Apocalypto
- Thread starter Cam_H
- Start date
Norvin_Green
Emperor
I'm ok with switching 2 cities to wealth in order to get Banking but when I was looking at the save last night I couldn't get it down to 1 turn even if I built wealth in a 3rd city.
just a heads up that I am a horrible whipper . . . so keep the laughter to a minimum please! 
just a heads up that I am a horrible whipper . . . so keep the laughter to a minimum please! 
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Norv - That's cause building Wealth does not increase the research. we have enough gold. Raise the slider to 100% and build RESEARCH in Calakmul.
Norvin_Green
Emperor
Screenshots of Advisors and the like.
@lymond -
Thanks, I was reading your original post and realized that you said research not wealth.
Spoiler :
@lymond -
Thanks, I was reading your original post and realized that you said research not wealth.
Norvin_Green
Emperor
1250 a.d. Once the difference between wealth and research registers in my thick head (with an assist to lymond) research is set to Banking (1 turn). Make deals below with Liz and Izzy.
1260 a.d. Banking arrives. Mutal starts a bank. I didn’t keep track of whips. I just did it a lot. I figured I’d rather overwhip than underwhip.
1290 a.d. This request from madman Monty is dismissed.
1300 a.d. Make use of an extra cow
1310 a.d. HC asks for assistance with his war effort. Give us a minute and we’ll help . . . ourselves to your cities that is.
We finish RP and head for Rifling
1340 a.d. Mayan troops taste battle and are victorious capturing both Vitcos and Vilcas.
1350 a.d. Take Vilcabamba off of HC’s hands and out from under Monty’s nose
Joao begs us for Astronomy
Overall I think the set went well. Let me know how I did with the whip.
1260 a.d. Banking arrives. Mutal starts a bank. I didn’t keep track of whips. I just did it a lot. I figured I’d rather overwhip than underwhip.
1290 a.d. This request from madman Monty is dismissed.
1300 a.d. Make use of an extra cow
1310 a.d. HC asks for assistance with his war effort. Give us a minute and we’ll help . . . ourselves to your cities that is.
We finish RP and head for Rifling
1340 a.d. Mayan troops taste battle and are victorious capturing both Vitcos and Vilcas.
Spoiler :
1350 a.d. Take Vilcabamba off of HC’s hands and out from under Monty’s nose
Joao begs us for Astronomy
Overall I think the set went well. Let me know how I did with the whip.
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Looks good to me, Norv. I like how you took out the two V cities in 1 turn followed by 3rd V cities.
(Hard to say about the whippage after the fact. The important thing is that you got out enough units to successfully and quickly take 3 Incan cities. Obviously if the option is available you can whip anything, so that is not the issue. You may not know how to manage the overflow hammers - not sure. However, I worry less about OF hammers when whipping to gather forces quickly. Just try not to whip things on the first turn of a build unless absolute emergency)
Obviously we have some healing to do. Too bad we didn't acquire a GG before the first wave. I say we heal and muster troops to head NW. We can muster a small force to take out Andahauyas a bit later and I think we should just raze that city - it is crap.
I'd build culture in all the new cities, but check once it comes out of revolt if a quick whip of a building or unit is viable (lots of pop, starving, lots of unhappy)
The tech pace overseas is concerning, especially in 10 turns...Wow! Obviously they are all trading with one another but Lizzy is really surprising. Her land ain't all that great either. Still, once we take over the continent we can catch up very easily. It will just make overseas war difficult. Space would be a cakewalk though.
Next Person:
-Finish Rifling this turn
- Keep an eye on Calakmul. Capac has a galley and a knight in that island and could surprise us. Not sure why we have a galley to the north of that island instead of in port. However, with Calakmul alone we could put together 2 galleys and 3 or 4 Curs to take that island. (Would resettling on the pigs be better? hmmm)
- Obviously, we will have Cavalry by next turn, so we can run binary for a couple of turns to accumulate gold to upgrade existing Curs. I would not upgrade them until after they heal though.
(Hard to say about the whippage after the fact. The important thing is that you got out enough units to successfully and quickly take 3 Incan cities. Obviously if the option is available you can whip anything, so that is not the issue. You may not know how to manage the overflow hammers - not sure. However, I worry less about OF hammers when whipping to gather forces quickly. Just try not to whip things on the first turn of a build unless absolute emergency)
Obviously we have some healing to do. Too bad we didn't acquire a GG before the first wave. I say we heal and muster troops to head NW. We can muster a small force to take out Andahauyas a bit later and I think we should just raze that city - it is crap.
I'd build culture in all the new cities, but check once it comes out of revolt if a quick whip of a building or unit is viable (lots of pop, starving, lots of unhappy)
The tech pace overseas is concerning, especially in 10 turns...Wow! Obviously they are all trading with one another but Lizzy is really surprising. Her land ain't all that great either. Still, once we take over the continent we can catch up very easily. It will just make overseas war difficult. Space would be a cakewalk though.
Next Person:
-Finish Rifling this turn
- Keep an eye on Calakmul. Capac has a galley and a knight in that island and could surprise us. Not sure why we have a galley to the north of that island instead of in port. However, with Calakmul alone we could put together 2 galleys and 3 or 4 Curs to take that island. (Would resettling on the pigs be better? hmmm)
- Obviously, we will have Cavalry by next turn, so we can run binary for a couple of turns to accumulate gold to upgrade existing Curs. I would not upgrade them until after they heal though.
Norvin_Green
Emperor
Thanks for the feedback. A general question - in a solo game if I was going space I would try to capitulate HC and SB while they could still help me tech. I'd get rid of Monty just because he's Monty. Would it be better to have all their land instead and tech everything myself?
There is a chariot in Vilcas that I was going to throw a GG on to make a medic if we would have gotten one.
We have a few axes in Xukpi and 2 in E Shangian plus a few Holkans that could be used with a few cuirs to take out Anda***. Or would it be better to use them as garrison as we take more cities?
There is a chariot in Vilcas that I was going to throw a GG on to make a medic if we would have gotten one.
We have a few axes in Xukpi and 2 in E Shangian plus a few Holkans that could be used with a few cuirs to take out Anda***. Or would it be better to use them as garrison as we take more cities?
vranasm
Deity
i think you need some critical amount of good cities... good target is around 25 cities, which could bring you ~3k bpt at it's peak outside GA (around 4.5-5k in GA)
vassals at highest levels can of course help with teching thanks to the bonuses they get, but I expect bunch of the tech power will be still up to you and it is very tough to trade for space ship techs anyway.
you compete with budh lovefest and it will be problematic..not sure if you will be able to avoid the other continent... I would really think about Nukes as last emergency when the enemy launches first or gets too close to culture.
I don't use nukes much myself, but in the mentioned LHC game they really saved me since i could nuke out sury's SoD on my continent near capital ;-).
based on the SS I think you should wipe Monty out (always feels great) and cap the norther most and take most of HC.
should give you the number of cities...
vassals at highest levels can of course help with teching thanks to the bonuses they get, but I expect bunch of the tech power will be still up to you and it is very tough to trade for space ship techs anyway.
you compete with budh lovefest and it will be problematic..not sure if you will be able to avoid the other continent... I would really think about Nukes as last emergency when the enemy launches first or gets too close to culture.
I don't use nukes much myself, but in the mentioned LHC game they really saved me since i could nuke out sury's SoD on my continent near capital ;-).
based on the SS I think you should wipe Monty out (always feels great) and cap the norther most and take most of HC.
should give you the number of cities...
vranasm
Deity
checked a bit the save...
I think getting Huamanga and the Andahuy... are good target for the amount of cities from HC and then cap him (hopefully he will fall enough and you grow enough).
then take whole montyland and take some city from SB and cap him.
That should bring you to 25 cities easily.
As I see the land around you could go with US/FS/Eman space ship variant. at some points in AI land there will be need to spread irrigation above some of the lovely plains cottages.
open the borders with Joao he's in FM now.
the Isabella will be problem from what i see... they have bunch of techs on you.
Lizzie is probably going the physics now.
I would try to get from HC the constitution as tribute for capitulation or trade for it once vassal, should bring you closer to demo.
Not sure with state property x free market... corps don't look hot here...doesn't look like many resources.
otoh you won't probably have that many workshops/mills for SP (since a lot of the land is already covered by cottages and you're financial after all) and you should have plenty of intercontinental TR's for FM to be competitive.
As for techs I find usually chemistry->SP->factory more attractive then SM->Bio, but given the cottages don't overlook demo for emancipation to soonish switch into US.
based on statistics you have 9 towns, 9 villages and couple of hamlets and the numbers will increase in next 20 turns... I think you look at ~40-50 potential towns here after all the captures...
Landing communism and kremlin is nice for US setup though too... so very tough to decide...
I think getting Huamanga and the Andahuy... are good target for the amount of cities from HC and then cap him (hopefully he will fall enough and you grow enough).
then take whole montyland and take some city from SB and cap him.
That should bring you to 25 cities easily.
As I see the land around you could go with US/FS/Eman space ship variant. at some points in AI land there will be need to spread irrigation above some of the lovely plains cottages.
open the borders with Joao he's in FM now.
the Isabella will be problem from what i see... they have bunch of techs on you.
Lizzie is probably going the physics now.
I would try to get from HC the constitution as tribute for capitulation or trade for it once vassal, should bring you closer to demo.
Not sure with state property x free market... corps don't look hot here...doesn't look like many resources.
otoh you won't probably have that many workshops/mills for SP (since a lot of the land is already covered by cottages and you're financial after all) and you should have plenty of intercontinental TR's for FM to be competitive.
As for techs I find usually chemistry->SP->factory more attractive then SM->Bio, but given the cottages don't overlook demo for emancipation to soonish switch into US.
based on statistics you have 9 towns, 9 villages and couple of hamlets and the numbers will increase in next 20 turns... I think you look at ~40-50 potential towns here after all the captures...
Landing communism and kremlin is nice for US setup though too... so very tough to decide...
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V addressed your question as well and I pretty much agree with him. Basically it depends on who the leader is and their land situation/cities, that is, how good is their land and are the using it correctly. Another issue is the culture whores that put constant pressure on the cities you did take.
Some times I will take a few cities to cap and then gift them back and basically try to keep that AI as strong as possible so that add value.
Otherwise, the key point for me is can I make better use of that land. AI is notoriously terrible at settling and improving their land.
In this situation, Capac is not a bad vassal if you leave him enough cities. In that case we might take all his cities south of Monty and leave him the rest. He might add value as a techer still. On the other hand, we need to look at what wonders he has and how good are his cities. Initially, my thinking is we take him out and use those cities, but I'm open to capping.
Monty and SB are worthless as vassals and terrible techers. SB can be okay sometimes but his land looks so-so and he is small. I'd rather take both of them out and make as good a use of their land as possible.
lymond <<< On Deck
nocho
Sengir
Cam
Norvin_Green
Mikehendi <<< Up
lymond - we've not heard from Mike for a little while, so maybe prepare yourself for the possibility of undertaking next turnset. Otherwise - Mike - please advise that you're willing and able.
Nice turnset Norvin - I was expecting the population to be next to nothing, so it's good work to get so many units in the field while still we've got some further whip opportunity ahead of us!
It seems like we're all pretty much largely in agreement (including 'the lurker'!
). I'm a bit unsure of the best pathway re. Andahuaylas, in that if we raze it, some AI could possibly drop a settling party on the same spot. I agree though that a lake and four flat jungle tiles isn't much to write home about. I'd lean to letting Huayna Capac keep Ica, but it's a good catch, lymond, re. his units in that city right now.
Whether we kill of or cap' Sitting Bull I guess is one that doesn't need to be decided now, but at this point I'm a bit of the view that we should kill him off completely given that he's notoriously unpopular (drag our reputation down) and will be unable to contribute anything to us.
Joao is the leading candidate for a Cultural win at the moment - two of his 'big three' are coastal.
Thoughts on Free Religion?
nocho
Sengir
Cam
Norvin_Green
Mikehendi <<< Up
lymond - we've not heard from Mike for a little while, so maybe prepare yourself for the possibility of undertaking next turnset. Otherwise - Mike - please advise that you're willing and able.
Nice turnset Norvin - I was expecting the population to be next to nothing, so it's good work to get so many units in the field while still we've got some further whip opportunity ahead of us!
It seems like we're all pretty much largely in agreement (including 'the lurker'!
). I'm a bit unsure of the best pathway re. Andahuaylas, in that if we raze it, some AI could possibly drop a settling party on the same spot. I agree though that a lake and four flat jungle tiles isn't much to write home about. I'd lean to letting Huayna Capac keep Ica, but it's a good catch, lymond, re. his units in that city right now.Whether we kill of or cap' Sitting Bull I guess is one that doesn't need to be decided now, but at this point I'm a bit of the view that we should kill him off completely given that he's notoriously unpopular (drag our reputation down) and will be unable to contribute anything to us.
Joao is the leading candidate for a Cultural win at the moment - two of his 'big three' are coastal.
Thoughts on Free Religion?
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Fun times! Monty daggers on the first turn..ha! What a silly and stupid asshat he is 
To top it off he only sends a couple of Knights and a cat or treb which I kindly send to the Aztec heaven.
West Maya (note Incan Island city is no more...settler on the way)
New Northern Maya
Tech
Summary:
I probably spent the longest time on the first turn by far, although I usually spend quite a bit of time each turn at this point on microing and stuff. Just on he first turn I reworked quite a few resource deals and acquire new resources. I also trade around some techs and maps.
Tech screen looks a bit daunting at this point, especially Liz and her Portuguese friend. However at the midway point we were practically at tech parity with them, although liz had sci meth which opens techs we can't quite see and that she obviously had. Then she's trading around. I don't think we are in bad shape at all. Once we get all this land we can catch up fast with building wealth/research. We are in a power position.
Anyhoo, as mentioned, Monty DOW'd on the first turn. Surprised the heck out of me, but nothing we can't handle. He did not send a stack per se, but would send suicide Knights - one or 2 at a time which I simply dispatched with our Calvary. I also encountered some Aztec units as I moved on the Incan cities since he obviously and stupidly at war with us both. I'd take care of the city and then kill his units.
I upgrade a few Curs to Cav on the first few turns as they healed and moved on Andahualyas in actually only a couple of turns as it was easy. I razed it. (Actually we might consider resettled on the oil as that spot is not too bad. Regardless our culture will engulf the area in 5 turns)
Although I had enough initial healthy curs - just a few - to upgrade initially to easily defend against the Aztecs and take that eastern Incan city, it still regard a few more turns to a) heal up b) amass more troops for a two pronged attack.
I was actually very lucky and successful on the first few cities I took. Only the last turn taking Machu Pichu did a lose a few Cav. The river crossing didn't help much. Getting SoZ is definitely a good thing.
I'm really all for just taking these guys out. Capac only has 3 more cities and Monty is way behind. We can mass up Cavs pretty quickly. I want Capac's shinies!
Traded Astro for Econ/Rifling/a bit of gold on first turn. Got more gold back in another tech trade for Constitution. Plus, a good chunk of gold from maps and traded some old stuff to Bull a couple of times. Teched Chem while amassing a bit of gold for a couple of turns to upgrade Curs. Finished Chem, Sci Meth and started BIO.
Happiness is going to be an issue soon as AIs will switch to Emanc now. I had an issue with Mutal throughout and had to raise the culture slider a tad at times. With Soz on our side and a jail almost done in Mutal, this should help. I also picked up Fur and Gems along the way.
We popped a GS. He's on the hill west of Laka.
We popped 2 GGs. I attached one to the chariot we had ready and the other is moving up to join the Incan force. I'd just make another medic and attach him to the medic 1 Cav we have up there.
Iz is still in fist mode so we need to keep an eye on her. Joao broke away from her during the TS.
To top it off he only sends a couple of Knights and a cat or treb which I kindly send to the Aztec heaven.West Maya (note Incan Island city is no more...settler on the way)
Spoiler :
New Northern Maya
Spoiler :
Tech
Spoiler :
Summary:
I probably spent the longest time on the first turn by far, although I usually spend quite a bit of time each turn at this point on microing and stuff. Just on he first turn I reworked quite a few resource deals and acquire new resources. I also trade around some techs and maps.
Tech screen looks a bit daunting at this point, especially Liz and her Portuguese friend. However at the midway point we were practically at tech parity with them, although liz had sci meth which opens techs we can't quite see and that she obviously had. Then she's trading around. I don't think we are in bad shape at all. Once we get all this land we can catch up fast with building wealth/research. We are in a power position.
Anyhoo, as mentioned, Monty DOW'd on the first turn. Surprised the heck out of me, but nothing we can't handle. He did not send a stack per se, but would send suicide Knights - one or 2 at a time which I simply dispatched with our Calvary. I also encountered some Aztec units as I moved on the Incan cities since he obviously and stupidly at war with us both. I'd take care of the city and then kill his units.
I upgrade a few Curs to Cav on the first few turns as they healed and moved on Andahualyas in actually only a couple of turns as it was easy. I razed it. (Actually we might consider resettled on the oil as that spot is not too bad. Regardless our culture will engulf the area in 5 turns)
Although I had enough initial healthy curs - just a few - to upgrade initially to easily defend against the Aztecs and take that eastern Incan city, it still regard a few more turns to a) heal up b) amass more troops for a two pronged attack.
I was actually very lucky and successful on the first few cities I took. Only the last turn taking Machu Pichu did a lose a few Cav. The river crossing didn't help much. Getting SoZ is definitely a good thing.
I'm really all for just taking these guys out. Capac only has 3 more cities and Monty is way behind. We can mass up Cavs pretty quickly. I want Capac's shinies!
Traded Astro for Econ/Rifling/a bit of gold on first turn. Got more gold back in another tech trade for Constitution. Plus, a good chunk of gold from maps and traded some old stuff to Bull a couple of times. Teched Chem while amassing a bit of gold for a couple of turns to upgrade Curs. Finished Chem, Sci Meth and started BIO.
Happiness is going to be an issue soon as AIs will switch to Emanc now. I had an issue with Mutal throughout and had to raise the culture slider a tad at times. With Soz on our side and a jail almost done in Mutal, this should help. I also picked up Fur and Gems along the way.
We popped a GS. He's on the hill west of Laka.
We popped 2 GGs. I attached one to the chariot we had ready and the other is moving up to join the Incan force. I'd just make another medic and attach him to the medic 1 Cav we have up there.
Iz is still in fist mode so we need to keep an eye on her. Joao broke away from her during the TS.
Nice set Lymond.
Some thoughts:
- We might want to take 10t peace with Capac if he's willing to give up a democracy. We could just start romping on SB in the meanwhile.
- Monty is willing to give up a city, but I think it's quicker to just take him out right away.
- I don't see a need to cap anyone. To get Capac as a useful vassal, we're going to have to gift him cities back. I'd rather have the continent to myself.
- Big question: are we going for Space or Domination?
- We should put our EP on someone else.
Some thoughts:
- We might want to take 10t peace with Capac if he's willing to give up a democracy. We could just start romping on SB in the meanwhile.
- Monty is willing to give up a city, but I think it's quicker to just take him out right away.
- I don't see a need to cap anyone. To get Capac as a useful vassal, we're going to have to gift him cities back. I'd rather have the continent to myself.
- Big question: are we going for Space or Domination?
- We should put our EP on someone else.
Mikehendi
IDHEOMHRN
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2008
- Messages
- 461
Hi guys,
I'm terribly sorry that I've disappeared without notice, that's not something I usually do.
I've had a lot going on the past few weeks, and I forgot about this game
(and civ in general).
I'm officially signing out, unfortunately, so please remove me from the roster.
Again, my apologies for not leaving you guys a message.
I'm terribly sorry that I've disappeared without notice, that's not something I usually do.
I've had a lot going on the past few weeks, and I forgot about this game
(and civ in general).I'm officially signing out, unfortunately, so please remove me from the roster.
Again, my apologies for not leaving you guys a message.
Excellent work lymond! ... some well developed infrastructure remains from captured cities too.
Thanks for maintaining the 'build Culture' in Vilcabamba - I'm still slightly neurotic about a European Galleon appearing out of the fog and having a Settler landing there. Super-cautious, I know, and it'll be done in 5 turns I note anyway.
Sengir's suggestions are imho good - although I'm also a bit of the view that he probably won't give up Democracy, and I'd prefer to get his Shrines and Wonders anyway. Once we take out the Incas (assuming ongoing war), should we look at upping the tech' rate a bit?
It'd be great to get some civic swaps done - quite a few turns to the next Golden Age unfortunately. Even Theocracy would be good just to keep Buddhism out of our continent (assuming we take the continent) to avoid Isabella getting a back-door AP win.
My understanding was that we were going for a Spaceship win.
Thanks for letting us know Mike - and catch you later hopefully in another game?
... and just for the record;
lymond
nocho <<< Up
Sengir <<< On Deck
Cam
Norvin_Green
Thanks for maintaining the 'build Culture' in Vilcabamba - I'm still slightly neurotic about a European Galleon appearing out of the fog and having a Settler landing there. Super-cautious, I know, and it'll be done in 5 turns I note anyway.
Sengir's suggestions are imho good - although I'm also a bit of the view that he probably won't give up Democracy, and I'd prefer to get his Shrines and Wonders anyway. Once we take out the Incas (assuming ongoing war), should we look at upping the tech' rate a bit?
It'd be great to get some civic swaps done - quite a few turns to the next Golden Age unfortunately. Even Theocracy would be good just to keep Buddhism out of our continent (assuming we take the continent) to avoid Isabella getting a back-door AP win.
My understanding was that we were going for a Spaceship win.
Thanks for letting us know Mike - and catch you later hopefully in another game?
... and just for the record;
lymond
nocho <<< Up
Sengir <<< On Deck
Cam
Norvin_Green
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Excellent work lymond! ... some well developed infrastructure remains from captured cities too.
Thanks for maintaining the 'build Culture' in Vilcabamba - I'm still slightly neurotic about a European Galleon appearing out of the fog and having a Settler landing there. Super-cautious, I know, and it'll be done in 5 turns I note anyway.
ha...yeah those sneaky settlers bother me as well. Hurrian (HE) was about ready to pop again almost as soon as I razed that city so it grabbed some tiles too.
Yep, I was pleased at some of the goodies were left in capture cities. Always nice. I'm not sure the mechanics exactly and I know it is random, but I think mounted war tends to leave more stuff usually - at least in older cities. As opposed to breaking down defenses with siege.
I don't think we ever got much input on the Space vs. Dom, but I"m fine with Space. Once we take the continent we can build tons of research/wealth to push back into the tech lead.
