Another Civ

[Soundwαvє ▼]

yeah I was wrong, I don't consider Cartage as Africa at all... mostly because their culture was influenced by european nations and they are a colony, maybe I'm wrong because is the same I say that USA isn't an American nation because it has influence of England and was a colony...

About the time on civ... I know that now we have much more advance and by changing how time works we can show it on a game... but the events on civ lasts too longer when you do it in past times... some examples: Rome in less than 800 years dominate all europe (I mean since the begin (when rome was founded) until they start producing praetorians and then dominating, but that's impossible because you would take 800 years to do 1 praetorian (because you started with workers to improve resources, etc... Another exemple is the conquest of New World, first that boats takes more than 10 years to cross the ocean and then to domain all barbarians cities you take more 100 years (you need to walk between jungles and at 1500 or 1600 barbarians have pretty good defenses.

So the point is, we should make turns slower sometimes (maybe when you are at war) I mean, put a slider that you can put it on Marathon whenever you want and then pull it again on normal...

 

[awesome]

starting out as a colony doesn't change what continent you're on.

 

[Malkaviel]

Arguing Carthage was an African civ would be like an argument Lincoln, Washington and Roosevelt should have dog soldiers and totem poles.

After "Phoenecia" fell (in parenthesis because the inhabitants didn't call themselves Phoenecians), save a couple hold outs like Tyre, which was basically in a losing struggle of capitulation for a couple hundred years, Carthage was the nerve center for a seperate embodiment which spanned much of the western mediterranean and Iberia (modern day Spain) and competed fiercely with Rome. It did indeed have its own culture, national identity and sovereignty by the time of the Punic wars.

On the matter of Brazil, little is credited as their culture's contributions to world history, save Christo Redentor, a particularly high crime rate and sex tourism. In game terms I'd say it's more akin to an expansive Portugese territory which succumbed to America's cultural influence radius, as have a number of countries in central and south america.

I know Brazilians won't like that answer, but ask yourself some honest questions. Will Brazil ever be a particular threat to western hegemony? No. Does Brazil ever make huge leap tech advances or "new" cultural ingenuities outside of that western hegemony? Not really, no.

Again, in "game terms", when there are only 5 to 18 civs on a globe map, instead of a modern recognized 195 sovereignties, I genuinely don't feel Brazil is "in the running".

 

[awesome]

Arguing Carthage was an African civ would be like an argument Lincoln, Washington and Roosevelt should have dog soldiers and totem poles.

After "Phoenecia" fell (in parenthesis because the inhabitants didn't call themselves Phoenecians), save a couple hold outs like Tyre, which was basically in a losing struggle of capitulation for a couple hundred years, Carthage was the nerve center for a seperate embodiment which spanned much of the western mediterranean and Iberia (modern day Spain) and competed fiercely with Rome. It did indeed have its own culture, national identity and sovereignty by the time of the Punic wars.

On the matter of Brazil, little is credited as their culture's contributions to world history, save Christo Redentor, a particularly high crime rate and sex tourism. In game terms I'd say it's more akin to an expansive Portugese territory which succumbed to America's cultural influence radius, as have a number of countries in central and south america.

I know Brazilians won't like that answer, but ask yourself some honest questions. Will Brazil ever be a particular threat to western hegemony? No. Does Brazil ever make huge leap tech advances or "new" cultural ingenuities outside of that western hegemony? Not really, no.

Again, in "game terms", when there are only 5 to 18 civs on a globe map, instead of a modern recognized 195 sovereignties, I genuinely don't feel Brazil is "in the running".

i'm sorry, but did you actually read anything that you just typed? carthage is on the continent of africa, whether the carthaginians considered themselves african or not. just like egypt, for example, doesn't consider itself african, either.
i can honestly say that i don't know too much about brazil myself, aside from some random googling, but why exactly would they want to threaten western hegemony when they are themselves a western society? plus, there are already a few civs that haven't really contributed much to world culture, at least not much more than brazil (zulu and korea, i'm looking at you). a brazilian also developed the first practical dirigible.
finally, brazil gave us brazilian steak sauce and i'm pretty sure it's illegal to be an ugly woman there. what other reason do you need?

 

[Malkaviel]

i'm sorry, but did you actually read anything that you just typed? carthage is on the continent of africa, whether the carthaginians considered themselves african or not. just like egypt, for example, doesn't consider itself african, either.
i can honestly say that i don't know too much about brazil myself, aside from some random googling, but why exactly would they want to threaten western hegemony when they are themselves a western society? plus, there are already a few civs that haven't really contributed much to world culture, at least not much more than brazil (zulu and korea, i'm looking at you). a brazilian also developed the first practical dirigible.
finally, brazil gave us brazilian steak sauce and i'm pretty sure it's illegal to be an ugly woman there. what other reason do you need?

Your argument is because a capital is in a geographic location, the culture should be lump-sum identified as quantifiably continental. Further, you're looking to modern identifiable labels and debating "this is thus".

I also stated clearly Carthage posessed territory in Europe but I don't make the argument they were European. There is another option. They were mediterranean.

Today, we don't really see that option as particularly identifiable because our method of comparison is a modern over-view of seven continents, but the mediterranean was everything to these people. Cultures like the Carthaginians' weren't specifically from Africa, or Europe, or the middle east, but a blending of "all of the above".

I could formatively present the debate aboriginal Cathaginians were semitic, because by our modern standards they spoke and wrote a derivative phoenecian dialect, which was certainly a product of arabian origin, and because their pottery, construction, war tech, customs, trade procedures, et al, were of similar origin, but I don't. By and large, no less through and through, identifiably, cultures of these conglomerate standards, were mediterranean.

 

[awesome]

you're basically talking yourself in circles and doing a bad job of it. acting like a pseudo-intellectual doesn't change that, either.

 

[Malkaviel]

Lol you're basically wrong, and arguing against my education and articulation doesn't change that.

 

[awesome]

no, i'm definitely right. obviously people thought of themselves as wherever they lived throughout history, but what else are continents, other than really big pieces of land where lots of different groups live? i mean, russia is considered european, even though they have like half of asia.

 

[Soundwαvє ▼]

Guys let's stop with this... some more coins to Brazil: The modern voting machine (electronic), the poultry (dance/fight and is culture), that little thing that know who is calling (yes, a brazilian...), a lot of advances at green techs, and some at medicine (did you know that brazilians created a method to know if you are with swine flu in just 5 minutes instead days or weeks?), agricultural techniques, serum anti-venum (less problems with snakes, thanks to Brazil...), polemic discovers is the planes (Santos Dumont X Wright Brothers... winners write the history, right?) and the pulse clock (I need to search more but I'm almost sure).

So Tech and Culture is not a problem... We are in trouble but how Zulus goes now?
We are similar to portugueses? NO WAY, even the language being the same has differences! O>O
We have a lot of resources even that Europeans stolen most but there still a lot, and just now we discovered a colossal oil resource in the coast (in Civ would look like 2 or more oil resources).

Our diplomatic relations (as I said before) is just really good and we look for pacifism and try to help when we can.

I really don't know, you guys say we are just another colony but our culture is more than unique... mostly because is a mix of every culture there with a bit of our own.

 

[awesome]

neither of us is really mad (at least i'm not)

 

[Malkaviel]

no, i'm definitely right. obviously people thought of themselves as wherever they lived throughout history, but what else are continents, other than really big pieces of land where lots of different groups live? i mean, russia is considered european, even though they have like half of asia.

Moscow is about as far east as one can go and still be in what is geopolitically considered Europe (pretty much anything west of the Ural mts.). Further, those white faces you see smiling from the Kremlin are descendants of scandinavian people (vikings).

While your illustrated comparison is relevant because Russia controls vast swaths of land between 2 continents, it simply isn't the entire story. You act like I'm taking something from you because of your understood parameter distinguishing a "European" culture and an "African" one.

In simplest terms, at one time, the Mediterranean Sea was, to a sizeable percentage of the world's population, the entire world. No land on earth had a higher real estate value than that bordering this sea. It was a nexus of world religion, communication, technology and power. Moreover, cultures which were distinctly european or african were often destroyed and/or enslaved by the super-powers there.

I suppose it's because there's no committee proclaiming from Sicily or Corsica "heritage rights", or maybe because history is so often written by the successors that mediterranean culture somehow, at some point lost it's identity. But I assure you not one of the 3 continents bordering the sea can lay any particular claim to the civilizations that founded and grew on those shores.

Rome wasn't what it was because its capital was in Europe. Carthage wasn't what it was because its capital was in Africa. Similarly, include Greeks, Egyptians, Phoenecians and the score of lesser known cultures. They were mediterranean.

 

[awesome]

we're not exactly arguing the same point anymore.

 

[Takhisis]

What I can notice is that Soundwαvє ▼ will pull any argument to try to back this proposal of having Brazil as a civilisation and that Malkaviel will do the same to try to demolish the proposal.

 

[Soundwαvє ▼]

I'll do that until I get a Never (Defy Resolution)...

I just think that things isn't clear yet... and the conversation was turning to a off topic subject.

 

[Takhisis]

Alright then,

Spoiler my answer is... :

NEVER!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

 

[Silurian]

If other civs are added to the Game then Brazil would be a good one as South America is not well represented.

Carthage was a Mediterranean sea power that originated in Lebanon Palestine area. The capital was in modern day Tunisia but the majority of their lands were on Mediterranean islands and latter Spain. They are not an African civ.

 

[Soundwαvє ▼]

I think there is no more reason to discuss anything here, let's wait for the Firaxis decision on the next game...

 

[Camikaze]

Arguing Carthage was an African civ would be like an argument Lincoln, Washington and Roosevelt should have dog soldiers and totem poles.

My sole criteria for an African civ is being on the continent of Africa. Carthage was.

If other civs are added to the Game then Brazil would be a good one as South America is not well represented.

Yeah, I have no problem with this. Assuming a dramatic expansion in the overall number of civs in the game, Brazil should be in it too. But if there isn't going to be too many more civs, then Brazil is a bit of a hard ask.

The capital was in modern day Tunisia but the majority of their lands were on Mediterranean islands and latter Spain. They are not an African civ.

They were in Africa. Whether their culture was African or not, saying that they are not African because most of their land was not in Africa and they originated from elsewhere is like saying that the English Empire was not British because they originated from elsewhere (Normandy, France, Germany, depending on dynasty), and most of their territory was not in Britain. I'm not trying to pull some sort of quasi-revisionist trickery here. Being in Africa seems like a fair enough qualifier for an African civ.

 

[awesome]

especially since saying "african culture" is pretty much an ambiguous statement. egypt isn't culturally identical even to libya, which is right next door, never mind something like south africa, all the way on the other side of the continent.

 

[Arakhor]

Egypt is Middle Eastern by culture and Carthage, by virtue of being a Classical civilisation, is Mediteranean. Babylon, Sumeria, Persia and the Ottomans all fall into the category of not being European, African or Asian.

And at the risk of sounding "anti-American", the only reason you call the American War of Independence "The Revolutionary War" is because it's a big deal to you. I'd imagine that a country that isn't the USA or the UK would call it "the American Revolutionary War". Patriotism has zero place in world history.