Angels/Manes mechanic

[[to_xp]Gekko]

one thing that always bothered me is that when playing as Mercurian or Infernal, you really want to kill off civs of your same alignment to get more powerful, which really makes no sense at all. I mean it may make sense lore-wise, but mechanics wise it's just plain wrong and it really doesn't fit in with FFH's emphasis on "gameplay over lore" . I still think lore shouldn't be utterly trumped though. well here's my thought to make this mechanic better:

1) when a "good" unit is killed by the mercurians, they don't get an angel, and when an "evil" unit is killed by the infernals they don't get a mane. this way you still want units of your same alignment to get killed, but you can't just DoW them yourself which is silly, you have to get them as allies and into a war.

of course this is basically a nerf, so we now have to find a way to bring them back to the same powerlevel they used to be. so far I've come up with this idea:

2) Mercurians get a "redeeming" ability that turns evil units killed by a mercurian unit into angels. Infernals would get a "damnation" ability that works the same, but with good units becoming manes.

note: "good" unit doesn't mean a unit created by a good aligned civilization, but a unit with either empy, rok or order religion. "evil" means a unit with either OO, Esus or AV religion, or with death/entropy magic ( not 100% sure about the details, but it's the code that governs which units become manes and angels right now. I guess to make it more fair we could add good mana to the promos that make a unit considered "good" , to balance it with evil mana ) .


someone else might have completely different suggestions, but I think we can all agree that the current "DoW the guys who are supposed to be your friends" mechanic is silly. thoughts?

note2: I know Orbis recently overhauled this entire mechanic, too bad I can't find the documentation. still, there might be great ideas to steal if we ask Ahwaric about what he did and how he did it

 

[dommain]

I always loved stories on Valkyries on how they searched battlefield for warriors and reborn them as Einherjar. Why not add a similar feature either civilization wide or hero.

Chance for Mercurial recruitment
unable to Angles, Demons, Undead
+10% chance if owned by good civilization
-20% chance if owned by a evil civilization
+10% if killed by Infernal
+5% if killed by Evil civilization
-40% if killed by Mercurial
-20% if killed by a good civilization
each level of unit killed +2%
each turn (+.4% to +1% variable to map size and game speed); every time a evil unit or demons kills a good unit (+.2% to +.8% variable to game speed and map size); (-2% to to-5% variable to map size and game speed) for each time one is reborn (you get a choice to accepting the reborn; stats are shown)
you can add a ritual to add a %

Chance for Infernal recruitment
unable to Angles, Demons, Undead
+10% chance if owned by evil civilization
-20% chance if owned by good civilization
+10% if killed by Mercurial
+5% if killed by good civilization
-40% if killed by Infernal
-20% if killed by a evil civilization
each level of unit killed +2%
each turn (+.4% to +1% variable to map size and game speed); every time a good unit or Angle kills a evil unit (+.2% to +.8% variable to game speed and map size); (-2% to to-5% variable to map size and game speed) for each time one is reborn (you get a choice to accepting the reborn; stats are shown)
you can add a ritual to add a %

 

[Folket]

I do not agree with your analysis. Both Mercurians and Infernals want other civilizations to fight.

If you fight someone of the same power as you you will just die as many units as you "might" get. If you just let two civilization fight each other you get rewards without having to do anything.

When I play I prefer to keep civs of my alignment around sot hat I can get reinforcements over time. If I just kill them off I get some then no more.

 

[Tarquelne]

but I think we can all agree that the current "DoW the guys who are supposed to be your friends" mechanic is silly.

Nope. What's the problem?

 

[Kalina]

Nope. What's the problem?

Well, when playing as Mercurians it better to fight Order/Empyrian following civ then AV following civ, as you will get free units when killing good units. Not exactly a crusade against evil and demons

 

[Sephi]

yeah, but gettin good civs to fight evil civs is better than fighting good civs yourself.

 

[Tarquelne]

yeah, but gettin good civs to fight evil civs is better than fighting good civs yourself.

yeah #2: It's a choice between having an ally + some raw material and having an assured source of raw material. To me that sounds more like one of those sought-for "interesting decisions" rather than a problem.

That it's not a crusade against evil and demons would be a lore problem. But it's not, because it fits fine with the lore.

"You will attack Dis within the year."
"But Basium, my ally, we are not strong enough."
"You will be."
Basium lifts his mace.

 

[Brokenbone]

I don't think the mechanics are silly.

The Infernals are pleased with anyone and everyone dying, in fact, they'd be rather pleased to bring about the end of the world, AC100. It's the old "deal with the devil", "sold your soul" thing, those units following evil religions when they get dead, fall into Infernal clutches. Sounds like a good deal to me, if you play an "evil religion infested" civ, preserve your units if the Infernals are in the game, maybe go stomp the Infernal if they're worrisome in terms of dominating the world that you'd much prefer be under YOUR iron boot.

As to the Mercurians, yes they're "good", but arguably they're more driven to war than even the Bannor. Basium is not the type to sit on his hands, he's there to eradicate AV civs, and with any luck, plunge the entire world into war against AV (and their almost guaranteed followers, the Infernal). That includes a mountain of corpses from good-religion worshipping factions. I don't find it thematically inappropriate for the Mercurians to possibly wipe out say, the Bannor or anyone else in order to put them to more "proper" use as Angels, there was decent Basium fiction on this point for whichever Scenario where the Malakim, Bannor and Balseraphs go off to that little bit of green shoreline on the edge of a hellish kingdom, hunt Infernal for their own distinct reasons. Basium's content to have the humans swell his armies, it's where they'll be most effective in his ultimate and final war. I think you can apply that to games outside the scenarios too, Basium deciding that some goodly nation who is not "fighting the good fight" needs to be forced into it, beating on them with the purpose of getting angels and maybe vassalizing to direct them, unquestioningly in war sounds about right to me (sure more reliable than diplomacy, bribes, etc.).

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

honestly Infernals killing evil civs to get manes doesn't sound right to me but it's something I can live with seeing as they want to destroy everything so they don't really care.

Mercurians killing good civs to get angels otoh, that sounds REALLY wrong to me. I'd really love to see a mechanic that pushes them towards getting good civs to fight demons alongside with them, instead of just killing them outright.

 

[Tarquelne]

h
Mercurians killing good civs to get angels otoh, that sounds REALLY wrong to me.

Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the Angelic
Orders? And even if one were to suddenly
take me to its heart, I would vanish into its
stronger existence. For beauty is nothing but
the beginning of terror, that we are still able to bear,
and we revere it so, because it calmly disdains
to destroy us. Every Angel is terror.

(Rilke)

EDIT: Here is one of many translations. Should have provided a link to the "creepy poem". There's a fair amount more to it.

 

[Brokenbone]

Creepy poem!

...

I would say though that the Mercurians (and lots of other civs) are all meant to remind fans that the FFH universe is DARK FANTASY.

Mercurian angels are not issued harps, or bow and arrows with little hearts like Cupid. Terrifying blazing swords and caked with gore, yeah, I could see that a little better. If "harvesting" the souls of goodly folk a little early is what it takes to head off a fast moving Apocalypse, hell coming to Erebus and everything, then so be it. Tough job, but a holy calling!

 

[Till]

I don't think it would be right for evil units to become angels, but i do think something ought to be done to discourage the slaughter of allied civs. FFH may be Dark Fantasy, but Basium is still meant to be one of the good guys.

I would like it if Angels simply couldn't get XP from killing units with good alignment. That would leave the door open for "forced recruitment", while making sure that going after the bad guys remains the primary objective.

 

[Randomness]

I think it would be good to lower the percentage that Mercurians and Infernals get as angels/manes, when they are doing the fighting. They would still gain units, but 10% less than if those units died of other causes. To justify it in the lore, stonger minded people can remember who killed them, thus are not willing to join the cause that killed them.

 

[Brokenbone]

Similarly aligned civs are not necessarily allied civs, similar alignment just gives a small diplomatic bonus. Lots of other things could chip away at that in order to bring about war (you traded with our worst enemy! you refused to help us in war! our close borders spark tension! you have grown too big for us! etc.), and that's just on the numerical side, used really only by the AI to figure out when to flip out. There are lots of other strategic reasons for war (i.e., the ones players obey), even between civs of somewhat compatible world views.

What if your Mercurians are landlocked, the Infernals are across the ocean, and the only attractive/convenient port locations are owned by the Elohim? If I'm Basium, I'm preparing to annex that port.

What if the Bannor happened to overtake some Sheaim lands and captured, without razing, the AV holy city with Stigmata on the Unborn in it, and for the sake of argument, a city which built the Prophecy of Ragnarok? Sorry guys, I'll be razing the AV city and knocking a couple points off the AC, and I will stop you from introducing any further "Prophecy Marked" living units into the world, by wiping those cities from the face of Erebus. I will take as many of your misguided Priors, Crusaders, Paladins, and Valin Phanuel himself down if required to do so (and at least I could get a 100xp angel out of it)...

What if the peaceful ROK worshipping Khazad are at the bottom of the scoreboard, living in the arse-end of Erebus, and have no chance of ever meaningfully contributing to a holy war against the Veil, too stupid to use ships, too weak to send anything but slingers through six neighbouring lands to the front, etc.? If I sent a stack of twenty Mercurian Horse Archers "thataway", could I conquer their four cities in about four turns? Get five or ten Angels out of the mix, no forecast of my own casualties, and while maybe remote, another few cities that may justify their own maintenance...? Sorry dwarves, this is for the common good, I won't raze your goodly cities as that would bring us closer to Armageddon and we can't have that.

Anyhow, Basium's world view can be played kind of psychotic, and that's dandy. Mechanics that reward that aren't necessarily bad.

 

[Till]

I didn't mean allied in the gameplay sense, but in a broad sense of being on the same side. Looking at the lore, Basium is clearly obsessed with wiping out AV/Infernals, and i agree that he wouldn't hesitate to go after a good civ, if it gets in the way.

However, what mechanism reflects this in the game? The units and worldspell are aimed at demons, but there is nothing to reflect his drive which lead him to break the Compact and really force him to go after Hyborem...

From a pure gameplay perspective, it is much better to delay the battle with the infernals and roll up most of the good civs first. Sure, you'll rob yourself out of angel reinforcements, but you'll get more than enough units during the wars and train your army at the same time.
Better have a large, well trained, SOD than a uncertain and tickling stream of fresh units.

 

[Tarquelne]

The units and worldspell are aimed at demons, but there is nothing to reflect his drive which lead him to break the Compact and really force him to go after Hyborem...

Isn't there a mechanic forcing an almost constant state of war between Basium and evil civs and/or the Infernals?

****

Your own post goes a long way toward arguing why he *should* be attacking Good civs. Very "Dark fantasy" - If the demons don't get because you're not strong, the angels will. Because you're not strong enough.

I think what you're looking for is a way to encourage Basium to be nice.

 

[Till]

War is enforced, i think, but that doesn't mean you have to actively pursue it.

I'm looking for a way to make Basium not look like a carbon copy of Hyborem with different gfx. There should be something to reflect that he is driven by more than sheer self interest and lust for power. The dark fantasy setting allows for a good amount of utilitarian pragmatism, but there ought to be something to set his approach apart from Hyborem.

It seems to me that the main difference at the moment is that Basium gets locked into an alliance after summoning, while Hyborem is not. But why should Basium feel compelled to honour it? Maybe he was summoned by a weakling civ - shouldn't he wipe them out rather than dragging them along as dead weight?

If Mercurians no longer get xp from killing good units, there is still an incentive to crush good civs who aren't pulling their weight, but you also have to actually fight evil civs, rather than being in a pro forma war until you feel ready.

 

[Neomega]

How about when mercurians kill evil or evil religion living units, there is a 10% chance for them to be captured, with a "redeemed" promotion. This promotion gives them +1 defense, -1 attack, and their religion is changed to the Mercurian state religion.

Likewise, when Infernals kill a good or good religion unit, there is a 10% chance for them to be captured, with a "possessed" promotion. This promotion gives them +1 attack, -1 defense, and their religion is changed to the Infernal state religion.

Both also give the loyalty effect, so it can happen only once.

 

[Folket]

The more I read here the more happy I'm with how it works.

 

[Fafnir13]

Basiums is not really a "good guy." He's more of anti-hero.
I'm fine with how the system works, except that I'm not that keen to ever play as Basium. I love storming the world as Hyborem, but one city in the middle of an empire? Eh...not my kind of thing really.