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APOCALYPSE EDITION: Sons of Monarchy XII: Pacal of Maya

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Giant Wolfman, Dec 21, 2012.

  1. Robert FIN

    Robert FIN Monty n' Roll

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Finland
    @shulgi
    Spoiler :
    Thanks for saving my day again shulgi:)
    Probably I should build more sttlers and workers in early game. I beware making too much settlers bc of I fear the maintenance costs too much.. I've mentioned that you guys don't have as good tech slider than I have..and still I'm really noob player. So I think that I should not fear economy crash too much.. And workers... I have to train them more.. 1/city sounds good! I have to whip some cities in future games and don't mind thoughts like "Its too expansive" or "Only noobs like Justinian use slavery".
    Ok so more cottages, right?
    Yes, I wanted to make frenchmans and zulus my friends. That was right thing to do bc of they are strong AIs in my game!:)
    Thanks! I think that my war was good idea! And yes I'm seeking for some GPP to transform my shrines to money!!

    Thanks again!
     
  2. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    3,663
    More discussion of Robert FIN's game....

    Spoiler :

    Stop being afraid. Estimate how much commerce you need, estimate how much you've got, if it's not enough, address it. Being afraid is a symptom of letting the game happen to you, when you should be controlling the game.

    Here, you almost don't even need to think about it - you look at the starting position, see gems and gold. Doing the calculation anyway is probably a good habit, but it's so obviously plenty at most difficulty levels that it's hardly worth the bother of calculating.

    BTW - trading the gems for the gold, when you could have had both in the capital, was a choice that I don't understand. Your comment said that you were going to move 1S, but you don't seem to have noticed that you actually moved SE, delaying the gems.

    I'm not sure I understand the motivation behind your other city placements - why is Chichen Itza land locked? Why is Chicken Pizza land locked? Why is Uxmal claiming crap land?

    You're either being unnecessarily clever, or you've got an opportunity to improve your early game play by studying the basic principals of city placement.
     
  3. Giant Wolfman

    Giant Wolfman Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2010
    Messages:
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    Location:
    WA
    @Robert

    Spoiler :
    Another thing to point out is you talk about your slider being high. The slider can be a decent gauge of how your economy is doing, but ultimately you shouldn't let it dictate your settling patterns. My point is that you can be running a slider at 90% for 90 beakers in a smallish empire, or at 50% percent for 90 beakers in an empire twice as large. But that larger empire is probably going to have more hammers and production, which will strengthen your position.

    Don't let the slider dictate your expansion plans. It should be considered, but there's nothing wrong with lowering the slider down in order to grab land that will eventually pay off.

    I'd also echo VoU's comments about city sites.
     
  4. Robert FIN

    Robert FIN Monty n' Roll

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    Finland
    Thanks for comments! I quess that my problem is that I build too few settlers and workers in early game..
    Spoiler :
    Yeah...Seems like city placement is next think to learn! But Uxmal is in uber-crappy land because I wanted the iron...Mongolian idiots were just too fast:lol:
    Ok I shall drop my tech slider a bit in my next game..:lol:
     
  5. Robert FIN

    Robert FIN Monty n' Roll

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    Finland
    I was posting with my phone and I destroyed my post. It was really long story of my day of APOCALYPSE. Shortly it was:
    Spoiler :
    Alex vassalized Genghis. Shaka stabbed my back.
    :cry:Fo..forgive me Shulgi!:cry: I'll never thrust him anymore! Should I keep playing on noble?
     
  6. FlyingSwan

    FlyingSwan King

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2009
    Messages:
    620
    View attachment SOM XII - Pacalmac BC-1080 oracle CService.CivBeyondSwordSave
    View attachment SOM XII - Pacalmac AD-0001.CivBeyondSwordSave

    Spoiler :
    1 tactic which hasnt been discussed yet is going early ALPHA.I moved 1S for the settle then went AGR,HUNT,AH,Writ,Alpha and then traded for all the first tier techs.I got ALHPA about turn 50 then i bribed everyone into war with each other as soon as i got Maths(i managed to bribe a couple of civs even wthout Maths!)

    Secret is not to trade Alpha so the enemy cant bribe other civs onto you.With everyone at war their tech rate gets even lower and allowed me to oracle Civil service at turn 73.At 1ad some civs have made peace so now its time to bribe them into wars again.
     
  7. FlyingSwan

    FlyingSwan King

    Joined:
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    View attachment SOM XII - Pacalmac AD-1000 1turn from LIB.CivBeyondSwordSave

    Spoiler :
    1000AD and 1 turn from LIB,theres no rush to take it tho as other civs are so far behind.Have 3 great people(and 1 nxt turn too)so i could spring 2 more golden ages after this one finishes and maybe take Democracy as the free tech,or even electricity if the great people gods smile.

    I built parthenon,great library and MoM so i could keep GAs going even longer.Popped a great engineer and built apostolic palace with him in christianity(which i founded)the i switched back to hinduism to keep neibours happy

    Have not been in a single war yet by bribing everyone else into fights.

    guess the only question is the quickest way to win from this point.Cavalry,or wait for tanks...
     
  8. shulgi

    shulgi Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
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    202
    @FlyingSwan

    What surprised me the most is that the negative diplo for bribes is outweighed by bonuses for sharing wars, I assumed you'd be in the negative with most everyone. Did you just bribe anyone whenever you could whenever wars died down? This really breaks up the low peace weight love fest that is the problem at the start. I might have to give this another try.
     
  9. FlyingSwan

    FlyingSwan King

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    View attachment SOM XII - Pacalmac AD-1848 victory.CivBeyondSwordSave
     

    Attached Files:

  10. pepe26

    pepe26 Lacrosse Enthusiast

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    this gam is just about surviving eary and establishing a tech lead (the latter should be a cakewalk with THIS start and THIS opposition) after that its bribing 101
     
  11. pepe26

    pepe26 Lacrosse Enthusiast

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    Berlin
    my attempt on deity up until 1140AD

    won lib, picked MT, going for communism now, if a can even facism... im already massing up cuirs, which is too early im afraid

    build TGL, sistine (forgot to cancel for fail gold) and taj, was first to music (naturally with this opposition)

    havent whipped a thing yet because its not really feasible on this map

    never went to war bt negotiate a crap ton of trade embargoes and wars

    Spoiler :












    oh by the way, i opened up with oracle and picked feudalism as some of you guys suggested... due to my RNG luck and some witty bribing, it was pretty useless tho
     
  12. Nicol.Bolas

    Nicol.Bolas Prince

    Joined:
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    575
    Location:
    Bohemia
    general advice

    Hi I am just starting to play monarch.
    One way I am still wondering about is the very early build order

    On what pop size to build first worker?
    On what pop size to build first settler?
    When to build granary?

    I would welcome advice for this game instance with reasoning.

    This is what I would do:
    warrior-warrior-settler-warrior-worker-granary
    is that correct at all?

    or do you guys open with worker?
     
  13. pepe26

    pepe26 Lacrosse Enthusiast

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    usually you start with a worker then build warriors and on the happy cap you start on a settler... sometimes on higher difficulties when you really boxed in you build the settler earlier but you dont need to worry about that for now because the AI expands very slowly on monarch
     
  14. Nicol.Bolas

    Nicol.Bolas Prince

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    worker as the very first build when my city is only 1 pop?

    i am just checking if I am understanding you right
     
  15. pepe26

    pepe26 Lacrosse Enthusiast

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    you are understanding me correctly... it seems counterintuitive at first but the early worker makes up for its cost very quicky
     
  16. Nicol.Bolas

    Nicol.Bolas Prince

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    Bohemia
    hello,
    so I for the first time tried to open with a worker as suggested and it made sense on this start.
    however my exploration really suffered, I also lost a warrior :-/.

    anyways I played the first 40 turns, and here is the current situation:
    (until 2400 BC):
    Spoiler :

    first my dotmaps:
    Spoiler :




    about city placement:
    the next 4 most priority cities are mapped I plan to build these asap:
    i) wheat/pig city (to close Shaka?) (also it's on hill for a purpose - but sometimes AI doesn't fall for this and walks straight by)
    ii) dye city
    iii) wine city - this one I am not amazed about.
    there is place for filler cities W and S of capital, but I will leave those for later.
    depends on what i explore next - my view is very hampered - I opened with the worker and my warrior was lost.
    my logs:
    Spoiler :

    Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
    ------------------------------------------------
    Turn 0/500 (4000 BC) [02-Jan-2013 23:52:10]
    Research begun: Agriculture (90 Turns)

    Turn 1/500 (3960 BC) [02-Jan-2013 23:52:21]
    Note settle 1S
    Mutal founded

    Turn 5/500 (3800 BC) [02-Jan-2013 23:54:32]
    Player contact made: Genghis Khan of Mongolia

    Turn 7/500 (3720 BC) [02-Jan-2013 23:55:08]
    Buddhism founded in a distant land

    Turn 9/500 (3640 BC) [02-Jan-2013 23:55:38]
    Tech research finished: Agriculture

    Turn 10/500 (3600 BC) [02-Jan-2013 23:55:43]
    Research begun: Animal Husbandry (11 Turns)

    Turn 13/500 (3480 BC) [02-Jan-2013 23:56:32]
    Player contact made: Shaka of Zululand

    Turn 15/500 (3400 BC) [02-Jan-2013 23:58:17]
    Mutal finishes: Worker
    Hinduism founded in a distant land

    Turn 19/500 (3240 BC) [03-Jan-2013 00:01:35]
    Tech research finished: Animal Husbandry

    Turn 20/500 (3200 BC) [03-Jan-2013 00:01:50]
    Research begun: The Wheel (7 Turns)

    Turn 21/500 (3160 BC) [03-Jan-2013 00:02:42]
    A Farm was built near Mutal

    Turn 24/500 (3040 BC) [03-Jan-2013 00:03:08]
    Mutal finishes: Warrior

    Turn 25/500 (3000 BC) [03-Jan-2013 00:03:16]
    A Pasture was built near Mutal

    Turn 27/500 (2920 BC) [03-Jan-2013 00:03:37]
    Tech research finished: The Wheel

    Turn 28/500 (2880 BC) [03-Jan-2013 00:03:49]
    Research begun: Pottery (8 Turns)

    Turn 30/500 (2800 BC) [03-Jan-2013 00:04:20]
    A Mine was built near Mutal

    Turn 34/500 (2640 BC) [03-Jan-2013 00:05:18]
    Mutal finishes: Settler

    Turn 35/500 (2600 BC) [03-Jan-2013 00:05:33]
    Tech research finished: Pottery

    Turn 36/500 (2560 BC) [03-Jan-2013 00:05:54]
    Research begun: Bronze Working (12 Turns)
    A Mine was built near Mutal

    Turn 38/500 (2480 BC) [03-Jan-2013 00:07:06]
    Lakamha founded

    the plan:
    to settle 6 cities, tech construction and kill Shaka
    the capital is epic, but otherwise the land doesn't seem so good.
    tech hunting next for Holkans to get some units around

    Apart from anything you would also advise me, I have specific questions:
    - build order in Lakamha (granary/monument/warrior/settler?)
    - How to make most of my epic capital? (I already read library/academy - will do that - probably Burecracy this game and hammer economy?)
    But I usually do very well in midgame, but my concerns are what to do in the opening 100 turns before my SoD is ready.
    - I am not much into rushes (HA or chairots), since it's risky and I don't reload - but is this such a situation? but when I see elephants
    and all the commerce I have, I would rather play it safe and defend with holkans, if I can get 5-6 good productive cities
    - to what extent does building garrison units under monarchy pay off? - I am kinda unsure of this in my games, since I always end up with 1 unit only, since i need all the others on front which seems a more beneficial use (+ whipping unhappyness away) - but I am unsure of the net analysis of this - in this perfect capital it would seem mak it byrocratic and huge

     
  17. FlyingSwan

    FlyingSwan King

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    @nicol.
    Spoiler :
    1NW for the dye city,FIN makes that a 7 commerce tile when calender comes in.
     
  18. Nicol.Bolas

    Nicol.Bolas Prince

    Joined:
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    575
    Location:
    Bohemia
    4000BC-2400BC


    1000AD:
    Spoiler :

    2040BC Shaka takes the pigs/wheat position, which I kinda half expected, so I risked an unprotected settler and did this, which proved to be a good move and city:
    1800BC: Chitzen Itza
    1720BC: Uxmal
    975BC: Mayapan


    After this I decided to mass elepults and not find any new cities (stone/fish) city and marble city.
    I was amassing elepults, when we became friends with Napoleon and ?Shaka? thorough religion and Genhis declared on me.

    Genhis took Maypan, since my troops were in Chitzen Itza, but this is what happened to him eventually:
    Spoiler :






    I immediately had Shaka and Napoleon join in, although for good techs.
    During this was Shaka + Napoleon declared on rest of the map, but I didn't join.

    I would call this game also fun with construction, since not only the elepults are useful, but unique building as well.

    These are the decisions I must make now, which i feel can still affect the game outcome:

    1) declare on Shaka (who is a friend?) or Alex? (who is weak and has no friends and the attack force is near him.)
    2) should I keep building workshops or forget the whole hammer economy concept?
    3) I will settle marble now, civs just got calendar now, should I try for Mausoleum? or GLB? or both? Napoleon already has aesthetics. - i kinda delayed calendar and GrL. but on the other hand, i managed to survive in one of my first monarch games in a very apocalyptic environment.

    log:
    Spoiler :

    Turn 42/500 (2320 BC Bronze Working
    Turn 45/500 (2200 BC Hunting
    Turn 51/500 (1960 BC) Writing
    Turn 65/500 (1400 BC) Mathematics
    Turn 68/500 (1280 BC) Masonry
    Turn 82/500 (825 BC) Construction
    Turn 91/500 (600 BC) Horseback Riding
    Turn 104/500 (275 BC) Currency
    Turn 111/500 (100 BC) Alphabet
    Turn 114/500 (25 BC) [ Iron Working
    Turn 123/500 (200 AD) Metal Casting
    Turn 123/500 (200 AD) [03-Jan-2013 22:37:57]
    Tech traded to Napoleon (France): Currency
    Tech traded to Napoleon (France): Horseback Riding
    Napoleon (France) declares war on Genghis Khan (Mongolia)
    Tech traded to Napoleon (France): Construction
    Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Meditation
    Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Fishing
    Tech traded to Shaka (Zululand): Horseback Riding
    Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Archery
    Tech traded to Alexander (Greece): Currency
    Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Polytheism
    Turn 132/500 (425 AD) Machinery
    Tech traded to Shaka (Zululand): Polytheism
    Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Priesthood
    Tech traded to Alexander (Greece): Metal Casting
    Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Monarchy
    Turn 145/500 (700 AD) Engineering
    Tech traded to Napoleon (France): Engineering
    Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Monotheism
    Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Feudalism
    Turn 157/500 (940 AD) Code of Laws
    Turn 158/500 (960 AD) Sailing
    Tech traded to Shaka (Zululand): Code of Laws
    Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Calendar

    1st GG: boost in mayapan
    2nd GG: Scaut supermedic
    3rd?
    1st GS: academy
    2nd GM: Golden age just as war broke out
    2nd GM: waiting for another GA?

    Turn 41/500 (2360 BC Mutal finishes: Warrior
    Turn 45/500 (2200 BC Lakamha finishes: Warrior
    Turn 46/500 (2160 BC Mutal finishes: Granary
    Turn 50/500 (2000 BC) Mutal finishes: Settler
    Turn 53/500 (1880 BC) Lakamha finishes: Settler
    Turn 54/500 (1840 BC) Mutal finishes: Holkan
    Turn 55/500 (1800 BC) Lakamha finishes: Granary
    Turn 59/500 (1640 BC) Mutal finishes: Holkan
    Turn 60/500 (1600 BC) Lakamha finishes: Monument
    Turn 63/500 (1480 BC) Mutal finishes: Holkan
    Turn 64/500 (1440 BC) Chichen Itza finishes: Monument
    Turn 65/500 (1400 BC) Lakamha finishes: Holkan
    Turn 67/500 (1320 BC) Mutal finishes: Library
    Turn 68/500 (1280 BC) Chichen Itza finishes: Granary
    Turn 69/500 (1240 BC) Lakamha finishes: Worker
    Turn 70/500 (1200 BC) Uxmal finishes: Granary
    Turn 71/500 (1160 BC) Mutal finishes: Barracks
    Turn 73/500 (1080 BC) Mutal finishes: Settler
    Turn 73/500 (1080 BC) Uxmal finishes: Monument
    Turn 76/500 (975 BC) Mutal finishes: Holkan
    Turn 79/500 (900 BC) Lakamha finishes: Barracks
    Turn 80/500 (875 BC) Mutal finishes: Worker
    Turn 81/500 (850 BC) Lakamha finishes: Worker
    Turn 82/500 (825 BC) Chichen Itza finishes: Walls
    Turn 83/500 (800 BC) Lakamha finishes: Axeman
    Turn 84/500 (775 BC) Mutal finishes: Axeman
    Turn 85/500 (750 BC) Uxmal finishes: Barracks
    Turn 88/500 (675 BC) Chichen Itza finishes: Barracks
    Turn 90/500 (625 BC) Mutal finishes: Ball Court
    Turn 92/500 (575 BC) Lakamha finishes: Catapult
    Turn 92/500 (575 BC) Mayapan finishes: Monument
    Turn 94/500 (525 BC) Mutal finishes: Catapult
    Turn 94/500 (525 BC) Uxmal finishes: Axeman
    Turn 96/500 (475 BC) Mayapan finishes: Granary
    Turn 97/500 (450 BC) Lakamha finishes: Catapult
    Turn 99/500 (400 BC) Mutal finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 99/500 (400 BC) Uxmal finishes: Stable
    Turn 100/500 (375 BC) Chichen Itza finishes: Library
    Turn 102/500 (325 BC) Lakamha finishes: Stable
    Turn 105/500 (250 BC) Mutal finishes: Stable
    Turn 106/500 (225 BC) Uxmal finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 107/500 (200 BC) Lakamha finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 108/500 (175 BC) Chichen Itza finishes: Stable
    Turn 108/500 (175 BC) Mayapan finishes: Barracks
    Turn 110/500 (125 BC) Mutal finishes: Academy
    Turn 110/500 (125 BC) Uxmal finishes: Axeman
    Turn 110/500 (125 BC) Mayapan finishes: Worker
    Turn 111/500 (100 BC) Lakamha finishes: Ball Court
    Turn 112/500 (75 BC) [ Chichen Itza finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 113/500 (50 BC) [ Lakamha finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 113/500 (50 BC) [ Mayapan finishes: Catapult
    Turn 116/500 (25 AD) [ Lakamha finishes: Axeman
    Turn 117/500 (50 AD) [ Uxmal finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 117/500 (50 AD) [ Mayapan finishes: Catapult
    Turn 118/500 (75 AD) [ Mutal finishes: Market
    Turn 120/500 (125 AD) Chichen Itza finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 121/500 (150 AD) Lakamha finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 121/500 (150 AD) Mayapan finishes: Catapult
    Turn 122/500 (175 AD) Mutal finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 122/500 (175 AD) Mayapan finishes: Walls
    Turn 123/500 (200 AD) Uxmal finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 126/500 (275 AD) Mutal finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 127/500 (300 AD) Lakamha finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 127/500 (300 AD) Chichen Itza finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 128/500 (325 AD) Mayapan finishes: Granary
    Turn 130/500 (375 AD) Uxmal finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 131/500 (400 AD) Mutal finishes: Catapult
    Turn 131/500 (400 AD) Lakamha finishes: Forge
    Turn 131/500 (400 AD) Chichen Itza finishes: Forge
    Turn 131/500 (400 AD) Mayapan finishes: Monument
    Turn 134/500 (475 AD) Lakamha finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 135/500 (500 AD) Chichen Itza finishes: Catapult
    Turn 135/500 (500 AD) Uxmal finishes: Forge
    Turn 137/500 (540 AD) Mutal finishes: Forge
    Turn 137/500 (540 AD) Lakamha finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 138/500 (560 AD) Uxmal finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 140/500 (600 AD) Mutal finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 140/500 (600 AD) Lakamha finishes: Catapult
    Turn 140/500 (600 AD) Chichen Itza finishes: Catapult
    Turn 141/500 (620 AD) Lakamha finishes: Catapult
    Turn 141/500 (620 AD) Mayapan finishes: Catapult
    Turn 143/500 (660 AD) Lakamha finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 143/500 (660 AD) Uxmal finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 144/500 (680 AD) Mutal finishes: Axeman
    Turn 146/500 (720 AD) Lakamha finishes: Catapult
    Turn 146/500 (720 AD) Mayapan finishes: Axeman
    Turn 147/500 (740 AD) Chichen Itza finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 148/500 (760 AD) Mutal finishes: Catapult
    Turn 148/500 (760 AD) Uxmal finishes: Catapult
    Turn 148/500 (760 AD) Ning-hsia finishes: Monument
    Turn 149/500 (780 AD) Lakamha finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 151/500 (820 AD) Mayapan finishes: Barracks
    Turn 152/500 (840 AD) Mutal finishes: Catapult
    Turn 152/500 (840 AD) Uxmal finishes: Worker
    Turn 153/500 (860 AD) Lakamha finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 153/500 (860 AD) Mayapan finishes: Scout
    Turn 154/500 (880 AD) Chichen Itza finishes: Castle
    Turn 154/500 (880 AD) Ning-hsia finishes: Granary
    Turn 155/500 (900 AD) Mayapan finishes: Longbowman
    Turn 157/500 (940 AD) Uxmal finishes: War Elephant
    Turn 158/500 (960 AD) Lakamha finishes: Aqueduct
    Turn 158/500 (960 AD) Karakorum finishes: Monument
    Turn 159/500 (980 AD) Chichen Itza finishes: Ball Court

    total:
    Academy 1
    Aqueduct 1
    Axeman 7
    Ball Court 3
    Barracks 6
    Castle 1
    Catapult 16
    Forge 4
    Granary 7
    Holkan 5
    Library 2
    Longbowman 1
    Market 1
    Monument 7
    Scout 1
    Settler 4
    Stable 4
    Walls 2
    War Elephant 24
    Warrior 4
    Worker 6



    @FlyingSwan
    Spoiler :

    Thanks for the tip. I wanted the city to have ivory, but that's not as good.
    I tend to underestimate calendar in my games, which is probably a mistake in this case.
     
  19. Nicol.Bolas

    Nicol.Bolas Prince

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Bohemia
    @shulgi
    Spoiler :

    you don't have any units when Shaka comes?
    is that because K-mod? (I heard the mod makes early cities almost unconquerable without siege ie. for the AI) - so you relied on that?
     
  20. Nicol.Bolas

    Nicol.Bolas Prince

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    575
    Location:
    Bohemia
    @Prodeo

    Spoiler :

    how did you manage not to get declared upon, with so little units on immortal? or is there a stack somewhere?
    seems to me most civs would declare on you the moment your strength is below 0,7 and they get their 3 attack units

     

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