Anyone else quit playing?

Have not played in a few weeks. Guess I am done now too.

I have a question. Has Firaxis actually come out and said that they know the AI is bad? I mean have they said that? I ask because I am starting to wonder if my first impressions were right. When we first saw the graphics many complained that it looks childlike, phone friendly, Revolutions like. It meant to some that this would be a simpler game for the masses. We were told no that the graphics were for functionality to see more of what was going on easier from the map and that the game itself would be deep and challenging. Well I bought that line and am not getting the deep and challenging game that I was promised.

So now I wonder if the AI is not broken at all, is it actually working as intended.

If they have come out and said they know of these problems and are going to fix them please point me in that direction. From what I have seen though they arent communicating much.
 
I don't buy a case that this game was "made for the masses".

If that was the goal, it wouldn't have decades-old control issues that make it a fight to play, hidden rules, and difficult to learn information in addition to the outright hidden information. That's not "newbie-friendly" design or implementation. Making games needlessly take hour(s) longer than otherwise simply due to turn calculations + especially weak UI is not something accessible to the masses.

If accessibility were the goal, the AI turns would be blazing fast and you could view important information with minimal effort. There would also be less potentially important information.

If the goal was "a simpler game for the masses", the choices made prior to release are strange. If that's the intended goal the game is a failure.
 
One of the reasons I quit (and there are many lol) is the Civs themselves, which I don't see mentioned alot. They don't seem... coherent, complete, flow-y, thematic. Like there are so many words to describe the abilities, there are multiple abilities within abilities, but the attempted complexity just makes the civ uninteresting. Simplicity is best when it comes to thematics. Take the Inca from Civ5 for example. It's so simple.


- Half cost roads.
- Free roads on hills.
- All units move faster on hills.
- Can build farms on hills that are more powerful next to mountains.
- Unique archer that withdraws if attacked by melee.


I used just ~30 words to accurately describe the entire kit of Inca. Not because I was trying to keep the word count low, but because the kit itself is simple. It makes sense when you look at it and imagine playing it. "Ok, I'll settle near some mountains and hills. That should get me some good growth from the farms, and give me a movement advantage in wars. So I can grow big and defend my land. Cool, let's try it out". And that's that. Simple wording, simple kit, thematic, feels good to play. The bonuses aren't complex, but super impactful (especially the movement on hills, you can 'feel' that bonus from turn 1).

In comparison, the Civ6 bonuses just seem over-complicated but non-impactful at the same time. Takes over 100 words to describe Britain's abilities (there's even a scroll bar near the Civ's description in-game lol), and they don't even come across as thematic imo. So say the theme is world domination (which would be fitting). Ok, unique ship for conquering seas, unique melee for invading foreign continents, unique harbor for claiming and utilizing the seas. These all make sense. But why does she have a random cultural/tourism bonus? Am I going to invade a bit of the world, then stop to set up museums and whatnot before conquering the rest? And why do I get a melee unit after taking a city? Why does she have 5 bonuses at all, when all other civs only get 4? Wouldn't this make more sense;

Victoria bonus - All cities conquered on foreign continents receive a free trade route or All cities conquered on foreign continents create less war weariness.

UU - Redcoat as-is

UU2 - Sea Dog minus the invisibility (why does it have invisibility lol)

UD - Royal Navy Dockyard. As-is plus; If city is located on foreign continent, provides free trader unit upon completion.

So the theme is straight forward, the bonuses are simple and interdependent, and you can imagine quite clearly before even getting into the game how you would play it out. It's exciting, it's concise, it's thematic. You also understand what Victoria stands for in the hands of the AI. "Oh there's that *&Q@#* again, she's going to expand to my continent mid-game and go for world dom. I should probably rush her early or become her friend early". Strong themes, strong playstyles, strong characters, all clearly defined. This, to me, is fun. Not overly complicated, could go 3 victory types, dependent on map, super contextually weak/strong, overall scattered bonuses that make civs seem just.. gray. I think the most coherent civ in Civ6 is the Aztecs. Go to war early. Capture land, which provides more luxes, which provides stronger units, which fuels the war. Take workers and rush districts to stay relevant regarding infrastructure. Makes great sense on paper and in-game.

I just can't have fun with the game when I don't see the civs as clearly defined characters to play around. I have no idea what some of these civs stand for or how they play out, so when I see them in-game I have no immersion. I don't care. They're just another gray civ that is in the way of X victory path because they're not thematically concise. I much preferred Civ5's civs, as they were bolder. I knew which were peaceful, which were cultural, scientific, which were backstabby, etc. It was like I was playing with old friends.
 
I guess my reasons are not the same as yours. None of the things you mentioned are issues for me. They can all be dealt with or worked around. My issue is the AI. There is no work around for that and it can't be ignored. At the end of the day I feel it may be made for the masses because there is no deep threat posed by the AI. That threat exists in previous versions of Civ and in other games. Never approaching human levels of course but at least challenging. I don't get that and I wonder if that's on purpose. That's all I am saying. There are many other problems with this game but I see them as bugs. And none of those are game breaking for me.

The AI issue ion not a bug. That's a design decision or pure laziness on their part. I kind of wonder about something. They used to gush about running all of these simulations where there were no humans in the games, just AI vs AI. If that is how they did their testing it might give them data that looked good. Wow guys look how balanced this is! If most of what they did were thousands of these simulated games that might explain why the AI is no good. Maybe they really didn't know it was bad since they didn't ever play it.

Either way I am not a fan. Bugs I get and accept but this isn't the first Civ game to come out. Counting all of Firaxis other games and Civ together they have a dozen or more top tier games to come out since Civ 1 launched. This ain't there first rodeo.
 
There is also clearly a related issue here. In Civ 4 I could more or less play up to King (or whatever the equivalent was), but in Civ 5 and especially Civ 6, I have few problems navigating through Deity after a short while. I doubt I have become that much better in the past 10-12 years, and the games are different enough in any case to make that a moot argument.

Edit: Btw. I am not one of the nostalgia junkies here, and enjoyed Civ 5: BNW immensely, as well as the initial adventurous 60-80 hrs of Civ 6 exploration - until the fatigue set in.
 
10 to 12 years is a very long time to get used to the overarching design principles of a franchise.

Have you tried revisiting Civ 4? I used to do nothing but Chieftan on CiV (and earlier titles), but with BE I practised to about Gemini and I found I was much more able to handle Prince in Civ 6 as a result.
 
@Gorbles,
Civ5/6 are a joke when it comes to difficulty and it is all due to 1upt and the AI's inability to cope with it. Civ3/4 were a lot more challenging
 
I have 165 hours of Civ6 and haven't touched it since 15th December.
 
Wow, you still keep on reading this forum. You must still be very interested in the game.

If you had been a fan of a soccer team for 25 years, and they show their latest team composed of kids with trendy hair and no skill, wouldn't you be disappointed too... if you are a fan for 25 years, it's kinda hard to just drop the team like any other team.

In case you are dimwitted, its an analogy to dropping the civilization franchise having been a fan since civ1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 - I didn't particularly like civ5 as much as the earlier, but I really hate civ6 so far. I don't know if I'd rather have a civ7 now or just really drop the franchise. I come to these forums for news - in hope that Firaxis fixes this mess of a game. Your "clever" passive aggressive comment makes me equally tired of this forum.
 
10 to 12 years is a very long time to get used to the overarching design principles of a franchise.

Have you tried revisiting Civ 4? I used to do nothing but Chieftan on CiV (and earlier titles), but with BE I practised to about Gemini and I found I was much more able to handle Prince in Civ 6 as a result.
Dunno if I understood your argument correctly, but if I revisit Civ 4 and easily handle the top difficulties, I will rethink my own arguments against Civ 5 and 6 regarding difficulties.
 
@Xur:

I'm not sure you can take the moral high ground over people being passive-aggressive when you call them dimwits for no reason.

@topresch:

Yeah that was pretty much all I meant by it. There are plenty of valid criticisms to be made of Civilisation 6, but you also have to consider if you've become more acclimatised to the franchise in general. That certainly happened to me.
 
Wow, you still keep on reading this forum. You must still be very interested in the game.
Can we stop this?

I read this forum every day, perhaps twice, and practically every topic as well. Yes, Civilization V, and especially VI, are terrible. Yes, Civilization IV is the best. I fit completely in the convenient category for 'those people' you have established in your head - except, of course, that I do not feel the urge to speak about this in every single thread. I am mostly a silent reader, observing peoples' opinions about Civilization VI, observing how the game is changing.

You see, I am not here to propagate the glory of Civilization IV, nor am I here to relentlessly stab Civilization VI to death - I am here because I quite like the Civilization series, and hope that it might change for the better.
 
@Xur:

I'm not sure you can take the moral high ground over people being passive-aggressive when you call them dimwits for no reason.

@topresch:

Yeah that was pretty much all I meant by it. There are plenty of valid criticisms to be made of Civilisation 6, but you also have to consider if you've become more acclimatised to the franchise in general. That certainly happened to me.

I can trash civ 6 deity with a hand behind my back mentally and I've actually regressed a little at civ 4, having forgotten some of the details under the hood after not playing it for so long.

There are multiple systemic reasons civ 4 is more challenging than 5 or 6 at high levels of play. It isn't just AI. It isn't just 1 UPT. Mistakes in civ 4 are more punishing (settling 1 more city than you can afford on deity is *consistently* a game-losing decision, by itself), there are more opportunities to make those kinds of mistakes, and existential threat to enemy military is greater throughout the game. Stuff like tall v wide and eurekas cut into the relative economy scaling, while 1UPT makes numerical advantages less impactful.

There are a lot of factors there. Even simple whip micro was a chance for mistakes that could cost production. Nowadays it's a matter of losing production by not working a tile or neglecting housing only, restraints that also existed back then.

Some of it was rote mathematical computation micro, and really didn't add much to overall strategy...though again this is exactly the kind of thing that would be to the advantage of an AI. Where civ 5 and 6 really lose is the frequency of meaningful decisions and impactfulness of making them.

Some of it is correctable (civ 6 diplomacy is more shallow, but has tools to be deeper than civ 4 ever was if they ever bother to tune behavior). Other things less so.
 
One of the reasons I quit (and there are many lol) is the Civs themselves, which I don't see mentioned alot. They don't seem... coherent, complete, flow-y, thematic. Like there are so many words to describe the abilities, there are multiple abilities within abilities, but the attempted complexity just makes the civ uninteresting. Simplicity is best when it comes to thematics. Take the Inca from Civ5 for example. It's so simple.


- Half cost roads.
- Free roads on hills.
- All units move faster on hills.
- Can build farms on hills that are more powerful next to mountains.
- Unique archer that withdraws if attacked by melee.


I used just ~30 words to accurately describe the entire kit of Inca. Not because I was trying to keep the word count low, but because the kit itself is simple. It makes sense when you look at it and imagine playing it. "Ok, I'll settle near some mountains and hills. That should get me some good growth from the farms, and give me a movement advantage in wars. So I can grow big and defend my land. Cool, let's try it out". And that's that. Simple wording, simple kit, thematic, feels good to play. The bonuses aren't complex, but super impactful (especially the movement on hills, you can 'feel' that bonus from turn 1).

In comparison, the Civ6 bonuses just seem over-complicated but non-impactful at the same time. Takes over 100 words to describe Britain's abilities (there's even a scroll bar near the Civ's description in-game lol), and they don't even come across as thematic imo. So say the theme is world domination (which would be fitting). Ok, unique ship for conquering seas, unique melee for invading foreign continents, unique harbor for claiming and utilizing the seas. These all make sense. But why does she have a random cultural/tourism bonus? Am I going to invade a bit of the world, then stop to set up museums and whatnot before conquering the rest? And why do I get a melee unit after taking a city? Why does she have 5 bonuses at all, when all other civs only get 4? Wouldn't this make more sense;

Victoria bonus - All cities conquered on foreign continents receive a free trade route or All cities conquered on foreign continents create less war weariness.

UU - Redcoat as-is

UU2 - Sea Dog minus the invisibility (why does it have invisibility lol)

UD - Royal Navy Dockyard. As-is plus; If city is located on foreign continent, provides free trader unit upon completion.

So the theme is straight forward, the bonuses are simple and interdependent, and you can imagine quite clearly before even getting into the game how you would play it out. It's exciting, it's concise, it's thematic. You also understand what Victoria stands for in the hands of the AI. "Oh there's that *&Q@#* again, she's going to expand to my continent mid-game and go for world dom. I should probably rush her early or become her friend early". Strong themes, strong playstyles, strong characters, all clearly defined. This, to me, is fun. Not overly complicated, could go 3 victory types, dependent on map, super contextually weak/strong, overall scattered bonuses that make civs seem just.. gray. I think the most coherent civ in Civ6 is the Aztecs. Go to war early. Capture land, which provides more luxes, which provides stronger units, which fuels the war. Take workers and rush districts to stay relevant regarding infrastructure. Makes great sense on paper and in-game.

I just can't have fun with the game when I don't see the civs as clearly defined characters to play around. I have no idea what some of these civs stand for or how they play out, so when I see them in-game I have no immersion. I don't care. They're just another gray civ that is in the way of X victory path because they're not thematically concise. I much preferred Civ5's civs, as they were bolder. I knew which were peaceful, which were cultural, scientific, which were backstabby, etc. It was like I was playing with old friends.

As a not particularly patriotic Briton, I think the current bonuses work quite well, thematically (not overly sold on them from a usefulness perspective). The idea is you build an empire first, then late game you decide to be "nice" and switch to a culture victory. You know, representing the British Empire, and the theft of all the conquered people's stuff to put in the British Museum.
 
I can trash civ 6 deity with a hand behind my back mentally and I've actually regressed a little at civ 4, having forgotten some of the details under the hood after not playing it for so long.

There are multiple systemic reasons civ 4 is more challenging than 5 or 6 at high levels of play. It isn't just AI. It isn't just 1 UPT. Mistakes in civ 4 are more punishing (settling 1 more city than you can afford on deity is *consistently* a game-losing decision, by itself), there are more opportunities to make those kinds of mistakes, and existential threat to enemy military is greater throughout the game. Stuff like tall v wide and eurekas cut into the relative economy scaling, while 1UPT makes numerical advantages less impactful.

There are a lot of factors there. Even simple whip micro was a chance for mistakes that could cost production. Nowadays it's a matter of losing production by not working a tile or neglecting housing only, restraints that also existed back then.

Some of it was rote mathematical computation micro, and really didn't add much to overall strategy...though again this is exactly the kind of thing that would be to the advantage of an AI. Where civ 5 and 6 really lose is the frequency of meaningful decisions and impactfulness of making them.

Some of it is correctable (civ 6 diplomacy is more shallow, but has tools to be deeper than civ 4 ever was if they ever bother to tune behavior). Other things less so.
It's an interesting psychological argument, the severity of punishment (wrt. decision and consequence). I mean it's vaguely a part of the whole design process, but obviously psych. feedback is (more and more) important in games design. Is stepping up a particular punishment (or reward) always a good design principle? Or does it mask a weakness in the underlying design?

I mean there's obviously no one overarching answer; it's dependent on context. But it colours our perception of other such choices. Do you find CiV's decisions softer because you acclimatised to harder choices in a previous game, or vice versa? There are no easy answers haha; it's very subjective. Some decisions are made in development based purely on a "feeling" of what is the right choice to make. My opinions are coloured by really getting back into the series at CiV / BE, for example.
 
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