, which can be quite valuable. Then again, goody huts can be powerful. It's a minor point.

9> GOD KING: The impact of Cottages was expected. But the impact of God King was not. Flood Plains are great for a Capitol, because they can be cottaged-up early. When the Capitol reaches its Happycap, excess Food is not needed, except, 3 Food per tile is still good for production when building Settlers and Workers. Plus the Cottage Commerce is collected all that time, of course. But Ljosalfar is not working 3 Food tiles, they are working a Forested Cottages. The Hammers from the Forest gain +50% from God King. But God King does not help other realms build these units (to the same extent) because other realm Capitols cannot afford to work 4 Forest tiles with no Commerce. In the test game, Ljosalfar was producing a Settler in 13 turns. Other realms took 26 turns. Ljosalfar built a Settler and a Hero (Gilden Silveric) in the same time (13 turns each) in the same time other Civs built just a Settler. After Ancient Forests crop up, this improves even more for Ljosalfar. God King comes into play around turn 80, and after that growth skyrockets.

A good point when considering the way things are now, but keep in mind that if we make elven cottages give less , then this will no longer be an issue.

10> TRAIL TO LEAVES: Not only is Fellowship of Leaves the ‘Natural’ religion for Ljosalfar, the way there contains Hunting. So as Ljosalfar works diligently to Way of the Leaves, they get as a by-product the ability to build tier-2 units.

Very important point. I just wanted to voice my agreement especially for that issue.

4> Return the 1STR 2 Move unit to Raging Barbarians. I hated Barbarian Scouts in Vanilla Civ. 2 Move means the unit can enter a tile and pillage it the same turn. This makes defense require more units, maneuver outside cites, and makes Workers very hard to protect. This is needed for all Civs in general, IMO, not just Ljosalfar.

We might be in disagreement here. First and foremost, workers ask for orders when an enemy is in an adjacent tile. They don't when there's an enemy within movement range, but outside any adjacent tile. FfH recon units are capable of attacking, and that means capturing, too. Further, even if they can't pillage, they can still make a city unable to work the tile they're on. I like the goblins of FfH. They fill the role of early, mass-produced, cannon fodder enemies, who are just there to make sure you have a strong enough defense and to just generally be an annoyance. Taking them out would not be a wise move.

6> Remove Elven promotion, Replace with Elven Tech, a la Seafaring. This corrects unintended situations such as the Infernals being able to build Elven Cottages with captured Elven Workers. The premise of Elven Cottages is that Elves live in them. A creature born to rend and destroy is not going to live in harmony with its surroundings just because someone passed along the deed to some hut shaped like a mushroom. (I hear this might cause Tech trading problems? Dunno, throwing it out there.)

A way to make cottage-in-forest abilities unusable for other Civs is important. Not sure if a tech is the way to go here, but it's an important factor to consider.

7> God King: Forbid Ljosalfar from this Civic. I have hopes for this concept. It by itself might go a long way to “fixing” things. Also nice is that is it transitory … it addresses the problem in the early game, but goes away before the endgame. Combined with #7, we might have a winner. And really, are not all Elves haugh…accomplished creatures themselves, every one of them of phenomenally long life. Seems like these would be the last People to buy into a God-King. Say, who’s our King? It’s Jim – Why, he’s been alive a thousand years! Oh yeah Jim, I used to date his babysitter. Little brat, used to sip my beer when I was working on her bra. But it’s good to see some young blood in office. So if you ask me from a role-playing perspective this one is right up ElfAlley.

Heh, if we're going to use this kind of logic, we're also going to have to forbid Infernal republics and Dwarven liberals. I'm of the opinion (previously more or less unvoiced) that the Civics in general are pretty scrambled up from where they should be. Put God King on religious law and Organized Religion on mysticism and I'll be happy.

8> Remove Elven Cottages. Just bite the bullet and do it. Do it now when it’s easy. Look, Elves are supposed to revere the wilderness. The WILDerness. The Elf cities were special and hidden. You walked into a forest and you saw a forest. Not the east coast of the USA but with more trees. But in the interim let’s keep Elven everything else, Farms, plantations and the like. I think Farms might be a problem too, because Aristocracy does not take much longer to reach than God King. Then we are back to Food+Hammers+3Commerce / tile. But at least Farms do not improve over time like Cottages. Aristocracy eventually grows obsolete. So I say eliminate the big problem (Cottages) and lets see if the other potential problems are or are not. Thus some “flavor” can be retained if we’re lucky.

It could be argued that elven cottages represent something different from the urban areas of other Civs, but I'm not going to go there. If we adjucate elven cottages properly, it might be possible to keep them in some form, but at the very least they should subtract the extra hammer from forests. Farms and such can probably stay the same, as Aristocracy does give -1 . 1/1/3 isn't too bad.

9> Ancient Forests: Two changes, first, no improvements can be in an AF, nor can one grow in a forest tile with and existing improvement. Yes, this incudes Roads. Ancient Forest sould be sacred, eh? And second, Ancient Forest should be giving out an extra Commerce. What is Commerce used to create? Technology. How do you get Technology? Thinking. What’s another word for thinking? Meditation. Where do tree-huggers meditate? Ancient Forests. Give AF a +1 Commerce, and that’s a sweet enough desert for me.

How about ancient forests give +1 to most Civs, but +1 to elves? Should balance it fairly well. Not sure about them not growing in tiles with improvements in them, though.

10> Cottages: This is beyond the scope of this study but I want it in this list. I am of strong hunch that Cottages and some other techs, perhaps, should be moved back in the Tech Tree. I see Cottages as a big flaw as is. Now for something completely different.

They really don't come much eariler than they did in vanilla Civ. As long as all Civs get them at the same time, I don't see too much of a problem with them.

Quite frankly, the Raging Barbarians are not so much a threat in FfH, as they are a game of Tetris. (Sorry, too good a line to not use.)

I had a sudden image of myself playing Tetris on my computer at three in the morning when, suddenly, the door to my room explodes and a furious orc brandishing an axe barges in. He then splits the CPU in two, then promply goes away. Just thought I'd mention that.

Very careful study. You've managed to put these truths into an incredibly persuasive and explanatory format. Go ahead and assume I more or less agree with everything you wrote that I didn't mention here. Good work!

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

OMGOMG thanks for actually reading all that.

And let us not forget, you are the one arguing that in an exponential growth game, an early advantage gets blown out of all proportion

Well, me, about 50,000 issues of various gaming magazines, and the equation why equals eks squared, argue thusly. But to be fair, I said this is why games have feedback loops to control such growth. Of course, that was wayyyy back in the thread header.

Right. They do too well. I expect them to do better than most, even have the best results in the early game (after all, they pay for it militarily in the endgame), but not by that much.

"Better" is fine. The scale of the "better" is not. I'm not arguing with you, as you clearly grok where I'm coming from. But since you took the trouble to reply, I may as well reciprocate with even more blather.

I agree entirely. Ljosalfar get an incredibly nice initial game setup, before elven cottages even enter the equation. If it makes life easier in the first 50 turns, they get it...
Add the earliest hero (save the Grigori adventurers), and hunters right in their natural development path, it is too much

All the ducks in a row, exactly.

I agree again, cottages come too early in the game.

I am glad to hear others see the same issue!

And now for the forest cottage specific problems :

There I disagree somewhat. I love the idea of forest improvement for elves. But they clearly come too early, particularly since they are that much easier to defend. Moving them back a little in the tech tree would help.

Also, elven cottages need to be nerfed. Cottages are already the best improvement in the game for sheer number of additional resources, so making them even better gives a significant advantage (not to mention having one tile produce food, hammer and commerce). Limiting their growth to village would do it, I think.

Moving them to the midgame in some manner is certainly a valid approach to try too.

And God King is an incredibly powerful civic that early in the game, for all civs. I really think it should be moved back, just on general principles.

Since I posted the report, it occurs to me that there is an exponential synergy between the Dwarven Vault and God King. Basically, GK lets the Khazad pile up the gold too fast in relation to how fast they can pile up the beakers. In this accounting system, DV effects are too strong for the benefits they bring. But this is not a hard fix. Just tone down the DV a tad.

As for moving GK itself, I'm not sure that's needed right now. It needs more thinking on how it impacts all the civs. From me, at least.

For every civ except Losalfar, Ancient forests are barely worth it compared to the usual improvments. Raze one to put a farm, put a lumbermill on the second while it is still a forest, and in the late game you are better off. For elves, they add a food to what is already the most productive setup of the game (forest+cottage).

Of course, there is a solution to all this : go capture yourself an elven worker...

Try that when your Army still consists of Warriors, and Elf Hunters blacken the horizon, led by Gilden Silveric.

A possibility. Elves have too many good things in the early game, but we don't need to remove them all...

I hope it's clear I do not intend every item on the list should be enacted. It's a list of ideas to get the ball rolling. To show what I mean by going at root causes

But scouts (the equivalent unit) cannot pillage tiles... Still, why not ? Or you could make +1 movement the favorite promotion for barbarians orc spearmans, or even randomly give it to some of them at creation. Nasty surprise for the unwary player.

There's something they did to me in vanialla civ I hated .. perhaps it was just threaten Workers. At teh very least, you can't just let that Worker go, knowing it will be three turns before the Goblin gets here. 2 move Barbarians complicate things, make things less certain.

A good idea. But keep the elven promotion, it's needed for the elf-slaying promotion (one of the reasons the elves are at a military disadvantage). On the other hand, a specific tech that unlocks the other elven advantages (and means the elves start without a normal level 1 tech) will help slow them down at the start. And the tech trading problem need to be fixed for the Lanun anyway.

Whole buncha implications I understand only imperfectly if at all. And I suspect Kael and Ko are going, "yeah yeah we though of that 15 months ago". I still run it up the flagpole. Your is up to you.

Too much. Nerf them yes, but don't remove them. The elves need a way to generate commerce from forests, or they won't be elves anymore

The commerce has to either be moderate (or else Druidmania will rule in the endgame) or it must be made substantial, but transitory. That's why I was thinking on the Aristocrat/Farmsintrees combo. Or so I say at this late our at night. Maybe it will lookdifferently tomorrow. My keyboard should, it probably won't have 3 'd' keys like this one. Seems to have a lot of spare keys, come to think on it.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Chand, I just read your post, but I am not gonna take the temptation I'm gonna go to

 

[Bad Player]

After a brief read of your initial posts I have to disagree with your methodology and therefore your results.

1) What is the endpoint you seek to measure? This needs to be defined. I would have put the endpoint as "achieving a victory condition". Your method sought to "6> Avoid hostilities and strive every turn to maximize long-term production". Therefore this methodology suits economic civs but a civ that can gain lots of ground early by rushing (maybe the Hippus) would be disadvantaged. Your results therefore are biased.

more later it's late

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

After a brief read of your initial posts I have to disagree with your methodology and therefore your results.

1) What is the endpoint you seek to measure? This needs to be defined. I would have put the endpoint as "achieving a victory condition". Your method sought to "6> Avoid hostilities and strive every turn to maximize long-term production". Therefore this methodology suits economic civs but a civ that can gain lots of ground early by rushing (maybe the Hippus) would be disadvantaged. Your results therefore are biased.

more later it's late

The"endpoint" was turn 200. Each realm was given the same amount of time to develop.. The realm that develops faster will be bigger at the end of the same fixed time period. That's why hostilties were avoided. The intent was to measure how the economies would do when they are not constrained. When maximum performance is known, you know in acual play, something less than maximum performance will be achieved.

The intent wwas to measure each Civs economic development in the early stages. You objection to the test is your perogative, of course, but really, you are not adding anything that was not already addressed in the introductions. And ultimately, you are of course quite free to run your own study.

Honestly, at this point, semantical counterarguments carry little weight with me. Critics are under the gun to supply their own contra-indicatiors, be they test games or at least step-by-step analysis of the game mechanics (e.g. the God King discussions.) Just saying, I would have designed my test differently, so nothing can possibly be learned from yours... sorry, no sale.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Probably the most thorough writeup I've seen on FfH to date. Solid work. I was aiming to be the first to respond, but it looks like I've been beat to it. In any case, here's the obligatory big post responding to your ideas/conclusions before we get down to the small points

This might not be universal. My optimum starting strategy is quite insular. I build warriors (after an initial worker) until I have three (sometimes four or more for raging barbs), as my city grows, then build a settler and send the warriors along with it. Starting with a warrior or two can get the second city up a few turns sooner, which can be quite valuable. Then again, goody huts can be powerful. It's a minor point.

Certainly. My comments are based on the observation that by turn 24, Ljosalfar had explored all of a rather large continent. They explored as well or better than the Clan with their Barbarian trait. That's when I see an issue. Ljo does not have a Fin leader, but they earn money like one. Ljo does not have an Industrious leader (do they? ) but their workers end up shaving turns from projects too. Ljo is not a Barbarian civ, but their Scout pair explores like one. My primary thought is not so much Ljo getting extra Goodie Huts, which can be bad enough if only in a splashy way, but pure simple knowledge. It's a different game when you don't know much of what's more than 6 tiles from your border.

A good point when considering the way things are now, but keep in mind that if we make elven cottages give less , then this will no longer be an issue.

Here's where a difference lies between we two. You still have hopes that Elven Cottages in Forests can be somehow made to work. My opinion is, a lot of the Design Team's effort will go into trying to make this abberation fit with the rest of the game, and in the end they will have to throw up their hands and chuck it in after all.

I hope your camp is right. I'm just reporting my gut instinct, is all.

We might be in disagreement here. First and foremost, workers ask for orders when an enemy is in an adjacent tile. They don't when there's an enemy within movement range, but outside any adjacent tile. FfH recon units are capable of attacking, and that means capturing, too. Further, even if they can't pillage, they can still make a city unable to work the tile they're on. I like the goblins of FfH. They fill the role of early, mass-produced, cannon fodder enemies, who are just there to make sure you have a strong enough defense and to just generally be an annoyance. Taking them out would not be a wise move.

It sounds here like you are agreeing with me, then switching gears at teh end. Well, anyway, this is how it goes in my experience:

When Barbs can move only 1 tile, you can send your workers out to work alone. Maybe not 100% of the time, but a lot. If a Barb comes along, you can calculate exactly how many turns you have before the Worker has to move. And if you forget, hey, the Worker will alert you itself when the Barb is one tile away. With 2-move Barbs, it's less simple. You can't just send a Warrior out to protect the Worker when the threat arrives. You end up in many if not most cases of needing one extra combat unit per worker unit, just to shadow it everywhere and make sure no damn Barbarian Scout zaps your Worker from out of the Fog of War. This simple change has some interesting potential I feel.

Heh, if we're going to use this kind of logic, we're also going to have to forbid Infernal republics and Dwarven liberals. I'm of the opinion (previously more or less unvoiced) that the Civics in general are pretty scrambled up from where they should be. Put God King on religious law and Organized Religion on mysticism and I'll be happy.

The logic was not included to provide rationale so much as it was intended to address the concerns of role-players.

It could be argued that elven cottages represent something different from the urban areas of other Civs, but I'm not going to go there. If we adjucate elven cottages properly, it might be possible to keep them in some form, but at the very least they should subtract the extra hammer from forests. Farms and such can probably stay the same, as Aristocracy does give -1 . 1/1/3 isn't too bad.

I'm not going there either. For my money the Kuioates concept strikes me as the "Elvish" civ. They have a very few, very develped civs. But it's too late to go there, either.

I think I made a mistake, and I think you did too, so let's kill 'em both.

For Grass/Forest/River tiles, under Arisotcracy, a Elven Farm should give 1 Food (Farm) -1 Food (Civic) for 2 food, 1 hammer, and +2 Commerce (civic) for 2 Commerce not the 3 I said. The forest there precludes the +1 River Commerce. Now, this is not a bad tile at all ... 5 resources is certainly above average. And then when the Ancient come it, it eventually goes to a 6 resource tile. This is not bad at all.

Perhaps, to steep the ideea in more flava, we should call Elven Farms something else? Elven Gatherers? ?

How about ancient forests give +1 to most Civs, but +1 to elves? Should balance it fairly well. Not sure about them not growing in tiles with improvements in them, though.

Another perfect fine idea. I, too, am not sure about the not-growing-in-improved-tiles too. It smacks of flava, but might have to take that backseat.

They really don't come much eariler than they did in vanilla Civ. As long as all Civs get them at the same time, I don't see too much of a problem with them.

Good mental discipline. You wrote this comment with the opening game firmly in your mind. My concern here really is as they say, beyond the scope of this study. My thought here really is that early Cottages causes much of the end-game doledrums. I theorize if Cottages were pushed back, overall R&D would go far slower in the opening game. This would in turn, with luck, mean more civs enter the mid-game phase more on par with one anothe than the do now. We are aiming for an endgame where the realms are different. Slowing Tech development by delaying Cottages seems to move towards that greater goal. And after all, shuoldn't the "best" improvement type come into play some time after the lesser improvement types?

I had a sudden image of myself playing Tetris on my computer at three in the morning when, suddenly, the door to my room explodes and a furious orc brandishing an axe barges in. He then splits the CPU in two, then promply goes away. Just thought I'd mention that.

You needed sleep when you posted, too.

Very careful study. You've managed to put these truths into an incredibly persuasive and explanatory format. Go ahead and assume I more or less agree with everything you wrote that I didn't mention here. Good work!

Thanks very kindly.

 

[Kael]

First of all, I can't thank you enough for all of this work. I have been dissapointed to see some of the bad feelings over discussing these issues, but I have been equally as impressed by those that are passionate and thoughtful about them.

But I am having some problem drawing conclusions from this. Mostly because of an issue in the testing. The Ljosalfar were run on a map with 8 civs, while all the others tests were done a map with 10 civs.

The amount of civs on the map effect quite a few things. The more civs on the map the higher the research times are (as it assumes more trading will take place). Thats why the ljosalfar game has faster research rates than the other games. Its also why the ljosalfar are able to spread out more and get more goody huts, less competition.

Im not saying that your conclusion isn't valid. It is fantastic data, its just hard for me to compare since a lower civ count is so favorable in the first 200 turns and our best performer has that advantage going for it.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

First of all, I can't thank you enough for all of this work. I have been dissapointed to see some of the bad feelings over discussing these issues, but I have been equally as impressed by those that are passionate and thoughtful about them.

But I am having some problem drawing conclusions from this. Mostly because of an issue in the testing. The Ljosalfar were run on a map with 8 civs, while all the others tests were done a map with 10 civs.

The amount of civs on the map effect quite a few things. The more civs on the map the higher the research times are (as it assumes more trading will take place). Thats why the ljosalfar game has faster research rates than the other games. Its also why the ljosalfar are able to spread out more and get more goody huts, less competition.

Im not saying that your conclusion isn't valid. It is fantastic data, its just hard for me to compare since a lower civ count is so favorable in the first 200 turns and our best performer has that advantage going for it.

Well, I didn't do anything other than assign Temperate and Normal Sea Level to the Factal map setting. I assume fewer civs appeared because that map was broken into smallish continents? I have no idea, but it does explain the disparity in research times.

As for being able to sprad out and get more goodie huts, this is a false presumption. There may have been 2 fewer civs on the map, but low odds or not one of them had its capitol about 8 tiles from mine. The Ljos were the only game where the AI interfered with spreading out.

As for Gooide Huts, I did not do a good job of recording them. The Clan got at I believe 14 of them. The other three got 2, 3, and 4 huts. I believe the Lanun notes mention a 4th hut, I seem to recal Khazad got only 2, so that leaves 3 Huts for Ljo in my test. For that they got 100g and I think +5exp for their scout.

I am disappointed to learn of the discrepancy in leaders. But it is not so hard to separate out this effect. The earlier in the game you look, the less of an effect it has. The Elf game techs were priced at ~93.3% the other games. Instead of getting their first invention on turn 33 (it was around there) they'd get it on turn 35 or 36. Education would come on turn 58 or 59, not turn 54. And God King would go into play on 86 or 87, instead of 81. So instead of having say, a 50 turn headstart they have a 46 turn headstart.

You make a valid point, I wish I knew then what I do now, but the bottom line is that the root causes discussion is still valid. It might take 93 beakers or it might take 100 beakers to earn a tech. But that does nothing to alter the game mechanics that earn you those beakers. When Ljo can build 3 Cottages in Forests (18t) in about the same time it takes everyone else to build 2 Cottages in Flood Plains (16t), Ljo is going to win the race every time.

Here's a root cause. Ljo can build more cottages per worker in the same amount of time, using tiles that are more valuable, on a terrain type that is at least 10 times as common.

Here's another root cause: Ljo can build two workers in the same amount of time it takes everyne else to build one.

Multiply Root Cause 1 and Root Cause 2: Now Ljo is bulding 6 Cottages in 18turns compared to 2 Flood Plain Cottages in 16 turns. This is an example of runaway exponential growth. This is what I mean about getting such a big lead, other civs just don't have the mathematical muscle to catch up. Not without something acting to dampen that amazing growth.

These root causes do not go away when the price of techs goes down by 6.7%. That differnence is significant, no mistaking. But it it not a matter of night and day, not in the early game. I take you at your word when you say you are not surehow to compare the Ljo apple to the other fruits in this basket. I hope this diatribe helps.

But like I said, I wish I knew then what I do now. For further tests, I have two superior ideas:

Designed playtest map

Or

Collective Mind

(upload a gamestart and let 20 players see what they can make of it.)

Anyway, I urge you to do something with Ljo. It is beyond unbiased dispute that design flaws exist.

 

[Kael]

0.15d will have elven workers workrate reduced from 100 to 80. I am also considering pulling the starting tech from them, but I think thats a big step.

If you test again (which I would love) I would love to get the results with 0.15d. I would suggest setting up a game without any of the civs in it you want to test. Take a worldbuilder save of the first turn, prior to building a city. Then you can edit that worldbuilder save with notepad and switch in the civilization you want to test.

That should give you exact results to compare against.

Note: this plan will not work for civs that have special pre-first turn features (barbarian trait civs). You will also need to adjust the worldbuilder to account for starting techs (and if you want you could test the ljosalfar with and without the starting exploration tech).

I would recommend the following tests:

Arendel of the Ljosalfar
Arendel of the Ljosalfar (without exploration)
Arturus of the Khazad
Cardith of the Kuriotates
Alexis of the Calabim

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

0.15d will have elven workers workrate reduced from 100 to 80. I am also considering pulling the starting tech from them, but I think thats a big step.

If you test again (which I would love) I would love to get the results with 0.15d. I would suggest setting up a game without any of the civs in it you want to test. Take a worldbuilder save of the first turn, prior to building a city. Then you can edit that worldbuilder save with notepad and switch in the civilization you want to test.

That should give you exact results to compare against.

Note: this plan will not work for civs that have special pre-first turn features (barbarian trait civs). You will also need to adjust the worldbuilder to account for starting techs (and if you want you could test the ljosalfar with and without the starting exploration tech).

I would recommend the following tests:

Arendel of the Ljosalfar
Arendel of the Ljosalfar (without exploration)
Arturus of the Khazad
Cardith of the Kuriotates
Alexis of the Calabim

Sweet! A slower elven workrate is a perfect way to ease into this. (That's what they get for insisting that 25% of the construction budget be devoted to roadside art.) I 100% support the notion of making small changes first.

Ahh, I fiddled with Worldbulder a small, small amount soon after starting Game 2. But I didn't figure out how to switch the settler nationality. But since it is do-able, that's a good idea.

There's ways to lessen the pain of a retest. Don't have to go all the way to turn 200, for one. 150 would probably be OK. And if I take standardized notes directly into an Excel fil I would save literally 5 work-days just transfering data and proofreading. :wallbang:

And the reports could be much more streamlined.

But first, I am gonna play me an actuall GAME of 0.15. I hear it came out recently.