Any redeeming qualities in the Octopus Overlords?

[Lone Wolf]

They seem pretty evil to me, but when a Good civ adopts that religion, they become only Neutral, not Evil. Are there any justifications of it besides the gameplay ones? In what ways you can use the Overlordy things so that you wouldn't be described as Evil?

Maybe you can have a limited use of them, having only a few key people go insane, and transforming only the convicted criminals to Drowns?

Or are they simply not evil enough?

 

[Trojan Sheep]

I think the main thing about the Overlords is that no one truly understands their motives, so the faith as a whole is rather morally murky (even if it is obviously implied that the Overlords aren't exactly warm and fuzzy). Most of the actions even the most dedicated cultists take aren't necessarily all that much more evil than some of the things Basium might do, but their end goal in doing those actions is far less clear.

Sacrificing people to make drowned is not that far off from Basium slaughtering unhelpful innocents to make angels. The big difference is one is doing it to save Erebus, and the other is falling back on the "Overlords told me to" cop out.

 

[Ur_Vile_Wedge]

And while the Overlords might be evil on a personal and even societal level, they aren't out to destroy Erebus and change the fundamental laws of nature a la the Illians or any of the Ashen Veil guys.

 

[Kael]

I would even assume that in some cultures becoming a drown is an honor.

I think the Fellowship and the Overlords are the least likely to have a significant agendas for empires that adopt them. The overlords can be beign, even beautiful. I always liked Xeunay's writing for the overlords because he always seemed to capture this.

Crazed madmen may be their most obvious traits from an army/empire perspective. But I imagine their actual worship to be much different.

I would imagine their temple sanctuary to be an organic shaped chamber with smooth blue and green glass tiles all over the walls. Like being inside a jeweled kidney. Water would run into the room through the altar and then through the chamber in fat grooves cut in the floor. This single flow of water would go throughout the temple, it would be the same that passed through each of the dreamers pools in more private chambers. It would also have a slight halluncinagetic effect on those who drank it, so that worshippers would occasionally see visions and hear messages while worshipping.

Because of the water the air would be thick and moist and there wouldn't be any real organized cermonies. Just faithful dreaming, praying, or talking to each other throughout the temple. In general the atmosphere would be quiet, but occasionally screams of rapture or alarm would ring out. Most would simply ignore them.

Some would be simply faithful decent people (this is where a lot of the assumptions go wrong, they think to specifically about what a given religion is) coming to ask for safe travel on their next naval voyage. They may annoint themselves with the water, pray for themselves and their love ones and leave. Some may drink and have no or a very minor reaction. Others may live in the temple, completely lost in the visions.

There are good people that worship the overlords, there are bad people that worship Junil. But as a state religion the overlords are going to require a certain loose morality to handle the things that go on in the temples. They arent very compassionate so its hard to imagine a good empire that worships them, but they dont have a dark agenda for their empire so it would be easy enough to be neutral with them.

 

[Verdian]

That is a beautiful description. OO has been one of my least favorite religions, because I never know what to associate them with (outside of madness). The other religions have very flavourful comparassions to classic fantasy. The closest OO comes to that is Cthulu, which is vague in general. It is nice to have a picture to work with, now.

That and "Octopus Overlords" does not really speak well of any of the beauty just mentioned, and there is no in-game reference (by that I mean, nothing outside of the pedia) to Dreamers. Perhaps Cultist could be changed to Dreamer?

Now I am going to be associating it all with Zeal, from Chrono Trigger.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

One think I like about OO is the option in the constelation description. It implies that celebration involves dancing, which brings in mind entertainment and happiness. I always think OO priesthood like mentally disturbed individuals, but again, those that worship the religion could clearly see the touches of a divine on them, giving them more value in their eyes...

 

[Iceciro]

I've always liked OO from a flavor perspective, even to the point of picking the religion when I know others would be stronger for me - like OO on a land map. Why?

Because of things like this.

 

[Grey Fox]

@Kael;
You've mentioned that the evil mages of the Age of Magic turned to water magic to try and find a weapon effective against the pure Fire of the righteous ones. Fire was the strongest element of this time and the mages were losing to the priests. Was any of these mages, maybe driven mad in their desperate search for the hidden powers of the water element, a reason this cult got started?

 

[MrUnderhill]

It's possible, but that would depend on whether they started using water before or after Danalin fell asleep.
Danalin is a neutral god and his precept only became twisted and associated with madness after Hastur got a hold of him.
Before then it was more closely related to calm and tranquility, as opposed to Bhall's passion and wrath.

 

[DirtyFinger]

If you want to know more about the Octopus Overlords you might want to check this out: Chtulhu
The dark gods of the depht of the sea, with all things wriggly and tentacly. Madness as a result of knowing too much about the deep ones is a driving theme in the Chtulhu scenario and the reason that the Asylum is an OO building.

If you read up a bit about asylums in general and the strange therapies some "scientists" tried on people (including but not limited to lobotomy) you might get a better undestanding why OO is rather considered neutral as opposed to evil: After all, if even we did it, it can't be so bad, eh ?

 

[Ribusprissin]

After all, if even we did it, it can't be so bad, eh ?

in before Godwin's Law

 

[Luckmann]

I -never- imagined Octopus Overlords as evil. They don't appear oppressive in their teachings, like some kind of 'de facto' fanatic theocracy. To me, they appear, alongside RoK, to be one of the most religion-like religions on Erebus. You have your church, and you have your priests, they have their strange rituals, and every Sunday people gather to pray to the Thousand-Tendriled Rulers of the Endless Dream-Depths.

"Everyday" religion at it's best. But with insanity and nightmares.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Perhaps you came in after slavery was no longer restricted to the OO, then? You don't need oppressive teachings to be oppressive

 

[Thunder_Gr]

"Everyday" religion at it's best. But with insanity and nightmares.

I can't remember the last time our local priest turned a warrior to a drown, but, well, I do get the meaning

 

[Guale]

Really the drowning is just a babtism that lasts a bit longer.

 

[Kael]

Really the drowning is just a babtism that lasts a bit longer.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newnesss of life." - Romans 6:4

 

[DioBrando]

Perhaps you came in after slavery was no longer restricted to the OO, then? You don't need oppressive teachings to be oppressive

Slavery is pretty much a part of "every day religion".

As well as mind stapling, but usually a more discrete form than the one used by the overlords.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

"Therefore we are drowned with him by baptism into death: that like as Sevarious was raised up while dead by the glory of the strange beasts from the depths of nightmares, even so we also should walk in newnesss of undeath." - Hemah 6:4

Fixed it for you

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Who is Sevarious? I know who Saverous is, but he was just a thrall, not a Drown.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I am more careful with spelling when I'm writing actual pedia entries; I do think you got the idea, however.

Saverous was nearly 9 feet tall, his body still strong, even if his mind was broken from the experiments. They made him into a thrull

probably it is a typo, in which case I was right the about the drown bit at least

The power beneath the Aegean waves is said to be more powerful than any other, but the Overlords are unfocused and follow a thousand different obscure agendas. The Disciples of the Overlords dare not expose themselves directly to the conflicting commands of their masters and instead use the poor as intermediaries. They are quickly driven insane by the process, which the disciples prefer as it keeps them from manipulating the message. They also share the process of turning a Warrior into The Drown, undead thralls, a process with few volunteers