Any news on the possibility of DLL being released?

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Thanks, I really felt alone in that quest lately, almost ostracized at some point to be honest. The fragmentation of the community, and its actual hibernating state doesn't help, I suppose.

They won't change their minds if their is an impossibility (legal, cost..), but even if there is nothing blocking, they also won't change their plans if there is no (vocal) demand.

I've still not abandoned all hopes for civ6, so I'd welcome the source code with great joy, but even a few additional exposed methods would help a lot. As usual the question is how to ask. Yet (not) another thread will do I suppose.

I know a fair bit about programming but nothing about Civ game modding. Some games like Skyrim use a 3rd party tool to script extend, and there is always hooking into the DLL, (again, 3rd party tools/techniques), and providing extended functionality there. This takes a lot of time because you essentially have to reverse engineer the code. I am not sure it would even be viable depending on your goals.

If someone were to find a 3rd party way to extend the DLLs would that be worth it to you? I am not even sure what features of modding we are missing, and which ones could be solved by these techniques.
 
People who use mods are a tiny minority among all civ players - especially for civ 6 which is available on numerous platforms that don’t support modding at all. I have a hard time believing that people holding off on Civ 6 due to playing VP had any noticeable effect on sales whatsoever.
It depends on the mod. The Hall of Fame mod for Civ4, also used by the Game of the Month, is widely used because you need it to participate. There are many Civ4 players that will not play without it now that they have used it and are used to it.

In Civ6 Game of the Month, players are always asking if we will let them use the UI Mods. We have been begging for the Civ6 .dll to be released for a long time because we cannot have a real game competition without it.
 
I really doubt that.
I wasn't making any assumptions, that was an attempt of sarcastic comment as an answer to what Pok said about number of people that could make use of dll.
Well, I couldn't until I started :D

I'm not a programmer, I've learned with modding, anyone can.

And if one can read the logic behind modifiers, the base element of civ6 modding, I'm sure he can read anything... (well maybe not directly civ5's AssignStartingPlots.lua)
Exactly that. Reading programming language or programming itself is not a magical skill. You only need will and some time to spare.

Exactly this. It would be great if Firaxis would share the DLL source code with us. It would open up quite a few doors, most significantly with regards to controlling AI actions. It would probably be a great boon to documenting all the modifiers and lua methods, the current documentation we have is passable, but is quite spotty, and occasionally lacks important notes on usage.

But it is not going to miraculously spark some golden age of Civ VI modding, and as a modder I did and will actively avoid trying to rely on DLL mods as much as possible for the sake of compatibility and flexibility: the only mod I ever made that needed a DLL mod was Suzerainty I believe. A couple of other mods were flexible and used features from the Community Patch, but could work without it too.

If I ever get around to finishing my Civ VI Decisions mod, it’s not going to rely on a DLL mod for instance (and that mod isn’t held up by anything technical, I just don’t have the time to code up the decisions :p)

We all would like to see DLL access, but there is not a massive horde of angry modders laying siege to Firaxis’s gates trying to get it. I would be more than content to continue working without it.
I agree that it won't make any miracle happen immediately. But as Gedemon said it will give us a little more of understanding of how things work exactly within the engine, and after some time we will have a Vox Populi scope of mod in CIV VI that will spark many to make mod mods for it.
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However the main reason for me is to be able to mod AI.
 
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I know a fair bit about programming but nothing about Civ game modding. Some games like Skyrim use a 3rd party tool to script extend, and there is always hooking into the DLL, (again, 3rd party tools/techniques), and providing extended functionality there. This takes a lot of time because you essentially have to reverse engineer the code. I am not sure it would even be viable depending on your goals.

If someone were to find a 3rd party way to extend the DLLs would that be worth it to you? I am not even sure what features of modding we are missing, and which ones could be solved by these techniques.
it's out of my league, SKSE is like magic to me, can it be compared a bit like Harmony DLL patching for some unity games ? (including Old World, to allow multiple DLL mods compatibility)

with some of the latest releases, a Linker Addess Map file was left in the binaries folder for the XP2 DLL, which made me wonder if it would help to make something like that happening.
 
it's out of my league, SKSE is like magic to me, can it be compared a bit like Harmony DLL patching for some unity games ? (including Old World, to allow multiple DLL mods compatibility)

with some of the latest releases, a Linker Addess Map file was left in the binaries folder for the XP2 DLL, which made me wonder if it would help to make something like that happening.

I see. Well no promises but I can try to investigate a bit further to see what can be done here. Might be a fun project.
 
The source code is not just about compiling the DLL (and create mods incompatible between each others in the process), it's about reading directly into the code how the game behave, why this or that modifiers work or don't work as expected, which arguments to use with exposed methods that are not used in the game's base file, how to use AI operations.
It's also essential, as Leif said, to allow proper competitive play like Hall of Fame or GOTM where we know everyone is playing on the same code base and not cheating!
 
This. I've read @Infixo say that his ability to mod the AI is limited. I don't know if his opinion regarding DLL is more like sukritact/pokiehl's (preferable, but fine without) or more like Gedemon's (crucial).
It would help (a lot) to understand how the strategic AI works, but not essential AFAIK.

But for civ6 tactical AI it's essential.

It wouldn't be if we had more methods exposed to Lua, for example even before we had DLL access for civ5, we could directly control AI units. I had made a crude tactical AI in Lua for my WWII mod that was helping Air combat a lot, as well as anti-submarine warfare for destroyers. I also had "convoy" in that mod, working a bit like trader (automated route between cities) before they were implemented in one of the expansion.

It's a good example of why I miss the DLL so much in civ6, the fact that some things that were available without it for civ5 six months after release are now still locked deep in the core for civ6, like the above example, or direct and full control of diplomacy.

I mean I could imagine them not releasing the source, worst case scenario when I started modding civ6, but couldn't imagine them not releasing the source and not exposing critical gameplay methods previously exposed to Lua.
 
This. I've read @Infixo say that his ability to mod the AI is limited. I don't know if his opinion regarding DLL is more like sukritact/pokiehl's (preferable, but fine without) or more like Gedemon's (crucial).
To truly modify and improve AI => DLL is crucial. So, like @Gedemon .
 
I agree that if they can’t do the DLL for whatever reason, just adding some extra functionality to what we do have would be awesome. That + a Google doc just saying what some of the different things do or how we use them would be awesome.
I always hated all the modifiers that didn’t seem to be used and had no documentation on what exactly they did, if anything.
 
This isn't my position or that of any other modder you may be referring to. No one said has that we actively don't want the DLL to be released - we simply don't expect it and caution others against viewing it as a panacea for the game. Additionally, it is a reaction against clickbaity 'articles' or fan posts saying that modders are leaving Civ 6 or hate civ 6 because the DLL isn't there - that isn't some widespread phenomenon and it's important to clarify.

Exactly this. It would be great if Firaxis would share the DLL source code with us. It would open up quite a few doors, most significantly with regards to controlling AI actions. It would probably be a great boon to documenting all the modifiers and lua methods, the current documentation we have is passable, but is quite spotty, and occasionally lacks important notes on usage.

But it is not going to miraculously spark some golden age of Civ VI modding, and as a modder I did and will actively avoid trying to rely on DLL mods as much as possible for the sake of compatibility and flexibility: the only mod I ever made that needed a DLL mod was Suzerainty I believe. A couple of other mods were flexible and used features from the Community Patch, but could work without it too.

If I ever get around to finishing my Civ VI Decisions mod, it’s not going to rely on a DLL mod for instance (and that mod isn’t held up by anything technical, I just don’t have the time to code up the decisions :p)

We all would like to see DLL access, but there is not a massive horde of angry modders laying siege to Firaxis’s gates trying to get it. I would be more than content to continue working without it.

So as member of community you do not "not want it", but also you "don't need it".

In the context of my first answer ("no demand for it"), that's exactly the same thing.

Worst, not being "against it" while opposing "we don't need it" to article about civ6 modding future seems to be incoherent in my mind, or at least equivalent to "not want it".

Yes it was clic-bait, I won't deny that, but then what's civ6 modding future ? what would trigger a "golden age of Civ VI modding" ?

Serious question, no sarcasm intended here, while browsing the discord servers, I had the impression that civ6 modding is not hibernating only on CFC but out there as well. And read a lot of critics against Firaxis, bugs, hardcoding, lack of documentation...

More mods similar to City Lights maybe ? could that one became the Vox Populi of civ6 ?

Or, as I've also read from other modders, there is no point in asking for a modding future for civ6 because Firaxis simply do not care about modding anymore (I don't believe that one)
 
Seeing how AI behaves after every update during NFP, You have to be downright delusional saying it doesn't need adjusting....maybe we could also get pathfinding fixed
Golden Age System would also benefit with modding (getting golden should be similar to CIV V when You get golden with current affairs, and not planning to not get accidental or easy points to unnecessary increase threshold for next era).
Diplomacy would also get better (adding new interactions between leaders like who is ominous behind whos back)
Anyone for Adding Random Events??
How about rewriting Amenities system
Adding some spy missions that are a little more meaningful (Diplomats?)
Redone World Congress - You cannot tell me this iteration is not bland and completely stupid in some cases (let's ban some lux i never even heard of on the other side of the map, oh that question mark just voted for no amenities from our silver....good call)
...and list can go on
None of these things are possible without dll (or at least given a bigger scope of modifiers or lua objects).
 
I think that the perspective of people who can remember Civ IV modding is going to be different to those who started with Civ V or VI.

What I miss is the openness of modding possibilities with Civ IV that produced true total conversions such as Fall from Heaven II or Dune Wars.

In my view:
Civ IV was open both from a gameplay perspective and graphical perspective.
Civ V was open from a gameplay perspective but had significant graphical restrictions especially around terrain.
Civ VI is as open from a graphical perspective as Civ IV - although not necessarily as easy to work with - but more restricted from a gameplay perspective.

Could I create a FFH2-style magic system in Civ VI using Lua and Modifiers? Probably, with some difficulty. Could I teach the AI to use the magic system? Unlikely.

No one is saying that there is a lot more that can be done with Lua and Modifiers in Civ VI than has been done yet. It's just that things are more restricted than the previous two games and that is, in my view, a shame.

Of course, the lack of DLL source isn't the only reason why total conversions of Civ VI are unlikely. The graphical modding bar is higher than it was for Civ IV - I'm not sure that anyone other than Firaxis would have the resources, time or motivation to create the amount of artwork required. FFH2 and Dune Wars both took years and teams of people to create.

It's also worth remembering that the gameplay side of things for Civ V was evolved from the Civ IV codebase with a new graphical engine bolted in. This meant that the DLL for Civ IV was an evolution of the Civ V so I the architectural precedent was there for them to release. Civ VI was a scratch rewrite with all fresh code.

I guess I'm of the "build it and they may come" persuasion whereas some people are more like "they are not coming so there's no point in building it".
 
Thanks for the replies, everyone! It's a shame that there haven't been any changes in Firaxis' stance re: DLL, as I refuse to buy any more unpolished games, especially with horrible AI as the forum seems to suggest, even though I'm sorely tempted by all the nice stuff Civ VI has to offer. Thanks again!
 
I dont think that it’s a case of people not caring. I’d rather have civ7 than waiting for modders to fix their buggy game. If they wanted to release the DLL, then it should have been done years ago. Too late now for me to want it. I just hope they turn things around for civ7 and that this franchise survives. Civ6 is a good game, but a wrong direction for the franchise.
 
I just hope they turn things around for civ7 and that this franchise survives. Civ6 is a good game, but a wrong direction for the franchise.

From a purely financial standpoint, Civ VI must have been a big success, fastest selling in the series and sales expected to exceed Civ V, and now on more platforms than ever before: Windows, macOS, Linux, iOS, Nintendo Switch, PlayStation 4, Xbox One and Android. I fully expect Civ VII will come along in due course but the gap between games is likely to be longer. I think the franchise will survive OK whether people are happy with the direction or not.
 
It depends on the mod. The Hall of Fame mod for Civ4, also used by the Game of the Month, is widely used because you need it to participate. There are many Civ4 players that will not play without it now that they have used it and are used to it.

In Civ6 Game of the Month, players are always asking if we will let them use the UI Mods. We have been begging for the Civ6 .dll to be released for a long time because we cannot have a real game competition without it.

It's also essential, as Leif said, to allow proper competitive play like Hall of Fame or GOTM where we know everyone is playing on the same code base and not cheating!

Sure, I hear you both. My point wasn't to say that mods are unimportant (I myself couldn't enjoy Civ games nearly as much without mods!). I was just giving my POV to @AntSou 's question about whether VP affected Civ 6 sales. While many people here (civfanatics ;)) may use mods, I still contend that among the entire userbase, mod users are a minority, and so the number of people sticking to V solely because of VP and therefore not buying Civ 6 seems likely to be a minority.

So as member of community you do not "not want it", but also you "don't need it".

In the context of my first answer ("no demand for it"), that's exactly the same thing.

Let's be accurate in what we're talking about. You said specifically that we other modders "simply don't want the source code". That's what I was directly responding to, not "no demand for it." I hope this clarifies the point for you.

Worst, not being "against it" while opposing "we don't need it" to article about civ6 modding future seems to be incoherent in my mind, or at least equivalent to "not want it".

Well, again you're misrepresenting or misinterpreting the thrust of my argument: no one said "we're not against it" as if we'd only begrudgingly accept it. I clearly said we'd all like to have it. Why wouldn't we? More tools and more possibilities are better. So now amending your above statement accurately, we have "we'd like it" and "we don't necessarily need it [to accomplish what our modding goals are]" - these are not incongruous feelings.

I get that you are emotionally invested in having the DLL - you 100% adopted the mantle when you broadcasted your feelings and frustration in-game to all of your YNAMP subscribers (by far the most popular Civ 6 mod ever and currently sitting at nearly 1,000,000 subscribers). But because of this, you've indicated that you feel as if you're standing alone or that others are against you, when that isn't the case at all: you are clearly the most vocal advocate for the DLL so I don't know what your expectation is.

Just because for my own modding or for my own enjoyment of mods I'm not dying for the DLL (and rationally do not expect it at this point given Firaxis's messaging) doesn't mean that I or any other modder is against you or wouldn't appreciate having the DLL. But I think the popular sentiment among players who use mods (but do not make mods) being that "the DLL will fix the game" is shortsighted for multiple reasons, and you have played a huge part in actively cultivating that sentiment.

I don't want enormous gamechanging mods and I didn't personally enjoy Vox Populi. For my taste, mods like that tend to bloat the game, but of course many others love it, which is great. For my own skill, I do not know C+ and I don't care to learn it and then figure it out in the context of Civ 6 modding because my free time is limited and I can already accomplish nearly everything that I personally want to without the DLL. Also as @sukritact said, DLL mods have big compatibility issues which would also be a concern for me if I were making DLL mods. I'm allowed to feel this way without it being an attack on you.

Yes, having the DLL available would give other ancillary benefits aside from mods themselves as you've pointed out, but those are "nice to haves" - not utterly gamechanging.
 
Thanks for the replies, everyone! It's a shame that there haven't been any changes in Firaxis' stance re: DLL, as I refuse to buy any more unpolished games, especially with horrible AI as the forum seems to suggest, even though I'm sorely tempted by all the nice stuff Civ VI has to offer. Thanks again!

It's not that bad. Not horrible. I don't find the AI worse than in Civ 5 Brave New World. But it's now been 10 years since the release of 1UPT and the AI's ability to conduct war still feels deficient.

The introduction of Districts was a positive change but yet another puzzle for the AI to solve.

With 1UPT and Districts, Civilization has become very tile dependent, but the AI doesn't seem to have improved enough to handle the extra complexity. Worse, there aren't enough measures (read cheats) to allow the AI to circumvent those limitations. Imo the AI should be allowed to freely relocate Districts once it finds a better spot (when at peace); any Districts placed on features should immediately grant the feature yields as if chopped by a worker; Emperor, Immortal and Deity difficulties should provide more creative handicaps or boons, such as: increasing the District limit allowed to the AI per city / newly settled AI cities starting at two or three pop / increased unit health replenishment when not in combat, etc.

A lot of the limitations of the AI could have been softened if more effort had been put towards more interesting cheats.

Furthermore, the inability to place Districts on strategic and luxury resources not only is unfun to the player, it further limits the AI. I still don't understand this design choice.
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I suspect verticality will be introduced in the next iteration, which will increase the complexity of tiles even further.

In the end, in regards to combat, they may have to adopt the concept of Armies used in Amplitude Games, which seems like a simpler solution than making the AI smarter. Amplitude's system is self-contained, which creates a solvable puzzle with a finite number of possibilities, which should allow the AI to calculate the optimal path, like it does with Chess.
 
Yes, having the DLL available would give other ancillary benefits aside from mods themselves as you've pointed out, but those are "nice to haves" - not utterly gamechanging.
Agreed. I don't expect to get THAT much out of it as a non-DLL modder (I'm expecting the best benefit will be better documentation). And I'm not sure why so many people seem to think it would be revolutionary for me and all the other non-DLL modders if only we could just see it.

tl;dr: DLL would be great, but IMHO your mileage will vary.
 
But I think the popular sentiment among players who use mods (but do not make mods) being that "the DLL will fix the game" is shortsighted for multiple reasons, and you have played a huge part in actively cultivating that sentiment.
On one side I feel bad about that, because there are indeed issues that can't be fixed with the DLL. Map sizes crashes for one. Graphical glitches recently introduced for a second.

And yes, the way I expressed it has caused the false opinion that the DLL would solve the crashes on big maps, which I correct whenever I see it.

But on the other hand I do think that you, sukritact and others underestimate what can be done with it.

It will give the ability to "fix the game" on so many way that I can't think of them all, because there is no limitation on gameplay once you have access to it.

Almost every time someone says "I don't like the way this gameplay element is done by Firaxis", it could be fixed with DLL access.
 
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