Anno Domini - a full mod from R8XFT

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Tenkamenin makeover

Not to be outdone, Tenkamenin of Ghana has also been updated. I've changed the backgrounds (the old ancient one had been "stolen" by Candace), given him a beard but no facepaints in the ancient age and changed the texture of the clothing in the latter ages to make it look more like rich fabric.

Is Tenkamenin good to go?

 

[Plotinus]

That is really splendid. I noticed on your website you had changed the Ghana leader to Tenkamenin, which I think is a good choice (he leads Ghana in my scenario too). Tenkamenin was a really nice king - he used to ride out throughout his kingdom and meet with ordinary people to see if they had any problems, rather like George III! And he would promise that they would not leave his audience without justice being done (a bit like Tony Blair on The Wright Stuff the other day. Kind of).

My only comment is that blue might be a more appropriate colour for his scarf and turban. Indigo was an important dye in the sub-Saharan world at this time and blue-dyed clothes indicated wealth and status, which is why the Tuareg still wear blue and white check today. However, I really like the look of it as it is, so I would say only change it if you want to and if it would look as good, because the purple does have a lovely texture. You've done a great job on that compared to how it was before.

Also, the old empire of Ghana was basically desert, so I'm not convinced by the ancient background, lovely though it is!

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Thanks for the feedback, Plotinus !

How's this?

By the way, nice to see that people are checking out the website .

 

[Plotinus]

I think that is fabulous! A very nice texture indeed. I say he's ready to rumble.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

I think that is fabulous! A very nice texture indeed.

Cheers! I take it he might find a place in the Desert and the Mountain as well? I think the ancient background is rather exotic...is that ok?

I say he's ready to rumble.

My next query is this: who else really should be in the Africa mix of six civs?
Ethiopia, Ghana, Nubia and Nok are definately in there. The only problem is finding rulers and civs that we know of in the time-frame. Part of the reason to extend the timespan to 1200AD (roughly) is so that more African (and at the time, Native American) tribes could be included.
I have, for now, included Mali - however, it does overlap with Ghana and Mansa Musa is 150 years too late for the mod if I'm being honest. Having said that, I think with the new era titles, the dates for inclusion in the mod are a little more "fuzzy."
I included Queen Aqaluga for Nubia because I really do want to use that leaderhead. However, I'd be more than happy to do Taharka instead if I can find somewhere else for the female leaderhead. I like it too much to take out of the mod altogether. Of course, if the timelines are blurred, and no-one's too fussed, she can revert back to being Queen Nzinga....that would bring Matamba into the mix as a "token" Congo culture. I feel that the original Nubian male head that I did would be good enough for Taharka.

That would therefore mean that the African mix could be:
Ethiopia (Candace)
Ghana (Tenkamenin)
Mali (Mansa Musa)
Matamba (Nzinga)
Nok (Obatala)
Nubia (Taharka)

If anyone has forgotten what these images might look like, here they are in the order listed above:

Please let me know what you think to this. I am taking on board a lot of the feedback and incorporating it into the mod.

 

[Plotinus]

Here are my thoughts, for what they're worth.

I agree that Mali is a little late for your dates, and I think that if you have Ghana you don't really need Mali, given the number of other civs that would like to be included.

By the same token, Matamba is definitely too late. I'd prefer not to have them in.

I'm not sure I can think of any other African civs that would be appropriate. But here's a cunning idea: why not have Saba in there? Saba was a great and advanced civilisation in modern-day Yemen between the tenth and sixth centuries BC. It was legendarily wealthy, and it was from here that the fabled Queen of Sheba travelled to visit King Solomon. Obviously Saba isn't African, although, culturally speaking, East Africa and the western/southern Arabian peninsula are historically very close. And you might be able to get away with using the Aqaluga LH for the Queen of Sheba if you wanted.

Personally I like the Aqaluga LH very much so I want to see her in there somewhere! I do think she's better than the Taharka LH, if it comes to choosing between them as Nubian LHs, although I *am* holding out for seeing a slightly darker-skinned version of him some time. Or maybe you could turn him into an Armenian...

As for me, yes, I covet a number of these... Obviously I'm using an alarming number of your LHs already for The Desert and The Mountain. Of the ones under proposal I would very much like Aqaluga (in her medieval outfit, I think), Tenkamenin (in his medieval look too), and Taharka (I already have him of course but it would be nice if he got a tan!). It's hard keeping track of who's who, they seem to swap outfits, names and hairstyles at such a rate... It's impressive how much you're refining everything all the time. It keeps getting better and better, both graphically and in concept.

 

[Mr. Orange]

Hey guy's who nows a good Vanilla Mod

 

[Asclepius]

I have to say this really does look like a great concept and it will be good to see all of your work together in one mod. I agree that dropping the American civs is probably a good move, if you are sticking to the "find the new world" victory concept, then they are a little redundant.

Something I would like to see are unbalanced Civs. What I mean by this is that each Civ would have an era specific advantage which may (or may not) correspond with its Golden Age. Something more like a UU on steroids, a unit with a significant advantage over other units from the same era. Some Civs may have a very early advantage (like Ethiopia) and others might have to wait until the last era (like the Saxons). Just something different to break the standard progression and to show that some cultures had inherent advantages at certain stages in their development.

Just a thought I had had before, it seems to work better with your time frame though.

 

[Plotinus]

By the way, you said you're having difficulty thinking of seafaring civs. Why not make Ethiopia seafaring? At its height, Axum's fleet was the biggest in the entire world, and it ranged from Zanzibar to India. This would also allow you to cut down the number of African civs with the agricultural trait, which at the moment seems slightly excessive.

 

[davbenbak]

I noticed in your tech tree that Horseback riding comes before Chariotry. Something you might want to concider is that the reason the chariot was developed as a weapon of war was because at the time horses were too small to ride effectively in battle. The steppe peoples were the first to breed horses large enough to carry an armed warrior for great distances and they reigned terror down upon the peoples of Mesopatamia. I would also urge you to not require horses as a resource for chariots for that reason and to have them preceed mounted warriors

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

@Asclepius : I like the idea of unbalanced Civs, but I'm not sure I want to do that in this mod. We'll see - whether it goes in or not, it's a good idea.

@Plotinus : ok - sounds good. I wasn't aware of that and you're right about the Agricultural bias of Africa. I had worked out all the traits, but am willing to change some. The main thing I definately am doing is having all 28 combinations of 2 traits that you can have - leaving three others to double-up - but then ensuring that each trait isn't doubled up more than once if you see what I mean. Just in case you didn't understand that, I mean that if I double-up on the Militaristic and Religious combination, then the other double-ups will contain neither of these traits.
Furthermore, each civ has a primary and secondary trait, the difference being that the primary trait also leads to advances on the tech tree. I've ensured that each trait is the primary trait to a maximum of four civs for balance.

@Cybie - get conquests, mate - you won't regret it!! If you need a Vanilla mod, then Double your pleasure's a good 'un. It is available in all three formats.

Incidently, I've just pre-ordered the Poser 6 upgrade! Apparently shadows are much better and it's easier to work with....hmmm...we'll see. It's supposed to be available "in Spring 2005" - but today is the last day you can pre-order, so I hope it's soon. I'll hang on with the final render of the leaderheads just in case I can improve them further with Poser 6. That is, unless there's an incredible delay....

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

I noticed in your tech tree that Horseback riding comes before Chariotry. Something you might want to concider is that the reason the chariot was developed as a weapon of war was because at the time horses were too small to ride effectively in battle. The steppe peoples were the first to breed horses large enough to carry an armed warrior for great distances and they reigned terror down upon the peoples of Mesopatamia. I would also urge you to not require horses as a resource for chariots for that reason and to have them preceed mounted warriors

Good plan. I now have chariots available to some civilizations in the first era without the need for horses as a resource. Horseback riding will become available in era two.

 

[pinktilapia]

Great website R8XFT, much much better than I could ever do
Although I have no time to help much, or even follow the thread closely, have you already decided how the Roman Civ will be represented? Will it be overpowered to allow it to dominate the map in the 3rd era and then underpowered to fall in the 4th (at least in most games)?

 

[Olaf_The_Great]

uhh just so you know Trajan wasnt a emporer he was a centurion/General

 

[Antiochus VII]

The same Trajan, emperor A.D 98-117?

By the way, the new Tenkamenin is INCREDIBLE!

Just a thought as well: it wouldn't be absolutely necessary to restrict your choices to those peoples with a period of greatness during this period, especially if they were close such as Mali. Even if they didn't get much press as nations the peoples themselves were around, especially during the end period of your mod. Changing history is much of the fun of modding, so if they do a little better than they did historically by being included, so much the better!

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Thanks for the feedback!
Trajan was Roman Emperor AD98-AD117 and was the first non-Italian to be Emperor of Rome.

 

[Xyth]

If you do go for Saba then your Zenobia LH would be perfect for an Arabian queen. And the Ghanan LH looks stunning now! The fabric texture has added so much depth and realism.

Also the LH who at one time used to be Kashta (hard to keep up with the changes!), I think he would make an awesome Indian or even Harrapan leader. Maybe switch Aqaluga to a Nubian queen?

BTW, Cybie can't get Conquests - it and PTW never came out for the Mac.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Great website R8XFT, much much better than I could ever do
Although I have no time to help much, or even follow the thread closely, have you already decided how the Roman Civ will be represented? Will it be overpowered to allow it to dominate the map in the 3rd era and then underpowered to fall in the 4th (at least in most games)?

I wasn't planning to go for historic realism in terms of who is the most powerful and when for the mod. What I'm aiming for is a reproduction of the "epic" game, but based pre-1200AD with flavour units and technologies.

@Xyth - thanks for the feedback. Despite wanting 6 civs in each culture group for balance, it's not worth forcing a sixth civ in there at the expense of one that might be wanted elsewhere. I hadn't thought of the Harrapans and that's good feedback about the Kashta leaderhead. Equally good idea about Zenobia being a leader for the Saba. I'll have a think.

Anyone notice any civs that are currently on the website that maybe could be dispensed with in favour of another civ, or are you all happy with the list there?

 

[billesarius]

The more I read, the more I realize that you are making my mod and that if I just delay long enough you will save me quite a bit of effort .
The web site is very nicely done. Where do you find the time for all this?
Couple of small suggestions/observations:
If you do put in Sheba/Saba ( and I am, so it must be your destiny! ) then I agree with Xyth that Zenobia would do nicely. Her name, in different traditions, was Bilqis (from Koran I think) or Makeda. Cartimandua would also make a nice Q/Sheba with different backgrounds.
For civs, I'm not sold on Huns or Trojans. On the plus side they do capture the imagination more than some civs and they are not bad selections but....
Someone is certainly needed in the steppes/central asia area but for my money the Turks, Scythians, Khazars and Mongols all were more important and for a for a longer period as well.
With the Trojans the problem is twofold. One, that they were never a major civilization. At best they were a significant kingdom in only one of your epochs. Second is a problem of scale. Do you really have room for Greeks, Minoans, Trojans. Hittites and Illyrians? I don't know what map you are using so you may but I am using a large (292x200) map of limited scope (W Asia, Europe, N Africa) and it seems a bit cramped to me having all those civs in a limited area.
Wonderful work you are doing. Following with much interest.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

Thanks billesarius!
First of all, in terms of the civs fitting into a specific area on the map - don't worry, it's a random map game.

I had thought about the Mongols being in the mod instead of the Huns - what do you think folks? Don't worry - I would do a new Ghengis Khan, so we would not be relying on the Fireaxis version.

With respect to Troy being in the game - well, I'm 50/50. I like having them in the game, but don't have to put them in if there's deemed to be a more "deserving" or "needed" civilization that could take their place.

I would like to be in a position where we are 100% certain of who is in the mod by Sunday (when I'm next going to have chance to do some major work on the mod). I actually had a list of 31 civilizations that I was happy with and had the traits all sorted out, with what I felt was a good overall blend and mixture between the different culture groups. However, in a response to feedback, I'm going to open this up for debate. First of all, there are 19 civilizations that I've decided will definately go in there:

Arabs, Carthage, Egypt, Ethiopia, Franks, Ghana, Greece, Iceni, Illyria, India, Israel, Khmer, Nok, Nubia, Persia, Qin, Rome, Saxons, Vikings

Some of these are there because they really ought to be - such as the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans; some are there because I want them to be, such as the Iceni, Illyrians and the Nok.

Next, there are some civs where there should be one or the other:
Assyrians or Babylonians?
Berbers or Moroccans?
Huns or Mongols?
Palmyra or Saba?
Scots or Picts?

Please choose one or the other.

That makes 24 - leaving us with 7 places to fill. Please express your choices from the following:
Brigantia, Etrusca, Gauls, Harrapa, Hittites, Khazar, Kievan Rus, Mali, Minoa, Numidia, Scythia, Siam, Troy, Yamato

I could choose for myself, and would probably end up with the list I have on my desk at home - but seeing as I want people to enjoy playing the mod, I thought I'd open this invitation for you to help decide. Then at last I can concentrate on the finer detail of the mod itself!!

Incidently, if people would like to suggest UUs for the various civs, that would be great too .