Another emperor shadow game thread

noontide

Warlord
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
267
Ok, I rolled a relatively poor start which might help me learn. I guess my first question is city placement. I'm thinking settling two cities, one left to the silk to grab the fish, another south to the ivy to grab the crab. The rice is covered in jungle. I have French and Mali close to me and am in the danger of being fenced in.

In terms of game plan though, should I run GP farm seeing that I have Germany?

[Update]
Research BW no copper around, seeing that there is not many starter resource around and I'm tugged away at the corner, I decided to shoot for Ironwork and hope to rush one of the neighbor.
 

Attachments

  • 20181106113433_1.jpg
    20181106113433_1.jpg
    293.5 KB · Views: 155
  • AutoSave_Initial_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave
    AutoSave_Initial_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave
    29.1 KB · Views: 124
Last edited:
Ok, I rolled a relatively poor start which might help me learn. I guess my first question is city placement. I'm thinking settling two cities, one left to the silk to grab the fish, another south to the ivy to grab the crab. The rice is covered in jungle. I have French and Mali close to me and am in the danger of being fenced in.

In terms of game plan though, should I run GP farm seeing that I have Germany?

[Update]
Research BW no copper around, seeing that there is not many starter resource around and I'm tugged away at the corner, I decided to shoot for Ironwork and hope to rush one of the neighbor.

No no no no no....never self-tech IW on emperor unless you're playing as Rome, or are iso. And you seem to have about at least 4 good city spots, which is plenty for a construction rush. Which is what you want to do, IMO. Because 8-strength phants and collateral cats completely demolish anything pre-medieval.

Also...t33 and you haven't started on settler??? What have you been building?
 
No no no no no....never self-tech IW on emperor unless you're playing as Rome, or are iso. And you seem to have about at least 4 good city spots, which is plenty for a construction rush. Which is what you want to do, IMO. Because 8-strength phants and collateral cats completely demolish anything pre-medieval.

Also...t33 and you haven't started on settler??? What have you been building?
Why is bad to tech Ironwork? What are phants? Elephants?
 
It's bad to tech iron working because 1. swords are weak and get chewed up by axes/archers alone, 2. the AI gets it early and you can just trade for it as soon as anyone has alphabet, and 3. the opportunity cost is too high - to swordrush, you need to skip essentials like pottery or writing before the AI gets too much of a force.

Yes, elephants. They come at construction + horseback riding, are 8 strength, and can fight at parity with their supposed counter, spears. Construction also unlocks catapults.
 
OK, some basic things on how to play the first 50 turns
  • worker first (I imagine that is what you did, but no idea how you are so much behind T33)
  • improve food first
  • start a settler @size3 usually
  • settle so that food on the 1st ring! Otherwise you are just stuck working weak tiles waiting forever for a border pop
  • chop!
  • usually you should have at least 3 cities and 2-3 workers T50
Here I think the choices for next cities should be clam (1st ring food!) and 1NE of northern fish (1st ring food!). This leaves room to grab middle fish later, because that city needs a border pop.

Basic tech path should be something like get BW, get pottery-AH-writing and from then on it varies a lot. Like Undefeatable noted, IW should close to never be self teched, as it's not a strong tech and can be gained via trade easily.

I have twice suggested you to watch Lain's videos, as then all this would become much more clear for you. :)
 
Just a quick glance here:
- Did you go Worker first? you're late on improvements and the city should be size 3 already at T25, where you can start a settler. Improve the Corn, grow on a FP at size 2. Farm a FP then camp the Ivory, it's essentially a Grassland Hill when improved.. Work the Ivory at 3 when building a settler. Grow there first.

-Why have you not farmed one of the FP yet?

Germany starts with Mining and you teched Agri for the corn; assuming worker first you have 18 worker turns to use by T33; farming the corn then camp in that order is 10 worker turns done by T24. You have enough to still move to and Farm a FP before this turn. It appears you either Farmed the corn second or have just moved back to farm that grassland from the Ivory, but you should be doing the FP if you want a farm -- they not only give more food, but being riverside, an extra commerce too. They are actually 5 yield tiles. All those riverside grass hills are nice to for slow building if mined.

Cottaging is important but try to think food or at least Settler/Worker output first, at least for the first turns with the capitol. So in a situation like this where it's between save the FPs for cottages by farming weaker tiles, or or farm the FPs, I'd farm at least one first then replace later. The grass river hills can be okay too but generally FOOD is best, especially when you don't have multiple resource starts.


Actually looking at the overview, I would have settled ON the Ivory. No need to improve it, extra hammer, you can still grab the fish and crab spots, you could then settle a city on one of the Plains Hills and share the corn + some cottages. The middle fish is a trap; you're not gonna get it without a border pop and it can be reached from that western island/landmass anyway.


In terms of game plan though, should I run GP farm seeing that I have Germany?
Just because you are PHI doesn't mean you have to go right out for a singular GP farm. It will speed natural generation from Libraries in many cities as well, so any potential spot with at least a +4 food tile can farm scientists for you. Just try to get the libraries and run the scientists near around the same time, and they'll come roughly 9 turns apart in the different cities. Alternatively, you can just grow as large as possible, wait for a golden age + pacifism + caste, and run as many as possible (starving the cities) to get them out all at once.

For a GP farm you'll want a spot with preferably a lot of food surplus in as few tiles as possible; a better spot for that just in this glance is the spot that can grab BOTH fish and run a lighthouse for 2 +6 food tiles. National Epic is also really nice for that type of city but is a pain without Marble. it's hard to make the evaluation so early when there's more of the map to find out. And since that would require border pops for decent food, it's not a good early city either.

The point is, that's getting ahead of things. You'll probably want to see how the religion plays out and whether you can get marble or not before deciding on running one large GP farm. You've got good cottage potential with a river capital, there's no reason to ignore that.
 
Played quickly to T50
Spoiler :


Civ4ScreenShot0025.JPG


Agri-BW-fish-wheel-pot-(writ). 2nd city T36 takes double seafood, immediately chop boat and whip another for 3rd city immediately. 3rd city T47. Despite heavy chopping, it's a slow start because you need to sink :hammers: into boats. Granary will be completed in capital with that chop, nicely at roughly half food bar. Then grow to six, probably whip a settler. "Army" consists of a fortified scout in the north and one warrior. A bit thin, but plenty of AI scouts roaming around so haven't seen a single barb unit (only animals).

You definitely don't need to be afraid of getting boxed in when you have ivory. 3-4 cities is good for an elephant war.
 
Attack T88

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0026.JPG


Elephants in 3 turns, but I saw how lightly defended Napoleon is (1*archer, 1*galley in Orleans) so started the war with archerpult. Check save for details. Land is very good btw, all cities have a decent :food:-resource and plenty of river tiles.

 

Attachments

Now, really you should just go through the your previous two threads and just reread.
You have already gotten all possible advices multiple times! :D
 
Now, really you should just go through the your previous two threads and just reread.
You have already gotten all possible advices multiple times! :D

Yeah, I understand the gist of it, trying to incorporate into my play now. Thanks.
 
Played quickly to T50
Spoiler :


View attachment 507722

Agri-BW-fish-wheel-pot-(writ). 2nd city T36 takes double seafood, immediately chop boat and whip another for 3rd city immediately. 3rd city T47. Despite heavy chopping, it's a slow start because you need to sink :hammers: into boats. Granary will be completed in capital with that chop, nicely at roughly half food bar. Then grow to six, probably whip a settler. "Army" consists of a fortified scout in the north and one warrior. A bit thin, but plenty of AI scouts roaming around so haven't seen a single barb unit (only animals).

You definitely don't need to be afraid of getting boxed in when you have ivory. 3-4 cities is good for an elephant war.

Thanks guys. Please see the latest screenshots.

Turn 0-32: I played from turn 0 a few times, turn 32 is really the fastest I can get out a settler. This is how I did: build a worker on turn 0 while research BW. I thought about go with Agriculture for the corn, but then I want to chop asap. I worked the ivory once the worker was out while waiting for BW to finish. Then I chopped two forests while waiting for Agriculture to finish. Anything not optimized so far? Thanks.

Turn 32-62: built another settler and tried to grab the corn and marble up there. What next, shoot for construction rush? Do I bother to go for Oracle since I have marble?
 

Attachments

  • 20181107093124_1.jpg
    20181107093124_1.jpg
    365.8 KB · Views: 141
  • 20181107095523_1.jpg
    20181107095523_1.jpg
    276.8 KB · Views: 107
Last edited:
First of all, let me say that you've improved tremendously. Still, playing the early game optimally or even close to it is much harder than most players understand.

What could be done better?
  • you should go agri first. There aren't many exceptions to "food first"
  • due to this, you got 1T faster settler than I did, but your capital is size1, while mine was size3. This leads to slower 3rd city for you and it snowballs from there
  • you chose to settle weaker 2nd city first. The fish+clam is stronger because it has an extra food resource (and fish is 5:food:, clam is 4:food:) and because fish+clam is settled on a plains hill, giving an extra:hammers:per turn, nothing to sneeze at in early game
  • you improved clam first in the northern city, when improving fish would just give you an extra :food:
T62 comparison
Spoiler :


Me:

Civ4ScreenShot0027.JPG


You:

20181107095523_1.jpg



Analysis:

  • both have 3 workers
  • you have already founded 4th city, good, my 4th is founded next turn
  • however, your cities are smaller, and assumedly have no granaries (I have one in every city, which means they are ready to grow rapidly, then whip)
  • you have chosen to build roads, but building cottages first is better. Connecting southern city to your empire gives +1:commerce: while working a cottage does the same, but the latter improves after 10 turns. TBH since your capital isn't growing, cottages would be a bit moot there
  • due to mentioned details and them starting to snowball, you are only halfway to writing while I'm halfway to maths, that's like 300:science: difference
  • you really should always have slider either at 0% or at 100%


Where to go from your position? I chose to not settle that northern corn+marble -city because I didn't see it useful for construction-strategy. The middle-west filler on the other hand borrow fish from northern city to grow and work good river tiles (cottages, mines when close to :)-cap). I don't think you should gamble on Oracle at this stage. Maybe marble is useful if you take aesthetics-route. Of course, still not late to just go for construction attack, emperor is still a forgiving level.
 
Yes, alot better as sampsa says, thank you for your persistance noontide!
As pointed out, you should have gone with agriculture first. (In other openings, that might be AH, fishing or even hunting, depending on what food resource you have available in the capital.)
The reason for this is because after you have built your first worker, the capitals primary need is to grow. Both to work more tiles, but also to build up population for whipping potential.
If you don't have any cities that have food available, and can't grow, the utility of BW is lowered.
 
First of all, let me say that you've improved tremendously. Still, playing the early game optimally or even close to it is much harder than most players understand.

What could be done better?
  • you should go agri first. There aren't many exceptions to "food first"
  • due to this, you got 1T faster settler than I did, but your capital is size1, while mine was size3. This leads to slower 3rd city for you and it snowballs from there
  • you chose to settle weaker 2nd city first. The fish+clam is stronger because it has an extra food resource (and fish is 5:food:, clam is 4:food:) and because fish+clam is settled on a plains hill, giving an extra:hammers:per turn, nothing to sneeze at in early game
  • you improved clam first in the northern city, when improving fish would just give you an extra :food:
T62 comparison
Spoiler :


Me:

View attachment 507794

You:

View attachment 507795


Analysis:

  • both have 3 workers
  • you have already founded 4th city, good, my 4th is founded next turn
  • however, your cities are smaller, and assumedly have no granaries (I have one in every city, which means they are ready to grow rapidly, then whip)
  • you have chosen to build roads, but building cottages first is better. Connecting southern city to your empire gives +1:commerce: while working a cottage does the same, but the latter improves after 10 turns. TBH since your capital isn't growing, cottages would be a bit moot there
  • due to mentioned details and them starting to snowball, you are only halfway to writing while I'm halfway to maths, that's like 300:science: difference
  • you really should always have slider either at 0% or at 100%



Where to go from your position? I chose to not settle that northern corn+marble -city because I didn't see it useful for construction-strategy. The middle-west filler on the other hand borrow fish from northern city to grow and work good river tiles (cottages, mines when close to :)-cap). I don't think you should gamble on Oracle at this stage. Maybe marble is useful if you take aesthetics-route. Of course, still not late to just go for construction attack, emperor is still a forgiving level.

Wow... super helpful, and thanks for taking time for the detailed analyses. I see what you were saying about snowballing effect! A couple of questions:

1. Should I bother with Oracle? I like the tech boost, and usually go for Code of Law which usually gives Confucianism. Is it a situational thing or just plainly not worth it?
2. When a tech is 2 turns from being finished, i always adjust the slider to make sure there is no overflow. I don't quite remember where did I pick up the habit, maybe from a post many years ago. Is that legit at all?
 
1. Try to not build oracle (or any other wonder for that matter) for the next 10 games. I think that will help you learn alot, and after that you will be in a much better position to make sound judgements about when and where to pursue certain wonders.
2. Sounds like a fairly reasonable aproach. I do that myself alot of the time. If you are just steamrolling through myst->med->priesthood->CoL or something like that, where you know your tech plan and have enough cash to pursue multiple techs consecutively you should not do that however. Just let the overflow roll into the next tech.

If you are teching math and then need to save up cash and plan abit for the next tech-push, it's better to finish with just enough beakers and get no overflow.
 
Resource: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/beaker-overflow.624745/
Quote:
"In short
  • It is not possible to "game" the beaker overflow, so it doesn't matter if you complete a tech with huge overflow or no overflow.
  • As a rule of thumb, it is often better to complete a tech with no overflow, as it allows you to build up your treasury until your tech rate increases (completion of science buildings, civics switches)."
 
Wow... super helpful, and thanks for taking time for the detailed analyses. I see what you were saying about snowballing effect! A couple of questions:

1. Should I bother with Oracle? I like the tech boost, and usually go for Code of Law which usually gives Confucianism. Is it a situational thing or just plainly not worth it?
2. When a tech is 2 turns from being finished, i always adjust the slider to make sure there is no overflow. I don't quite remember where did I pick up the habit, maybe from a post many years ago. Is that legit at all?
1. Well... Oracle might be good on emperor, but it gets harder to use it efficiently on immortal and I'd very rarely go Oracle on deity. The reason is quite simple, it hurts to no get it after you've made a play for it, mainly due to tech path. You definitely don't NEED to build any wonders to beat immortal 100% of the time. If you watch Lain, he rarely builds wonders on deity and has lost what 2 games of over 30 he has posted.
Resource: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/beaker-overflow.624745/
Quote:
"In short
  • It is not possible to "game" the beaker overflow, so it doesn't matter if you complete a tech with huge overflow or no overflow.
  • As a rule of thumb, it is often better to complete a tech with no overflow, as it allows you to build up your treasury until your tech rate increases (completion of science buildings, civics switches)."
2. Since it is not possible to game beaker overflow, the normal commendation applies - go 0/100, as then you don't lose beakers due to rounding. I try often to complete writing with minimal overflow though because of the second point in the quoted part, (I'll often be @0% slider until a library is built).
 
Back
Top Bottom