Any news on the possibility of DLL being released?

[c4c6]

I'm not denying that someone will try it, nor am I arguing that it's impossible. But it's a lot harder than "I will learn C++ to make it."

Of course it is not an easy task for beginners. But it was done for civ4 & civ5. Who would argue that it's impossible for civ6? Why only expect someone will try? Why should we have no success in improving civ6 AI??

 

[Kwami]

I think we can all agree that it would be best if the .dll's were released. Then we can have hope for an amazing modder project to fix any number of things and make the game better for the community, even if the majority of users do not even know it exists.

I can recall in Civ4 that Firaxis asked to use some of the best mods from here and incorporated them into the expansion packs. Do not see why that is not a great example for them?

They've already used some of the Civ VI mods, too. The two more noticeable are the map tacks and the diplomacy ribbons. This far into the game, though, I doubt that they'd be taking any mods that come from DLL modifications.

 

[leif erikson]

They've already used some of the Civ VI mods, too. The two more noticeable are the map tacks and the diplomacy ribbons. This far into the game, though, I doubt that they'd be taking any mods that come from DLL modifications.

Probably not, but the point I am trying to make is that an active modder community is a benefit for them. Sid mentions the importance in his recent book, so why not give them the tools they need to most effectively create mods?

 

[pokiehl]

Probably not, but the point I am trying to make is that an active modder community is a benefit for them. Sid mentions the importance in his recent book, so why not give them the tools they need to most effectively mod?

I of course agree that having the dll is better than not having it, but my guess is that the reluctance stems from business reasons that we aren’t privy to or cognizant of. 2k is quite the conservative publisher, and this industry as well as Civilization itself is quite different than it was when Civ 4 came out.

don’t forget that even for the Civ 4 dll, the devs had to push hard to be allowed to release it.

Some people seem to think it’s because the devs “would look bad” after seeing what the community did with the dll, but that’s a rather silly interpretation.

 

[Zegangani]

What do you think "making the AI better" entails? You seem to treat it like a simple on/off switch, or some basic things that can be done after doing a C++ tutorial...

Ever seen Units just wondering around without a logical reason (Civilians who often neglect working tiles, Mili Units standing in a City if the neighboring city is being attacked, people have even seen GP who left their Civ (Darvin?)...)? or the bad AI choices concerning their infrastructure? (Do we even know how the AI is using Policies (randomly chosen?)?) So, by making AI better I mean, effective Units management (in Combat, upkeep and movement), profitable infrastructure based on adjacencies and taking in account all appropriate modifiers from Policies, CSs, Projects...etc, reasonable diplomatic decisions (Deals, relationships...), AI focusing on winning a victory based on its strengths and weaknesses (weak in Culture? why bother?! better in Science? it shall be a Science Victory?) . Well,... we all start at 0 when we want to learn something new. And who said it's going to be an easy task? I'm simply eager to improve the Game I love (despite the downsides like bugs and stuff), and nothing that is demanding gonna stop me from that (If it wasn't the Game, I would still don't know what to start with lua, so...).

If it were that easy to create a competent AI surely the devs would have done it by now.

So, we don't get bugs fixed and stuff balanced till years after people spot them because it is difficult to fix them? Sorry, but I disagree. I'm not expecting the Devs to make an all wise AI, that excells in every field, but it's not that difficult to improve it a little bit here and there (which alone would improve the AI immensely).

 

[Gedemon]

I of course agree that having the dll is better than not having it, but my guess is that the reluctance stems from business reasons that we aren’t privy to or cognizant of. 2k is quite the conservative publisher, and this industry as well as Civilization itself is quite different than it was when Civ 4 came out.

don’t forget that even for the Civ 4 dll, the devs had to push hard to be allowed to release it.

Some people seem to think it’s because the devs “would look bad” after seeing what the community did with the dll, but that’s a rather silly interpretation.

civ4 DLL was released very fast, I suppose you means civ5 DLL.

what was the source about the publisher being reluctant ?

and yes, the "look bad" argument is silly.

 

[pokiehl]

civ4 DLL was released very fast, I suppose you means civ5 DLL.

what was the source about the publisher being reluctant ?

and yes, the "look bad" argument is silly.

I did mean Civ 4. The source was Soren Johnson. I believe the context was he that he was speaking about it many years later in an interview or at some conference.

I'll have to dig it up when I have a chance. I hope my memory of this isn't wrong.

EDIT: It might be somewhere in this video:

 

[criZp]

If it were that easy to create a competent AI surely the devs would have done it by now.

The devs you're talking about actually managed to program the AI to be dumber than earlier when they made the AI do constant baseless demands. I think they simply don't give a dam about it. Even if it was easy to do they still wouldn't be doing it.

 

[Gedemon]

I did mean Civ 4. The source was Soren Johnson. I believe the context was he that he was speaking about it many years later in an interview or at some conference.

I'll have to dig it up when I have a chance. I hope my memory of this isn't wrong.

EDIT: It might be somewhere in this video:

Thanks, this was in my to watch list since some time, just give me the incentive to finally watch it. Firaxis should watch it again, especially the part about designing gameplay elements with the "how the AI's going to manage that ?" question in mind, IMO this come before writing a good AI.

The interesting part about the opposition vs the benefits of releasing the source code is at 51mn27s

 

[c4c6]

In this video above I like especially the contrasting of GoodAI versus FunAI.

I'd say you are up to something ... Bananas! ... Now I can see the Blue Monkeys of Destruction ... They stand on a desktop. Three in a line. And all three hold their hands in front of their eyes.

There's already a blueish Monkey of Destruction who stood on a desktop.

I suppose, I had a picture like this in mind:

 

[Gedemon]

In this video above I like especially the contrasting of GoodAI versus FunAI.

Yes, it expresses very clearly something I try to point out in the discussions about AI and why, even if it was technically possible, I'd never want to face a full machine-learning AI in a civ game.

 

[Zegangani]

Facing an AI that make ideal decisions would just feel like playing against a superior Alien. That's undesirable and would only make the AI an unbeatable Oppenent. Otherwise, an AI that make believable decisions, good and bad, would be far more better and much fun to play against, without it always making the same decisions.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

It's not as serious as you make it out to be, @ThunderLizard2. @sukritact has said that while it would be a good thing for the DLL to be released, it's not necessary as they already have enough tools to make good mods. @pokiehl has also stated that Civ 4 DLL also took the devs some time to get out, so patience could be key here.

Edit: So, it appears I read @pokiehl's comment wrong. Oops.

 

[ThunderLizard2]

It's not as serious as you make it out to be, Thunder. @sukritact has said that while it would be a good thing for the DLL to be released, it's not necessary as they already have enough tools to make good mods. @pokiehl has also stated that Civ 4 DLL also took the devs some time to get out, so patience could be key here.

Disagree 100%. Vox Populi or CPP for Civ VI WILL NOT happen until DLL code is released. For God's sake it's been five years already so release the damn code.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Disagree 100%. Vox Populi or CPP for Civ VI WILL NOT happen until DLL code is released. For God's sake it's been five years already so release the damn code.

While I agree that the DLL release is overdue at least two years, the fact is that we don't need to boycott Civ 6 products because of that. It's just not productive in the conversation between the devs and the players. Can we agree to disagree, though?

 

[ThunderLizard2]

While I agree that the DLL release is overdue at least two years, the fact is that we don't need to boycott Civ 6 products because of that. It's just not productive in the conversation between the devs and the players. Can we agree to disagree, though?

Sure - however, ducats is all these guys care about and understand. It's been too long and our patience has been rewarded with a garbage AI that's getting worse not better.

This sums it up best:

I did mean Civ 4. The source was Soren Johnson. I believe the context was he that he was speaking about it many years later in an interview or at some conference.

I'll have to dig it up when I have a chance. I hope my memory of this isn't wrong.

EDIT: It might be somewhere in this video:

It's at around 52 minutes in in the Q&A where Soren talks about "pushing it through" 2K legal. Great talk BTW.

 

[TreVor_ish]

Sure - however, ducats is all these guys care about and understand. It's been too long and our patience has been rewarded with a garbage AI that's getting worse not better.

If devs would actually decide to tweak some gameplay aspects, getting under consideration proposed changes (like world congress for instance), or perhaps at least try to work on communication with community about those, adding possibility to mod AI (and not introduce bigger problems with it after every update past year), It really would be a much better product.
EDIT:
AI is perhaps only able to semi efficiently deal with buildings (even added by mods).
Placing districts is also too much for it (thinking about possibility of better placement a turn or few in future, or even buying out a tile for better adjacency).
Tactically it's completely garbage, too many times being killed by a weaker unit on a hill with woods tile, not to mention siege or ability to reconquer lost city (even bigger case while playing dramatic ages). It's even bigger laugh when looking at usage of civilians. Builders roaming around far from lands with unimproved luxuries (even bigger issue with monopolies mode) or Great People getting a stroll to the other side of a continent. (all this and more on diety, which is even more baffling).

 

[Gedemon]

It's not as serious as you make it out to be, @ThunderLizard2. @sukritact has said that while it would be a good thing for the DLL to be released, it's not necessary as they already have enough tools to make good mods. @pokiehl has also stated that Civ 4 DLL also took the devs some time to get out, so patience could be key here.

civ4 DLL was released 6 months after the game's release date, and it is necessary to make large gameplay mods, the tools we have are mostly made for assets editing.

they are great to make new leaders or new civs, but they don't allow fixing/changing gameplay mechanisms.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

civ4 DLL was released 6 months after the game's release date, and it is necessary to make large gameplay mods, the tools we have are mostly made for assets editing.

they are great to make new leaders or new civs, but they don't allow fixing/changing gameplay mechanisms.

Oh. From other comments, I had assumed it was quite a wait. I will edit to make sure no misinformation spreads. Thanks.

 

[Askia Muhammad]

I don’t want to go too far off topic but frankly at this point I’m not likely to purchase a Civ 7 if they don’t release the DLL for 6. Modders clearly seem more dedicated to the game than its actual developers.

The AI has been in an untenable state for the entire duration of Civ 6. They are so bad that I probably wouldn’t have purchased a single expansion if I hadn’t found a weekly Civ 6 MP group. There is no fun, excitement, or challenge to facing the AI.