APOCALYPSE EDITION: Sons of Monarchy XII: Pacal of Maya

[shulgi]

@Nicol

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I believe I had two holkans in the city and two just outside and he placed his units just outside of the city the same turn as the DoW. I had just been fighting off an attack from Alex, there really wasn't much I could do. I wouldn't say early cities are unconquerable even with axe rushes and I've seen TMIT do well with chariots. Being fast helps. They only mass build archers when they have already been beaten badly and have the production/population to do so. edit - well not always. noto2 had a "swords suck" thread here sometimes things just don't go as planned.

I am replaying the game now and it's going better - not to say my position was impossible in the previous game just very bad. I'll update where I'm at later.

For your game, Alex sounds like a better target... maybe... though Shaka looks pretty strong. Shaka + Napoleon alliance could be a lot of trouble for you later on... Cutting them down to size now could be better especially if Alex can help you.. Or even if Toku could help you. Not sure.

I didn't think the food was that great on this map and have been just trying to get my cities up to size to work all tiles whether it be farms, cottages or mines and I haven't really gone for workshops or windmills much yet.

I find competition for building MoM is pretty tight and you probably need production for troops. Though you have a lot of forests left. I'd go GLB probably. Looks like you could have been chopping more and have build too many roads IMO.

 

[Ghpstage]

@ Nicol.Bolas

@Prodeo

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how did you manage not to get declared upon, with so little units on immortal? or is there a stack somewhere?
seems to me most civs would declare on you the moment your strength is below 0,7 and they get their 3 attack units

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Wasn't directed at me but the answer is obvious if you look at the diplo screenshots . Prodeo simply bribed the AIs into wars, Alex and Genghis against Toku and Shaka against Genghis.

Contrary to popular belief power is very bad for keeping peace, it only works like an on/off switch preventing war when you pass a certain power ratio against a certain AI. Unfortnately most of those thresholds are very high, to keep Monty at bay for
example you neeed more than 1.95 times his power.

The problems with this are twofold, first if you had that much power compared to them you coud easily steamroll them, and second keeping even equal power with Immortal AIs in the earlier parts of the game is practically impossible.
Which leaves you with the other option, peace through diplomacy, which in the case of Prodeos game means peace through planned chaos

 

[pepe26]

who said anything about immortal? he said, he's playing on monarch... and the strength thing has VERY little to do with the AI DoWing or not

 

[Gojeran]

Note the screenshots are not all the size as I started this game on my laptop and finished it on my desktop when I returned home from vacation, sorry its that is odd!

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So the early days lets me know right off the bat what kind of game I was in for...

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Turn 6

Turn 9

Turn 34

Turn 71

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I also knew that near my starting location was horses and the chance to rush one of the D-Bags out before they could kill me later or at least I hoped that was the case so on turn 91...

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Take his capital on turn 118, very tough "rush" I thought I was out of game here and now...

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I finish him off a few turns later and not a moment too soon because now things get VERY interesting for me for the next long while

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Turn 126 I accept because I am trying to foster relations with the Buddhist block and honestly wanted to diplo points but was not really expecting to fight very much...

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Boy was I WRONG!! turn 130 Shaka does what Shaka does and declares war!!

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I fight against Alexander with my remaining horse archers from the early rush was against the Khans and am finally able to get myself out of war for free on turn 139.

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Still at war with the mighty Zulu empire I attempt to somehow salvage my destroyed army and economy and limp toward Monarchy. On turn 159 I pay my war out of a war with Shaka... It was a good deal as I REALLY could not afford to keep the war going and wanted some time to breath/think about my next move.

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Traded Napoleon Code of Laws for Calendar on turn 162, get myself Civil Service on turn 175 and do a civics swap on the same turn.

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I am still trying to foster relations with the Buddhist block so when this request comes my way I had to pull the trigger

Shake sends a small stack into my lands which I crush and get myself back out of war ASAP- gotta farm dem points!!

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Here a quick look at the diplo and tech situation at turn 196. I am still behind in the tech game... that early war both saved me and cost me in that regard for a long while.

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I continue to trade techs as I am able with Napoleon but nevertheless I lose the Lib race to Monty by 4 turns...

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I had decided to try to win with the Apostolic Palace by capturing it from Alex and spreading around the religion and having my vassals vote for me and my friends too! I was massing up trebuchets and maces and teching for rifles when an opportunity presents itself... slightly early but whatever I go for it!!

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He was already at war with Alex so now I was too- Forward!! Trebuchets and maces and go crush Alex. His empire was much smaller than mine also sometime mid war I bring in rifles and dial up another trade and make another civic swap! I let Alex cap but only after I have taken most of lands, the AP Palace and his pride. Here are various shots of all that... like you need anymore shots!!

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[Gojeran]

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I decide at the point to give up the AP route and instead crush the crushers and trun my sights toward my ole friend Shaka and this time its for keeps!! SAY HI TO MY RIFLES TREBS and CANNOS Shakaaaaaaaa!! Oh! Of note here is that Napoleon is already at war with Shaka and I don't want Shaka to cap to him so I bribe Napoleon out of the war after I take 2 borderish cities from Shaka and start presses toward his capital.

The rifles and cannons do there job very well indeed and he gives up. Use a random great artist to assist in the battlefield.

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He gives up. New diplo/tech shot post war.

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Next up is Monty. Forgot to take pictures hehe. Took several of his cities and demolished his sizeable stack with massive collateral from the cannons.
Turn 305 war!

Turn 314 done and done!

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Well now that only leaves my best buddy Napoleon who is ahead of me in tech but FORWARD to victory! I have lots of "allies" and a vastly bigger standing army. Last war break out on turn 322.

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He sends his stack!

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I crush it with my stack. So many dead bodies lmao! and move toward Paris and victory!!

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After I take Paris with his stack down Napoleon meets his Waterloo and its game

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Huge write up I know but I was super happy to not only win my first game on Monarch but to have it be in a game where I dominate with force against a ton of warmonger Dbag AIs. Will play the next game for sure- hopefully I can pull out another W! Final shots and score posted below. Also is it ok to post this many pictures and this long of a game write up? If it isn't I'll try to tone it down next time

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[shulgi]

Up to 1590 AD

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Emperor, K-mod

Attacked 1300 BC by Genghis who I just happened to have been scouting, saw 9 archers coming and was able to get ready. Border city and up to the corn got pillaged while I was slowly taking out the invaders and reinforcements, got a great general out of the ordeal as well. Also bribed Monty, Shaka and Alex on Genghis though I'm not sure they did much. The shared war diplo bonus was worth it on its own.

Launched an invasion with elephants and catapults because Genghis had built the great lighthouse for me and was falling behind in tech. I didn't manage to take this city which got reinforcements quickly but walked past, took the capital + GLH and made peace as he had a lot of spears and a fair number of axes.

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I built a second force of elephants and cats/trebuchets since my main force was stuck in Karakorum. Things had gotten too peaceful so I bribed Shaka (second place AI) on Napoleon (first place overall). Monty and Toku sensed a good time and declared on Napoleon as well. Genghis attacked me just before I got cuirasiers. I took the cities West of the capital with elephants and trebs, the others with cuirasiers. I never did manage to defeat this stack of spears and axes completely.

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Napoleon was definitely losing, maybe down to three cities. One of the AIs had asked me to join the war a while ago and I did. Sent my cuirasiers toward Paris which was guarded by a lot of musketeers and longbows. I killed a lone horse archer and made peace. Being DoWed by Alex definitely was a big part of me giving up so easily.

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Alex had declared on GK when he was very nearly dead but couldn't get his army to any of the cities before me. I guess this made me a land target and he declared on me very soon after the Mongol war ended. Or maybe it was a bribe. I only needed to take two cities with cuirs before he folded.

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Why stop a good cuir rush? Backstabbed Toku. Bribed Monty off Napoleon, hoping he'd attack Toku.

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And here's where I am right now.
Shaka killed Napoleon, Toku peace vassaled to Shaka, Monty peace vassaled to me

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I just got rifles, plan to take out Toku, march on Paris (a lot of GGs I bet) and see where it goes from there.

 

[shulgi]

Just a friendly reminder that peace vassals suck and should not be trusted. I forgot this because I was so much more dominant than my passal Monty and fairly close to winning. If he vassals to the other guy I'll be livid. Shouldn't happen but who knows, he is at friendly now.

Can hurry production of Kremlin or Statue of Liberty. Have 20 or so cities, currently in representation, also not running slavery so can't rush buy at the moment. Thinking that universal suffrage + Kremlin is best since I used cottages pretty extensively.

 

[Choggy]

Lol at this game!

Whoever suggested

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Oracle->Feudalism for early Longbows

was right on the money.

 

[nicbolas2]

2400BC
1000AD

1905AD - after a good start and mid game I messed up in the industrial era badly - something I think is pretty uncommon.

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Summary: large backward empire, Nappy on technological runaway.
Finally got the hammer economy functioning a bit, so I started teching, but this whole hammer economy was a HUGE mistake and might cost me the game.
(currently I am mass building levees and jails - but otherwise some of the cities are on wealth ofc).
civics: HR-BC-caste system - (also useless, should have used slavery all the way) - state property (don't ever build a workshop before this) - theocracy)

I already tried to take Orleans twice and failed. I had to make peace with Nappy (I gifted him Bulawayo to halt his advance toward Ulundi which is badly protected and is my GP farm, my grenadiers and rifles simply could not stop his last stack of modern units)

I would like to try next assault with cannons and infantry, what do you think?

Also I am a bit worried about Alex, he was my war ally, but now only he is continuing the war - he might become a vassal too.

So, any ideas how to solve this? I think i can still win this, but I welcome any tips.
Also I post a save, so anyone with buffy mod is extremely welcome.

SS

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[ben-jammin]

Lol at this game!

Whoever suggested

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Oracle->Feudalism for early Longbows

was right on the money.

A better suggestion would be to use the commerce-heavy start to get to alpha quickly and bribe your neighbours into wars so you dont need LBs. This is far, far superior.

 

[Choggy]

A better suggestion would be to use the commerce-heavy start to get to alpha quickly and bribe your neighbours into wars so you dont need LBs. This is far, far superior.

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With this set of lunatics? I think you're a far, far superior player than me - I just waited until Nappy got Alpha and traded Monarchy for it before setting Shaka and Alex loose on the world.

 

[ben-jammin]

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With this set of lunatics? I think you're a far, far superior player than me - I just waited until Nappy got Alpha and traded Monarchy for it before setting Shaka and Alex loose on the world.

They are warmongers but not strong techers. They are very easy to bribe. With this start you can get out to an early tech lead even on deity. In fact what I described is exactly what I did on deity, so it should be quite a bit easier on lower difficulties. Go writing->alpha as soon as you have minimal worker techs. In fact with the AIs on this map, you really only have to worry about the ones right beside you, and then only until you have them endlessly at war elsewhere. The more distant AIs will take care of starting their own wars for you.

Actually on emperor or lower, with this start you could probably manage this while still building the oracle.

 

[guspasho]

Spoiler :

I played on Noble. Apocalypse edition sounded intimidating.

Settled 1S like everyone else. With FIN and Ball Courts and all the happy resources around it looks like a pretty easy game, good for either whipping armies or culture/space race.

Super cheesy but I stole three workers from Shaka before his second border pop, and one worker from Genghis. After that the game was over. I built blocker cities against the Zulu Mongolian, and French cores, had 10 cities before 100BC and a runaway tech lead. Bribed 2nd place Napoleon into a war against 3rd place Alexander, Monty and Toku dogpiled, as did I for the mutual struggle diplo bonus. No one seems to be fighting but it keeps them off my back. I have four walled border cities full of longbows so I'm not too worried. Maybe I'll beef them up with elepult stacks in case anyone tries anything, or to go stomping, and I'll probably wonder-whore since no one else is building wonders. Seems like a win.

 

[Choggy]

In fact what I described is exactly what I did on deity

Actually on emperor or lower, with this start you could probably manage this while still building the oracle.

I sort of guessed you were playing this at Deity...I'm messing about with this one on Monarch, haven't played CiV4 for a few months now but saw this game and just couldn't resist it.

You're absolutely right about the tech rate - it's so slow that I would actually say that trading Alpha at Monarch/Emperor level is a bad thing to do as it gives the AI an early tech boost - better to let them crawl to it and trade for it with a huge tech lead.

 

[ben-jammin]

I sort of guessed you were playing this at Deity...I'm messing about with this one on Monarch, haven't played CiV4 for a few months now but saw this game and just couldn't resist it.

You're absolutely right about the tech rate - it's so slow that I would actually say that trading Alpha at Monarch/Emperor level is a bad thing to do as it gives the AI an early tech boost - better to let them crawl to it and trade for it with a huge tech lead.

Normally trading them alpha would increase their tech rate (though I'm not convinced it would neccessarily on monarch or lower), but in this case it will probably slow them down. They will be building and losing units instead of expanding and teching. And being warmongers, the wars are likely to last a long time. If you're lucky, it'll create worsty enemy-type scenarios that cause the AIs to have wars off and on for most of the game.

 

[shulgi]

Game wrap

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Conquest victory, 1864, 94766 pts, emperor, k-mod
Here is nearing the end of the Japanese war. I wiped the Japanese out since they were so small and controlled three shrines. I took these two cities and Monty took the one to the Northeast. After this, Monty quit being a peace vassal but remained at war with Shaka.

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I let Monty go in peace since Shaka was a bigger priority. I did take a peace for a bit more than ten turns while I improved my production base with more watermills and workshops. Meanwhile, Shaka took his stack over to Monty which only stalemated him. Eventually Monty asked me to join this war - wait, didn't you say I was too weak 10 turns ago? oh well, good opportunity and I was almost to infantry. Shaka was willing to capitulate after I took two more cities, Alex took one and my second stack was marching on Ulundi which was poorly defended (it was a size 10 or so not too long ago).

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I mostly built units after that and declared on Monty a while later. Here's his end, giving up after losing Tlatelolco and Tenochitlan

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Here's the heart of the empire. Capitol has Oxford and Wallstreet, Chichen Itza has heroic epic, Mayapan has national epic, Lakambha and Uxmal were critical for much of the game as well.

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The only wars in this game that I didn't initiate through an attack or bribe was Genghis attacking me twice. I could have bribed more early but I also had fairly good relations with everyone except Genghis and Toku.

Don't think I built a single ball court! It is a good UB but I just didn't need it. Holkan was very useful as I was slow to get iron. Pacal's traits are awesome.
Thanks!

 

[pepe26]

the point of getting alpha quickly here is not to be able to trade techs per se but rather the ability to bribe people in on each each... worrying about their tech rate is absolutely not necessary since all of them are HORRIBLE techers anyway... only thing you dont wanna trade to them, are key military techs that might give them an edge over an opponent or even you. then they might become a problem.

putting them at war with somebody else as early as possible is the safest way of keeping them away from yourself. in the save I posted earlier, I havent been at war even once up until 1300AD I think. I did the suggested oracle feudalism thing which - because I played it smartly diplomacy-wise for once - proved to be useless. still the risk of getting declared on was pretty high so the precaution was a sound one

 

[vranasm]

I wonder how you did it guys.... I tried on Immortal, but couldn't find anyone who would like to war without me going into war...

they all were open to ideas, but the price was too big since only alpha didn't suffice.

 

[pepe26]

I gave away a lot to make them declare just to keep them of my ass... not sure if thats a problem but I dont feel like it is...

 

[Choggy]

the point of getting alpha quickly here is not to be able to trade techs per se but rather the ability to bribe people in on each each... worrying about their tech rate is absolutely not necessary since all of them are HORRIBLE techers anyway... only thing you dont wanna trade to them, are key military techs that might give them an edge over an opponent or even you. then they might become a problem.

putting them at war with somebody else as early as possible is the safest way of keeping them away from yourself. in the save I posted earlier, I havent been at war even once up until 1300AD I think. I did the suggested oracle feudalism thing which - because I played it smartly diplomacy-wise for once - proved to be useless. still the risk of getting declared on was pretty high so the precaution was a sound one

I think you've hit the nail right on the head here...deity players such as yourself and Ben-jammin have a full understanding of the diplo aspect of the game. I'm not very good at diplomacy and prefer the pointy-sword approach to being subtle. Having early LB's meant that I just laughed as I got backstabbed and dog-piled all the way to Gunpowder. I've taken on what you both have said but I still maintain that at Monarch/Emperor level, the Oracle->Feudalism gambit is a very solid start. I did try the Alpha beeline...

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But at Monarch the tech rate was so slow I got it before anybody even got Writing. Did a restart, Oracle'd Civil Service.

I will try the diplo approach as you both recommend though as an Immortal game as if there was ever a map to learn how to play Civ4, this one is it. This map is staying on my hard-drive.