Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
ANES01 Preliminary Rules Work
- Thread starter Symphony D.
- Start date
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
I like it.
And I second the surrender.
And I second the surrender.
Insane_Panda
Deity
WE SURRENDAH.
Your system sounds very complex. The mention of logarithmic functions just shut down my mind.
Your system sounds very complex. The mention of logarithmic functions just shut down my mind.
Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
LittleBoots
The Bloody Banner
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2006
- Messages
- 1,979
Well, I don't feel completely moronic for not seeing it, but, looking at the relationships in this light makes this all priceless. I love it!
Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
foolish icarus
Shipwreck
Ah. Never saw the movie. I presume the cost for e.g. 52 Green Brigades is the same as 12 Hardened Brigades.
Will recruitment/outfitting costs be the same as upkeep costs?
Your concept for the effect seems about right: Large rabbles more powerful than small elite teams (by some fairly small amount) but liable to take significant casualties. Seems to represent reality fairly well. There's no trade off between quantity and quality that is best for every country, but certainly a good (if not necessarily mathematical) sweet spot for each individual country based on the balance between their available manpower, urgency, and money, essentially.
Will you be making a distinction between "power" as in on the battlefield capabilities vs. perhaps something like "competence" which would deal with off-the-battlefield capabilities like speed of march, durability of morale, distance and time they can stay on campaign?
Some equivalent to zones of recruitment could be cool. Something to take into account the fact that yes, soldiers do grow old and retire and new, raw recruits take their place, and even if technology doesn't improve, the actual equipment itself is probably replaced over time. So you don't end up with the situation where that army this nation sent to one of its colonies 150 years ago is still an elite force because of that one war they fought 5 generations ago.
Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
foolish icarus
Shipwreck
I think that's workable.
You might consider combining Logistics and Equipment.
Leadership, I presume, is describing capabilities at an In-game officer level, not the general effectiveness of the player's military orders that turn (which might, I think, be an interesting and time saving idea. Still subjective, but it gets all the subjectivity out of the way all at once). If the former is indeed the case, it might be combined with Quality.
If you keep Logistics, how much of an impact will this
To your edit:
Isn't fixing that 'just' a matter of finding the right relative quality values and equipment modifiers?
You might consider combining Logistics and Equipment.
Leadership, I presume, is describing capabilities at an In-game officer level, not the general effectiveness of the player's military orders that turn (which might, I think, be an interesting and time saving idea. Still subjective, but it gets all the subjectivity out of the way all at once). If the former is indeed the case, it might be combined with Quality.
If you keep Logistics, how much of an impact will this
have? It's true, of course, but I would hope that the multipliers for more or less high tech equipment would stay rather close to 1. Yes, an armored vehicle needs more fuel and higher quality maintenance than a Toyota with 20 militiamen in the back. But it's also more reliable. Certain equipment, e.g. rifles, doesn't really cost more to maintain if they are well made and high tech than if they are cheap.
To your edit:
Isn't fixing that 'just' a matter of finding the right relative quality values and equipment modifiers?
Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
foolish icarus
Shipwreck
Indeed. A little bit of training will probably help a paratrooper or a tank crew more than a little bit of training will help a standard infantryman, but once that initial training is a given, a paratrooper or infantrymen will probably be able to leverage a lot of additional training more than a tank crew will. As you pointed out, it's very difficult for any amount of training or skill to successfully compensate for fighting a moderately competent opponent with a vastly superior fighter plane or naval warship. How (if you are going to) will you address this added level of potential complexity?
Kozmos
Jew Detective
I think your spiraling this into a level of vast complexity. I'll admit I'm not a big fan of numbers, why not just use common sense.
Yeah...don't make this too complex. I like numbers, but making NESes into number games just feels wrong. I also like the basic unit of a division, mainly because not every modern army uses brigades, but divisions are universal. Stalin didn't say "how many brigades has the Pope" after all. Other than that....
Oh, btw, I disagree strongly with your portrayal of WWII Russian generals as good and their troops as not-so-good. You can't get much better than a stolid Russian peasant, after all!
Oh, btw, I disagree strongly with your portrayal of WWII Russian generals as good and their troops as not-so-good. You can't get much better than a stolid Russian peasant, after all!
Kozmos
Jew Detective
True you cannot match the power of a Russian conscript.
jalapeno_dude
AKA Panda Judo Eel
So do all tactical orders give the same boost? That's what is seems like--if you write some kind of tactical orders, you get + .25.
That's not right. NESing has at least some story in it-- where is the place in this system for burning the fields before the enemy advance, or poisoning the supply trains, or using a right-weighted formation rather than just a simple assault? Tactics shouldn't just give you a larger range of possible numbers--they should be able to alter the outcome.
That's not right. NESing has at least some story in it-- where is the place in this system for burning the fields before the enemy advance, or poisoning the supply trains, or using a right-weighted formation rather than just a simple assault? Tactics shouldn't just give you a larger range of possible numbers--they should be able to alter the outcome.
Neverwonagame3
Self-Styled Intellectual
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,549
I agree with jalapeno_dude, and think that the system is barely usable. I personally can cope as long as it isn't made any more complex, and tactics have realistic outcomes.
This isn't that important, but i'd also like to be sure that if somebody's tactics rival those of Quintillus Varus, they suffer the consequences.
This isn't that important, but i'd also like to be sure that if somebody's tactics rival those of Quintillus Varus, they suffer the consequences.
Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
Symphony D:
It is a very complicated system, and as a player I would ignore most of it and just build the best troops I could afford with good leadership and then write really good orders.
I think that history shows that while all the things you include may be important, what determines victory boils down to:
Leadership (orders, tactics, good commanders)
Training and battle experience
Morale
While not suffering from the following:
Lack of supply
Being greatly outnumbered
Inferior equipment (muskets vs rifles)
Assaulting well fortified positions
Terrible position in the field
I would focus on those three and then use other items to off set advantages. Orders and tactics come from the player; battle experience develops over time; morale is usually a function of previous battle experience; equipment is determined by Age (or not?). That leaves training and command as variables to be determined by player choice. Add an army's positives, subtract for negatives and adjust for orders.
Look at some the great battles and you'll see:
Auerstadt, Austerlitz
Cannae
Chancellorsville
Roarkes Drift
Tobruk
It is a very complicated system, and as a player I would ignore most of it and just build the best troops I could afford with good leadership and then write really good orders.
I think that history shows that while all the things you include may be important, what determines victory boils down to:
Leadership (orders, tactics, good commanders)
Training and battle experience
Morale
While not suffering from the following:
Lack of supply
Being greatly outnumbered
Inferior equipment (muskets vs rifles)
Assaulting well fortified positions
Terrible position in the field
I would focus on those three and then use other items to off set advantages. Orders and tactics come from the player; battle experience develops over time; morale is usually a function of previous battle experience; equipment is determined by Age (or not?). That leaves training and command as variables to be determined by player choice. Add an army's positives, subtract for negatives and adjust for orders.
Look at some the great battles and you'll see:
Auerstadt, Austerlitz
Cannae
Chancellorsville
Roarkes Drift
Tobruk
Symphony D.
Deity
Retroactive deletion.
Insane_Panda
Deity
I've read, and I understand your system, Symphony, but what I'm not really understanding is the neccessity of all of this. Why, unless what you are shooting for is a board NES, do you want to simplify this all down to the numbers instead of a more intuitive approach common in most NESes? It seems like this would take more time for orders and more time for you to update (not that the math is exceedingly complex, its just that it would take time, especially for larger empires, to calculate everything). It seems like everything would just devolve into a system of numbers.
What, exactly, are the importance of these numbers in comparison to the tactics which are presented within the orders? Shall you be relying on the numbers for your decisions, or shall you take an approach similar to most other mods, and decide based on common sense, with the numbers as back up? I agree with Jalapeno_dude that tactics should not just give you a numerical boost in your chances and I am wondering how you will factor such things in.
What, exactly, are the importance of these numbers in comparison to the tactics which are presented within the orders? Shall you be relying on the numbers for your decisions, or shall you take an approach similar to most other mods, and decide based on common sense, with the numbers as back up? I agree with Jalapeno_dude that tactics should not just give you a numerical boost in your chances and I am wondering how you will factor such things in.
Similar threads
