Animals in version 22h

[beorn]

I like the fact that the wolves and bears and sometimes lions make parts of the map very difficult to explore, let alone settle -- I definitely would not want to go back to to the versions where exploration is easy with a lone hunter.

However... in my opinion, the price is that game after game, I am under no pressure from barbs in my own territory, and for me that feels like a step backward. Vanilla civ made it necessary to get to axemen, just to securely defend what you already had settled, and FFH improved on this. Lizardmen put very intelligent pressure on you, and orcs, although not as strong, would cheefully remove all your imrovements if you lacked offensive firepower to take them out. And these suckers came in large enough numbers that you could very possibly lose a unit before it had healed. The goblins tended to just be experience-on-the-hoof for your units, including adepts, but the others were an important part of the game.

Now, invading barbs are a rarity, and, to make it worse, animals that end up within your cultural borders go totally passive. Your worker can sit right next to an animal, and as long as he is within his border, the bear or wolf seems to have no appetite at all.

This lack of barb pressure not only removes drama from the first half of the game, but it also takes away a significant AI advantage. At any level higher than noble, the AI has an advantage against barbs, and, as best as I can tell, the game is programmed decently to have the AI react pretty well to barb incursions -- so this is one place the AI CAN compete with a human.

Just my opinions.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Have you tried snarko's options mod yet? One of his options, Animal frenzy, helps solve the problem by making barbs and animals attack other animals. That reduces the amount of animals, and give the barbs some free xp

 

[Sarisin]

I think a lot has to do with the size of the map you are playing and the number of AI civs you select. I always choose a huge map and usually the default number of AI civs - 9. I tried a game with 16 civs on the huge map and, even, with the raging barb selection, there wasn't much of a barb challenge as the map filled quickly and the barbs were thinned out in short order.

I see what you are saying about the animals affecting play. I have found the raging barbs are certainly not as bad as they were previously. However, I have also seen that the AI civs will often take out animals, dens, etc. paving the way for more 'real' barbs. Again, it depends on how much open space you have available.

On you last point, I'm not sure I agree. I have found that the AI civs are not usually prepared for raging barbs. They expand first, defend second. Now, if they are lucky and the barbs don't target them early on, they can jump out to a big lead in the points race.

However, if the barbs target them, their civs will be destroyed in short order. One Warrior defender per city just won't cut it.

In the last few games I have played (Huge Fantasy map, Prince, Marathon) two AI civs have been eliminated in the early going. This, IMO, makes the game a little tougher as the huge map with only a total of 8 civs takes a lot longer time to fill up. I am in the year 1,000 now and only about 50% of the map is settled. This leaves a lot of room for the barbs to spawn.

But, yes, back to your original point, there are still quite a few bears and elephants on the map too!

One more thing that I have found is when you have a lot of open spaces like that, barb cities pop up like weeds with connecting roads. If you try to go and take them out, the counter moves up and more pop up. I find managing the barb city explosion about as challenging as the 'raging' barbs themselves. The AI civs, by the way, make the counter move along quickly as they always go out to raze barb cities and the new ones that take their place.

In a Marathon game, IMO, the counter moves too quickly for this reason.

 

[xanaqui42]

My main comment is that Giant Spiders create Baby Spiders too frequently - you can effectively get an unlimited size army cheaply once you have Hunting and Animal Handling. Even worse, they're useful as military units until you get tier III offensive units, and they are useful scouts beyond that time period. Frankly, until I have a significant number of Tier III offensive units, I get far more baby Spiders than I can use.

I'd reduce the automatic Baby Spider generation to a chance of Baby Spider generation (doubled for the Svartalfar), at least for player-owned Giant Spiders.

I guess that my other comment is that a way to reduce over-population of animals would be to have random animals start entering cultural borders and (potentially) attacking cities (instead of, or in addition to, a hard cap).

 

[Halancar]

I too, have found that the maps sometimes fill up with animals (particularly wolves), meaning that the barbs have no place to spawn. And by fill up, I mean an average of 2-3 animals per square. That makes for a quiet game inside the borders, but some serious hassle when trying to found a new city. Other times, you can hardly find one animal to capture, and you get the full raging barbarians that you ordered.

While that diversity is good and makes for more replayability, I think the more extreme cases where you have 4 wolf packs on each square outside your borders are too much. Perhaps something could be done about reducing their numbers ?

 

[Kael]

In 0.23 wolves will stops spawning if there is less than 10 unowned tiled per wolf already on that continent (increased from per 5 tiles in 0.22h). Lions and Bears will stop spawning if there is less that 6 unowned tiles per animal on that continent (increased from 3).

Also the barbarian spawn rate will no longer be effected by the amount of animals on that continent. Previously barbarians considered how many barian units were on that continent (including animals) before checking to see if they would create more. Since there were so many animals barbarians were spawning less and less. Now the two values are independant.

Im not sure what to do with the Giant Spiders, I'll have to think about it.

 

[vorshlumpf]

My current Emperor game is on a huge highlands map with 16 total civs. Two civs got knocked out early (I assume from skeletons), but the rest are still around at turn 550.

Raging barbs is on - they are not overwhelming but they are definitely everywhere. Animals have not been excessive in my opinion - there are an awful lot of them, especially bear dens in the cold south, but there is still a lot of unsettled space even now.

The main thing I noticed in this game was that the first 100 turns (approximately) had very slow inter-turns. I literally used the time to do some of the things I've been neglecting lately (like cleaning up the house). However, now the time delay is back to where I expect it to be.

As far as the AC is concerned, mine is currently at 36. I don't feel this is too much, especially since the AV has been around for about 100 turns.

I certainly welcome the splitting of animal and barb units. This should make raging barbs more raging.

As for the spiders, perhaps the babies should not be automatically given to the owner of the spider (unless Svartalfar). I'm not sure how to make it so that capturing them isn't merely a minor inconvenience, though.

 

[EvilBob22]

Im not sure what to do with the Giant Spiders, I'll have to think about it.

What about a mechanic similar to the werewolves? (Chance to spawn a new baby spider reduced for each spider/baby spider already in the world.) It could work for everyone, including barbarians.

 

[CyberChrist]

Im not sure what to do with the Giant Spiders, I'll have to think about it.

How about giving thee Giant Spiders a temporary promotion when they spawn a Baby Spider and while they have this promotion they can't spawn new Baby Spiders?

This 'blocker' promotion could then be cleared when one or more conditions was met. Possible conditions could be:
- Giant Spider must be at a certain % of health
- all Giant Spiders get promotion cleared on a global scale every x turns
- small random chance every turn for the promotion to clear

 

[CyberChrist]

Speaking of Baby Spiders ... shouldn't they be able to upgrade to a Giant Spider themselves once they have 'eaten' enough?

 

[xanaqui42]

Speaking of Baby Spiders ... shouldn't they be able to upgrade to a Giant Spider themselves once they have 'eaten' enough?

You are aware, I assume, that they do automatically upgrade. It takes an average of roughly 33 turns while they are unwounded.

 

[Sarisin]

You are aware, I assume, that they do automatically upgrade. It takes an average of roughly 33 turns while they are unwounded.

Is it really that many turns? In my Marathon game it seems like baby spiders were becoming giant spiders faster.

Yes, you are right. Building up a spider army is an interesting exploit you can use. As Hidden Nationality they can go in, take out weak AI city defenders, and wait for the real barbs to come in and capture/raze the cities.

It is another of those games within in a game, and probably needs to be adjusted, although it was fun while it lasted.

 

[Sarisin]

My current Emperor game is on a huge highlands map with 16 total civs. Two civs got knocked out early (I assume from skeletons), but the rest are still around at turn 550.

Raging barbs is on - they are not overwhelming but they are definitely everywhere. Animals have not been excessive in my opinion - there are an awful lot of them, especially bear dens in the cold south, but there is still a lot of unsettled space even now.

The main thing I noticed in this game was that the first 100 turns (approximately) had very slow inter-turns. I literally used the time to do some of the things I've been neglecting lately (like cleaning up the house). However, now the time delay is back to where I expect it to be.

As far as the AC is concerned, mine is currently at 36. I don't feel this is too much, especially since the AV has been around for about 100 turns.

I certainly welcome the splitting of animal and barb units. This should make raging barbs more raging.

As for the spiders, perhaps the babies should not be automatically given to the owner of the spider (unless Svartalfar). I'm not sure how to make it so that capturing them isn't merely a minor inconvenience, though.

V, you didn't say, but I seem to recall you saying you play your games at Marathon speed? Correct on this one.

If the counter is at 36 on turn 550 I think it is too fast. Remember you still have about 1,300 turns left in the game!

I would like to hear what you think about 2 things as we play very similar games/maps:

1. When the Horsemen appear in your Marathon games, do you have anything more that Level II units with maybe the start of Level III and maybe a hero? Do you have Courage to even be able to attack the Horsemen?

I find it is really tough to get to those Rangers, etc. that would at least do some damage to the Horsemen and then kill them. Also, if you don't have Spirit Mana/Courage, you are really dead.

2. How do you handle the popping up of barb cities on the map, especially in those open spaces, or near your borders?

If you raze the barb cities, like the AI does, the counter will increase, IMO, too fast. If you let them stand, you will find the Horsemen appear in those cities. I think a Horseman has to spawn in a barb city and will only spawn elsewhere if there are no barb cities.

Anyway, again, having the 16 starting civs vs. the 10 I play with changes the dynamic a bit, but I am interested in hearing your opinion on the 2 items above. Thanks.

 

[ChaoticWanderer]

Is their anyway the giant spiders are only invisible in jungles and forests? because it makes no sense for a giant spider to be invisible on grasslands plains and deserts because with their size anyone could see them

 

[vorshlumpf]

Is their anyway the giant spiders are only invisible in jungles and forests? because it makes no sense for a giant spider to be invisible on grasslands plains and deserts because with their size anyone could see them

This is an interpretation issue, such as the one Sarasin and I briefly discussed on the bug thread. Are they invisible because they hide in trees? That's my assumption. However, perhaps they can adapt to any environment, digging into the sand, creating pit traps in the open plains...

Personally, I like your suggestion. If spider invisibility is replaced with Forest Stealth, it would make them less powerful. The problem is convincing the AI to keep Spiders in the forest (currently they only move when bumped by a friendly unit or culture or when attacking an adjacent unit, I believe).

 

[BeefontheBone]

Well, that makes sense - they'd hang around in forests unless forced out most of the time.

 

[vorshlumpf]

V, you didn't say, but I seem to recall you saying you play your games at Marathon speed? Correct on this one.

Sorry, yeah I forgot to mention game speed, for some reason. Yes, I play on marathon.

If the counter is at 36 on turn 550 I think it is too fast. Remember you still have about 1,300 turns left in the game!

It's now turn 600-ish, and I recently got blighted. The Calabim (who are Ashen Veil) are getting their butts kicked by the Elohim (who are Octopus Overlord), so I'm not sure how much more AV will be manipulating the AC. The count still seems fine to me.

1. When the Horsemen appear in your Marathon games, do you have anything more that Level II units with maybe the start of Level III and maybe a hero? Do you have Courage to even be able to attack the Horsemen?

So far, I've never had any trouble with the Horsemen in my games. However, keep in mind that I've played very few Fire games. With my preferred speed being Marathon, and with a very busy schedule up until recently, I just haven't as much time for FfH.

My military is currently quite comfortable with it's iron-weaponed dwarven warriors (many of whom are high level thanks to the barbarians). By the time the horsemen appear, if ever, I'm sure I should do fine. If not, then I welcome the challenge, as they have yet to be more than a passing concern for me.

And, no, I don't have Courage in my current game. I don't plan to get it, either. My mana nodes are going to be reserved for 1 enchantment and all Earth (I'm playing with the mine-resource popping this game - so far I have quite a few gems that more than make up for the lack of cottages).

2. How do you handle the popping up of barb cities on the map, especially in those open spaces, or near your borders?

In my current game, which still is only about 60% settled (I can't wait for Hyborem to show up, if he does at all), there have been a lot of barb cities, yes. The barbs have also been on a recent rampage, destroying a bunch of AI cities somehow (must be the lizardmen that are spawning now). My civ, the Khazad, haven't attacked a single city yet, and no barb cities have popped up near my borders. As such, I don't have a comparable problem to what you describe.

Anyway, again, having the 16 starting civs vs. the 10 I play with changes the dynamic a bit, but I am interested in hearing your opinion on the 2 items above. Thanks.

Yeah, in general I feel the extra civs reduce the effectiveness of barbarians. However, on full land maps, like Fantasy Realm or Highlands, there is still an awful lot of space. And it is normal for two to five civs to be knocked out in the first 150 turns, leaving big gaping holes between settled lands.

 

[CyberChrist]

You are aware, I assume, that they do automatically upgrade. It takes an average of roughly 33 turns while they are unwounded.

Ah thanks, I wasn't aware of this. I have never had that happen - all animals tend to go extinct fast in my games (never seen Grand Menagerie completed either).

However it seems to me that a better way to cause them to upgrade, would be to link the upgrade with xp they gained.

 

[Sarisin]

Just when you think there are too many animals and not enough barbs, you run into a game like the one I am playing now. Ethne the White, Huge Fantasy map, Epic, raging barbs/aggAI.

By turn 200 in this game, except for a few wandering jumbos, the animals have been wiped off the map. One reason I noted because it was happening next to my borders was that the Amurites were systematically killing off the animals and taking out the dens. Well, this sucked for 2 reasons:

1. By the time I got Animal Husbandry/Hunters, the animals were gone so I was unable to subdue ANY.

2. No animals = beaucoup barbs.

On #2, I counted 28 barbs (goblins, spearmen, and lizardmen) within my two cities' borders. It was a real raging barb game and then some.

The barbs came for a good 300 turns. It was pretty relentless, but not too difficult to handle because I lucked out and got Priesthood in a hurry and was able to build many Monk defenders.

The map is starting to fill now a bit, but one of my borders is wide open and I am seeing mini-stacks of barbs appear every few turns. Now axemen and worg riders have joined the mix.

So, if you feel there are too many animals, take out as many as you can, especially the dens, and hope the AI does too.

 

[Sarisin]

Sorry, yeah I forgot to mention game speed, for some reason. Yes, I play on marathon.


It's now turn 600-ish, and I recently got blighted. The Calabim (who are Ashen Veil) are getting their butts kicked by the Elohim (who are Octopus Overlord), so I'm not sure how much more AV will be manipulating the AC. The count still seems fine to me.


So far, I've never had any trouble with the Horsemen in my games. However, keep in mind that I've played very few Fire games. With my preferred speed being Marathon, and with a very busy schedule up until recently, I just haven't as much time for FfH.

My military is currently quite comfortable with it's iron-weaponed dwarven warriors (many of whom are high level thanks to the barbarians). By the time the horsemen appear, if ever, I'm sure I should do fine. If not, then I welcome the challenge, as they have yet to be more than a passing concern for me.

And, no, I don't have Courage in my current game. I don't plan to get it, either. My mana nodes are going to be reserved for 1 enchantment and all Earth (I'm playing with the mine-resource popping this game - so far I have quite a few gems that more than make up for the lack of cottages).



In my current game, which still is only about 60% settled (I can't wait for Hyborem to show up, if he does at all), there have been a lot of barb cities, yes. The barbs have also been on a recent rampage, destroying a bunch of AI cities somehow (must be the lizardmen that are spawning now). My civ, the Khazad, haven't attacked a single city yet, and no barb cities have popped up near my borders. As such, I don't have a comparable problem to what you describe.


Yeah, in general I feel the extra civs reduce the effectiveness of barbarians. However, on full land maps, like Fantasy Realm or Highlands, there is still an awful lot of space. And it is normal for two to five civs to be knocked out in the first 150 turns, leaving big gaping holes between settled lands.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Do you really think Dwarven Warriors will be able to defend against those powerful Horsemen like Buboes et al?

I remember my first game I had Axemen and thought I was in decent shape to defend. However, I had no Spirit Mana and, thus, no Courage for my troops. None of them would even attack the First Horsemen. He killed at will and I had nothing with enough Courage to counter the Fear he brought with him.

So, it is not just a matter of having strong troops. They need the Courage too or the battle will not be joined usually.

Yes, I guess all the games can be different, but I have noticed in every Marathon game I play that the counter moves too quickly IMO. I really think the culprit is the counter increasing whenever a barb city goes down. If it took, say, three barb cities razed to move the counter 1, it would be a lot better. Keep it at 1 per other cities, but either reduce the counter movement forward for razed barb cities, or slow down the rate at which they can pop up on the map.

I think this would make Marathon game more interesting and you could prepare better for a counter that moves too quickly now.