Apostolic Palace broken?

[Alsn]

My only complaint is that if youre unlucky you could lose before you have the chance to actually spread your religion around, if the AP religion spreads to a single one of your cities they will get the option to vote for diplo win(assuming of course that everyone else has a single city or more with that particular religion) and if they do before you could possibly churn out enough missionaries then youre just screwed, nothing you can do.

Thats about the only complaint i have, except for the silly stuff(ai declares war on me and then that very same ai starts a vote to end the war when hes clearly winning......)

 

[Kark]

90% of the time it's absolutely worthless other than the +2 hammers and the +2 diplomatic points for voting for a friend.

Does the AP give you hammers? I haven't noticed.

 

[Zetetic Apparat]

I presume this is really only a problem if you've gone around conquering half the world while failing to think far enough ahead as regards the AP.

Easy solution: Don't wipe out almost every major religious block that would prevent an AP Diplo win without taking control of the AP first. Or go for a cultural victory, you nasty warmongers.

 

[HungryMouse]

Question on the topic: how do you propose resolutions in Apostolic Palace? Or are they spawned automatically? The reason I am asking this is that I have these resolutions appearing VERY rarely, for the current game I have had only one (stop trading with Tokugawa).

 

[The Navy Seal]

Well it depends on how many civs are that religion the more there are the more resolutions you can pass.

 

[Slaughter]

Frankly, compared to the Alpha Centauri's Planetary Concil, the UN and the Apostolic Palace aren't that good. Now, Alpha Centauri did i right.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

So let me get this straight, you can win an easy Diplo victory if:
*you own the Apostolic Palace
*you spread the religion to at least 1 citiy of at least 2 AIs
*you have the majority vote

obviously you want to spread the AP religion to the smallest possible cities of the AI and have the religion present in all your cities to ensure a majority.
Sounds like a pretty easy win, all you need to do is beeline Theology to found Christianity and build the AP.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

Does anyone hear know how to change the religion of the Apostolic Palace. Right now in my current game I own it but it says it's Buddhist even though my state religion is Hinduisn and Hinduism is present in the city where it's built.

A little background on the game so far (monarch/Pangaea/standard/marathon):
I'm Boudicca of the Celts, start with Izzy as a neighbour she founds Buddhism, Monty founds Hinduism. I chariot rush Izzy take her first city defended by 1 archer she finishes Oracle in Madrid I capture that a couple of turns later defended by 2 archers , her other cities are on hills to I leave them for now.
Meanwhile Hinduism spreads to everyone except Zara Yaqob who goes confucian.
Izzy has 2 cities left, finishes Pyramids in one and the Apostolic Palace in the other. Now that my Catapults are online I finish her off.
So the whole world except for Zara are hindu, I have the biggest pop and are Friendly with everyone. I've just stirred up a war between Monty(next biggest pop I think) and Catherine, Alex will attack Monty for the right price.
I think I'm sure thing for leader of the Apostolic Palace and an early Diplo victory would be really sweet but there hasn't been a new vote for at least 500 years.
Is it locked as Buddhist?
will it even turn Hindu?

 

[Spearthrower]

What was your state religion when you built it?

The AP remains the same religion throughout.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

What was your state religion when you built it?

The AP remains the same religion throughout.

Izzy built it and she was Buddhist. Bummer.

 

[Spearthrower]

There you go then - even if you change religions, the AP remains the religion it was built under.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

There you go then - even if you change religions, the AP remains the religion it was built under.

I had a feeling that was the case. thanks

 

[oedali]

obviously you want to spread the AP religion to the smallest possible cities of the AI and have the religion present in all your cities to ensure a majority.
Sounds like a pretty easy win, all you need to do is beeline Theology to found Christianity and build the AP.

It's NOT an easy win. I tried it several times but failed - you gotta play strategically AND get lucky to win an early diplomatic victory using the AP. So all those of you who got beaten to it by the AI, you just gotta learn how to deal with it whether you're the one who builds it or not. It's just part of the game. I personally enjoy the challenge it adds.

 

[Joosty]

I don't know about whether the OP has been defeated fairly by the AI because he neglected certain aspects of the game, or whether what happened was a freak result of mechanics.

However, I find the idea that someone in control of the AP can vote himself to win stupid. Before you all rant on about that's just how it works or how there are a million ways to prevent this from happening:
A diplomatic victory should be the result of the constructive pursuit of good relations with the majority of your competitors. Simply put, you cannot declare yourself the diplomatic winner. Diplomacy wins are won through diplomacy. The AP has little to do with that it seems.

 

[Spearthrower]

There's always been "backdoor diplomacy victory" with the UN in Civ IV.... the AP just makes it a vote based on religious population rather than social population. Voting yourself in has always been a method of winning.

While I can agree that the victory condition itself may not well implemented, it's not a specific negative element of the AP.

 

[Kark]

So let me get this straight, you can win an easy Diplo victory if:
*you own the Apostolic Palace
*you spread the religion to at least 1 citiy of at least 2 AIs
*you have the majority vote

No. Every civ must have one city with your religion before a diplomatic victory is an option. And if a neighboring civ converts to your religion (witch used to be a good thing, especially if you have the shrine), you soon will find it having a bigger population than you, and then you loose the vote for religious leader. So it’s not that easy.

 

[kazapp]

At least you can get rid of it by turning off Diplomatic Victory (which you can't say about the new tedious Spy units :-(

Already in the basic game the UN drove me crazy with the endless popups. I like the basic idea, but until Firaxis implements an answering machine allowing you to autoreply "no, I won't vote for any of your plans" and not be bothered by popups ever I won't have anything to do with either the UN or the AP.

 

[SwedishChef]

Here's something I don't think people have paid much attention to:

A conquest or domination victory requires having developed and deployed a powerful military and having crushed your oppoents. You are the most powerful military player in the game - and may well lead in other respects, such as cities, population, and perhaps even science - when you win.

A Time victory represents having the highest total score, and thus the "best" civiliztion at the end of the game. You might split hairs over the specific formula used for calculating score, but no civ that's not genuinely a leader in the game can win this way - it still requires being the best, even if you're just edging out second by a small amount.

Cultural Victory reflects having the most powerful culture - generally awesomely more powerful than your opponents. (In order to achieve this you're probably also doing OK in terms of technology and perhaps militarily in order to defend it, but not necessarily.) It represents being the best in one area requiring massive investment, and possibly other areas. (I also think this victory is pretty tough to achieve.)

Space Race Victory generally requires at least technological parity, if not leadership, and significant production capacity, along with good timing. You may also need a non-trivial amount of military to defend your construction. There's certainly no way to pull off a surprise space race, and it represents a huge amount of work.

UN Diplomatic Victory requires having the support of the majority of the world. You not only had to build the wonder, you had to build the relationships. You're civilization is large, successful, and well liked enough to be supported by more than half the planet. (Is it 2/3rds? I forget.)

So what does the Apostolic Palace Victory require/represent? It seems to be the only victory condition by which the weakest Civ can "come from behind." In a game with few players remaining, it's actually better to NOT spread your religion much. You don't need the largest population, highest score, any particular military strength, production capacity, or technology. It represents nothing more substantive than building a single wonder and having barely spread your religion.

That's my problem with it. Well, my main problem - in so much as the game is a "simulation," I just can't get past my problem with the idea that the less populous civ suddenly wins because a few guys in ONE of my border towns happen to follow another religious leader. 99% of my people are NOT their religion. I have more people, money, military might, production capacity, etc. yet they suddenly win? In what way are they better? How did they achieve more? What world is this? What situation does it represent? How is this "realistic" (yes, I know not everyone has "realism" issues with elements of the game) is this?)

If I were naming it, I'd call it "the terrorist victory." The sleeper cell in your border town creates enough fear and panic that the mightier civ just caves in to the demands of the foreign religious leader. (That doesn't seem very realistic, either.)

 

[jackdog]

I kinda see your point but forgive me for saying no-one said religion made sense. You could say that getting a following of your religion spread all over the world to every civ even if it only has an enclave if a feat and brings some religious unity that no other civ has managed, and this deserves recognition, perhaps a win. The win vote is still not guarentee as you still need a big majority and others to vote for you. The AI's don't have to vote for the win even if they have a town with your religion so still need to be well liked like in the UN. You could say its harder than UN due to the spread requirement that are hard when one bugger will not open boarders. Last two games have planned and tried my hardest for the AP win but in the end turns from domination some other idiot has built UN and I have won Diplo as I have so many vassals, does that make sense.

 

[Spearthrower]

SwedishChef.... the main point is that this case of a civ voting itself in is hardly a regular occurence.

Look at it another way - going from your description above, how about if a civ who was not the tech leader, not the strongest military, not the most cultural, but had the most population by far was to vote themselves in using the UN...... it could happen to exactly the same effect as the AP.

Of course, it doesn't happen often.... just like the AI winning diplo victory through AP doesnt happen often. People who fell victim to it once are NEVER going to again.... or if they do then they deserve to.

You want a real world example - just look at Christianity in Europe throughout the Middle Ages. If you choose not to go with the flow and stay a Pagan country, then you shouldn't be surprised to find yourself edged out of the circles of power. All the AP is doing is simulating an extremely dominant religion.

There are numerous tweaks that I think are needed to support the depth of play that the AP has to offer, but I think that is a very interesting addition to the game, offering a variety of play-styles and demanding counter tactics from the player. It's made Medieval-Renaissance religion have a much higher importance than in previous versions, which is very realistic, if that's what you are looking for.