Apostolic Palace broken?

I personally don't see too many problems with it yet. I agree that the tiny map scenario seems a little wrong though. As such, I support this idea to remove this scenario:

Personally to "fix" this, I'd make it a straight percentage.... i.e. ALL leaders must have X religion present in one of their cities (as now) and X % of the world must follow that religion (taking into account cities with multiple religions). This would make spamming a secondary religion a good counter strategy (lowering the overall percentage of the AP religion) and make religion have more of a competitive element.

At least then, if you're going for domination, you just need to remember to spread another religion along with your conquering. This is much better than running theocracy all game and razing any city that gets "infected" by the AP's religion.

Anyone see any problems with adding the percentage? If not, it's a pretty quick and easy fix to implement and we should suggest it for the next patch.

I also think that the UN being built should be enough to remove the AP from the rest of the game, or at least disable the victory condition. It shouldn't be left up to the tech pace of the AP owner.
 
While I accept the opinions in the rest of your post as your own, I definitely disagree here.... what reality are we talking about exactly? :D

[...]

We have Conflicting Realities Syndrome, methinks! :)

Thanks Spearthrower for concrete words.
Just to precise: of course it is a game, an abstraction, not reality, but shall we accept tyranosaurus-rex units in WWII scenario? Of course not...
I accept apostolic palace, but not the effects.

IMO religion has big and enough effect on the game: relations, production and economy via religious buildings, people's happiness - thats a lot. This is a powerful tool to shape the world and support your civ against other odds.
Thats why I'm saying I do not need AP because all most important religious effects are already in the game. AP is only visualisation of some religion instutionalism I would say but is int it the Holy City that helds this concept? Each Holy City is kind of Apostolic Palace for the particular religion as it is in the known World in terms of functionality. In terms of building (or wonder) there is only one religion (Christianity) that built it. Other religions do not build any kind of APs beacuse of their different character. Holy City is a good universal feature that combines all religions characters despite of a particular details - it does not matter to me if the Holy City comes from a building, mystic place, birthplace of a prophet, or site of a institution like AP or anything else.
 
I don't understand why it destroys immersion when it is, symbolically at least, fairly realistic.

If you look at the power the Catholic church had over European Christian nations throughout mid to late Medieval period, it is clear that for all intents and purposes Rome "won" a Religious victory by the simple fact that any leader that opposed them could be excommunicated from the clique.

It wasn't until the Renaissance that you start to see nations powerful enough for their leaders to risk excommunication and directly challenge the church.


Personally to "fix" this, I'd make it a straight percentage.... i.e. ALL leaders must have X religion present in one of their cities (as now) and X % of the world must follow that religion (taking into account cities with multiple religions). This would make spamming a secondary religion a good counter strategy (lowering the overall percentage of the AP religion) and make religion have more of a competitive element.

I should point out that in your example there are many, many "Christian" cities in the affected area. I see a contradiction inherent in that the fewer cities have the religion in a foreign nation, the more power you have over them. Far more realistic would be to invert that... you get more power as you convert cities, but you also risk those cities being able to influence the church. It's a far more sensible dynamic.
 
To those objecting that religion was so powerul in the past, a question. Just how poweful was Rome over NON-CHRISTIAN countries?

That's part of the problem. It's not that the idea of the AP is some horrible creation that should be wiped from the game - it's that it could have been done so many BETTER ways. Better in terms of gameplay, and in terms of "realism" or "immersion."

If the AP player has converted the world, that's impressive and should give them power. It's the fact that they have the power to win the game when opponents are NOT of their religion and have little of it in their empires that is problematic. Heck - if they win the AP vote, flip the cities of all dissenting empires to be 100% loyal (with preserved culture) to THEIR empire for all I care - just don't end the game because there are a few fanatics in my smallest border town.

Rome didn't control China. After the schism which generated the Orthodox Church (which predates the Protestant Reformation by centuries) they didn't control those countries. They didn't control the Ottoman Empire. They controlled CHRISTIAN countries.

I assume the design decision was made that only influencing countries who WERE your religion would make the AP too weak, so they expanded it to countries that HAD your religion. But that makes it too broad.

As I mentioned in a previous post, it's the only victory condition which reflects complete lack of dominance in at least one category (heck, the AP county's religion doesn't even have to be the most wide-spread in terms of nations adhering to it, cities having it, or population affected by it - it can be the smallest religion on the planet).

I also think it affects more situations than some have suggested - even standard games with 1-2 players eliminated by you and 1-2 eliminated by the AI can result in a small enough set of remaining playes to create the problem conditions mentioned. (And obviously there is at least one bug since 2 games have been reported where only 2 players were in the game and the AP AI player won.)

I think it can befixed, and there are a lot of options - many of which have been described here. I like the idea of an inquisitor unit, for example. I like the idea of giving the AP player power or influence over the cities containing their religion and/or the countries adhering to it. But in its current form it's more annoying than fun.
 
The only big problem with the AP are the possibility of an unrealistic diplomatic victory. It’s not unrealistic that a religious fanatic believes he has the right to win in this way, but it should be possible to defy the vote for religious leader, as you can with the AP resolutions. The fanatic would of course say “if your not with me, your against me”, with the risk of him declaring a holy war against you, but that’s realistic.
 
SwedishChef

How about the constant historical fact again modelled by the game where there is a large number of adherents in a city to a religion different from the state?

You simplified reality too much, state religion versus the people's religion is a complex can of worms and I think that's what the AP models.
 
Kark has the key point "Diplomatic Victory" needs to be Defiable

However, instead of being a "Diplo Victory" vote it should be a "World Government" vote.
with
Candidate 1
Candidate 2
Abstain
Never!

However, this time Never would NOT be a Veto, if either candidate got enough votes, then from that point on
1. They are the only ones that get to vote on Resolutions (so when you choose a resolution, it instantly passes/is revoked)
2. The Resolutions don't apply to those that Defied the 'World Government'.. they stay in Permanent Defiance
3. Everyone who voted for the leader of the 'World government' will get a DiploVictory once all Defiers are eliminated or Vassalized

This way
#3 means I (a human player) have a reason to vote for another player [Everyone who voted gets the win]
#1 means winning the election has some real benefits
#2 means that the Game can essentially ignore the Victory condition if it is not strong enough.

Defying a UN world government would be bad .. continual unhappiness.. but able to be handled
Defying an AP world government would only be bad if you had significant numbers of that religion
[the Inquisitor unit might be good for that... although I think it should be with Divine Right... to make that tech good, but I could see Not having an Inquisitor unit]

the main issue is the UN WG would hav at least 67% of the world's pop against you.. an AP WG might not.. it would just be a government of that religion.
 
IMO, AP should activate only when there are three nations with the religion as the official state religion, and only offer diplomatic victory with, let's say, 5 people with it as the official religion.

Capturing a city and then being exposed to all the negative effects from the AP is just sort of silly -- you should only be subject to Rome's decrees if your country is Roman Catholic, not protestant or Anglican or Buddhist, or whatever.

The victory should represent uniting the world under a common faith, not representing sneaking your religion into miniscule outposts around the world.
 
While reading this I had an idea:

Use missionaries as inquisitor. If a city has Taoism and Christianity, the Christian missionary can still attempt to spread the religion - and convert the Taoist residents. (exception being if it is the Taoist holy city)

This could have multiple benefits:
It could be used offensively by eliminating a religion in a rival civ's city. Imagine eliminating the state religion from a civ running Theocracy?
If a civ has a shrine, less gold income.
If a civ is running free religion or has a state religion, less culture.

It could also be used defensively:
Remove those pesky Hindu's from the city you just took over - they should know that Buddism is the way. This would eliminate the cheap AP vote.
In vanilla, it would take away LOS.

The key to all this would be that the religion has to be present in your city already. To remove Christianity from a city, I would have to send a Muslim missionary to spread Islam, then send another Islamic missionary to remove Christianity.

I think this is at least a little realistic. Christian missionaries will often proselytize to people of other faiths. And when these people convert, they leave their other religion behind.

I'm sure this can be used in other ways that I have not thought of.
 
The AP's problem is not its high power, but that the power makes no sense.

It allows entire empires to have their course steered by the beliefs of a couple of its smallest, crappiest cities because those cities have in them the religion of the people who founded the AP.

This is wrong. It is what needs to be fixed.
 
The AP's problem is not its high power, but that the power makes no sense.

It allows entire empires to have their course steered by the beliefs of a couple of its smallest, crappiest cities because those cities have in them the religion of the people who founded the AP.

This is wrong. It is what needs to be fixed.

If your small crappy cities are the only ones with the AP religion, then
DEFY THE AP!! only those cities will get the penalty.*

*(Yes I realize this doesn't work in the case of religious/diplomatic victory... but that is a different issue.)
 
Personally, I think the problem isn't so much the mechanics of how the AP works (which are fair and realistic given the reality of the game), but the game-ending abilities it has.

My solution would be to remove the "diplomatic win" ability for it, and replace that bonus with either a free golden age or a lasting positive bonus in diplomacy. Maybe both. The diplomatic bonus shouldn't be permanant (the rest of the real-life world certainly doesn't kowtow to Rome because it "won" the AP vote a few hundred years ago), but it shouldn't disappear all of a sudden (gut feeling). Maybe +2 or +3 up until Mass Media, then +1 or +2 until the UN is built.

The golden age bonus makes the most sense. Maybe make the golden age only apply to cities with the AP religion.

It'd be good to have the "defy-penalty" scale somewhat, but this would require a reimplementation of how the religion system works, and I'm not terribly sure that'd be such a good thing.

Of course, those are only arbitrary numbers - maybe they'd have to be tweaked a bit for balance, but I think this would be the best course of action. :)
 
Wait... doesn't Bhruics patch (or the 3.13 patch, I can't remember which) fix this?

I thought that one of those patches says:

You cannot win a diplomatic victory if you have enough votes to win by yourself.

That one sentence would fix all these problems.

I LOVE the AP, but it requires a little getting used to. You can win without the AP, but it requires a bit of skill.

The AP is a very powerful wonder, probably the most powerful. It does need a small nerfing, but I think that that patch fixes the main problem.
 
Kark has the key point "Diplomatic Victory" needs to be Defiable

However, instead of being a "Diplo Victory" vote it should be a "World Government" vote.
with
Candidate 1
Candidate 2
Abstain
Never!

However, this time Never would NOT be a Veto, if either candidate got enough votes, then from that point on
1. They are the only ones that get to vote on Resolutions (so when you choose a resolution, it instantly passes/is revoked)
2. The Resolutions don't apply to those that Defied the 'World Government'.. they stay in Permanent Defiance
3. Everyone who voted for the leader of the 'World government' will get a DiploVictory once all Defiers are eliminated or Vassalized

This way
#3 means I (a human player) have a reason to vote for another player [Everyone who voted gets the win]
#1 means winning the election has some real benefits
#2 means that the Game can essentially ignore the Victory condition if it is not strong enough.

Defying a UN world government would be bad .. continual unhappiness.. but able to be handled
Defying an AP world government would only be bad if you had significant numbers of that religion
[the Inquisitor unit might be good for that... although I think it should be with Divine Right... to make that tech good, but I could see Not having an Inquisitor unit]

the main issue is the UN WG would hav at least 67% of the world's pop against you.. an AP WG might not.. it would just be a government of that religion.

I'd be more in favor of a real "Unification" vote:
- Yes -> the voter becomes a vassal of the AP holder getting some extra bonus or whatever
- No -> the voter does not become a vassal and cities with that faith in them get some angry citizens

This way, if all civs agree it's a diplo victory, if a lot of civs agree, it may be a domination victory. If a human player agrees, then it's the end of the game. And as it's a matter of peacetime vassals, those civs can later on decide to break free so it's not permanent.

On a side note: I'd also like to see a counter somewhere, counting off to the next AP/UN vote, and, if decided not to pose a resolution, to see some mention of it in the event log. This way, you can plan wars right after the event.
 
I don't disagree with the AP as such and don't agree with the AP win but as its so easy to stop with civic choice I am not bothered. what frustrates the hell out of me is the mechanics of it and how it can totally change game play, there also appears to be randomness to voting numbers.

Current game I build it for the hammers as someone else would have if I didn't but it has messed me up ever since. Initially I did not quite have the size and poulation and didn't get elected. The whole continent 3 civs left is one AP religion and we were all friendly. I went to war as had several large stacks and had planned it so within a few turns should have tipped the voting balance in my favour. Sure enough the palaces attenpt to stop the war was blocked by me without having to defy. I took about 4 big cities very quickly.

Next resolution to return a small city passed, I was peeved but what the hell, easy to take back later. After a few more cities taken from each civ I have more cities and population than either, the religion is in every city on the continent, but somehow one of the civs has more votes than me and with them all buddy buddy they can pass anything they like....how the hell does this work, why don't I have more votes, is this a 3.13 bug bric fixes?. They stop the war, fine 10 turns later all healed up with new recruits added and off we go again, Take another few cities off one civ and still they have more votes than me. I resent having to defy and suffer a pretty bad penalty when I have only just under 50% of the population and cities compared to the other 2 put together, especially when I built the damn thing. I think building it should have some power to stop some or all of its effects, if I have it why can't I burn the thing down. I would turn off diplo victories but don't mind the UN stuff and use this for a quick win when I can't be bothered to dominate.

Having ato adopt a strategy to let someone else build it so you cab raise the damn thing later surely means its broken, I will never build it again!!
 
It's not broken - that was it working as intended.

That may be so, but it definetly could use some tweaking. I find it a bit silly that you can be a voting member simply by having a single city with the religion. It should be restricted to civs that only have the same religion as their state relgion. Having only one city makes it too powerful and doesn't really force you to try and do anything about spreading your religion. It's supposed to represent a religious victory but you don't really have to work at it. It would be much more of a challenge if you actually had to get other civs to convert in order to win that way.
 
Kark has the key point "Diplomatic Victory" needs to be Defiable

However, instead of being a "Diplo Victory" vote it should be a "World Government" vote.
with
Candidate 1
Candidate 2
Abstain
Never!

However, this time Never would NOT be a Veto, if either candidate got enough votes, then from that point on
1. They are the only ones that get to vote on Resolutions (so when you choose a resolution, it instantly passes/is revoked)
2. The Resolutions don't apply to those that Defied the 'World Government'.. they stay in Permanent Defiance
3. Everyone who voted for the leader of the 'World government' will get a DiploVictory once all Defiers are eliminated or Vassalized

This way
#3 means I (a human player) have a reason to vote for another player [Everyone who voted gets the win]
#1 means winning the election has some real benefits
#2 means that the Game can essentially ignore the Victory condition if it is not strong enough.

Defying a UN world government would be bad .. continual unhappiness.. but able to be handled
Defying an AP world government would only be bad if you had significant numbers of that religion
[the Inquisitor unit might be good for that... although I think it should be with Divine Right... to make that tech good, but I could see Not having an Inquisitor unit]

the main issue is the UN WG would hav at least 67% of the world's pop against you.. an AP WG might not.. it would just be a government of that religion.

I think this would be almost equally game-breaking (if I can switch to and from Nuclear non-aggression, or holy war / forced peace with impunity, there's almost nothing I can do to lose the game). Not to mention that these victory conditions would be rather ridiculous in MP (it'd be just the same as teams, except that this way everyone could collude beforehand and vote for the same guy just to win).

Maybe if it were tweaked a bit, so that:

1) Only civs that vote for a candidate (regardless of whether or not they vote for the "winner") are affected by "World Government" resolutions.

2) Civs that vote for the "winner" would be able to vote on the future resolutions (a necessary "real world" assurance - if I elect a "dictator for life", what's stopping them from "turning rogue" after they're elected? And if nothing's stopping them, why would I risk voting for anyone?).

3) Civs that vote for the "loser" will not be able to vote, while still remaining answerable to the resolutions passed. They'll end up in a position similar to vassal states - if they end up controlling more land / cities / population than the "winner voting" civs, a new election will occur. This is realistic, given the "pre-modern" "life isn't fair" era that the AP represents, while still giving the "loser voters" a reason to keep trying.

4) Civs that "abstain" will have neither the bonuses of "winner voting" nor the punishment of "loser voting", but allying with either faction will "count" towards the diplo flip in #3 (i.e., if Ghandi abstains, then later forms an alliance with the Netherlands (who voted for the loser), his land and population will count towards the "new election revolution").

5) Civs that vote "never" will never be bound by the AP laws, and the AP won't be able to govern them (so if Tokugawa votes "never", he'll never have to give back a city he conquered, but likewise, even if he becomes Asoka's vassal, the AP will never be able to force its members to declare peace on him). Their cities and territories won't count for either side, no matter who they're allied with, unless one side takes their cities by force. I think this would result in a fair compromise - you could wage war with impunity, and conduct your diplomacy mano-a-mano, the good old-fasioned Despotic way, but your lands would be ripe for invasion, since voters of both sides know that your cities will never have to be given back, and can give their "side" an advantage in the "new election revolution".

So, generally, you'd end up with side A (the winners) in an uneasy relationship with side B (the losers), while sides C (abstainers) and D (nevers) are prone to alliance to keep the other two sides off their back. An intriguing balance of power, I'd imagine. Sorta like the Cold War in a way.

I'm tempted to make it even more deep - maybe off the deep end here, even - by having some mechanism for "friendly overthrow" (i.e., a supermajority of all voters, regardless of who they voted for, could demand a new election - this would help ensure that the winner doesn't go rogue after winning, yet, since it'd be a supermajority, a lot of "winner voters" would have to be flipped - this way it wouldn't be a constant see-saw). I don't know if this could ever be gracefully merged into the AI, but, man, they've merged everything else in, so a guy can dream :D

True diplomatic victory would only come through the UN (since by that point every civ has had opportunity for growth and a major war or two), and UN votes could "override" AP votes. Some other civ controls the AP and his alliances are tight enough to keep him in control? Focus on the UN. You're on the AP and the UN is coming to power? Maybe you should try and spread the AP religion, so the AP will have more votes than the UN. But this could backfire, since there's a good chance those UN members don't like you very much, and may well use their newfound extra votes to vote you out! And there's always the chance that the AP religion is spread to every city, but the numbers are still weaker than those of the UN - in which case, it sounds like a good argument for Holy War against the infidels! :D

Think of the horribly bloody and complicated wars that could result from this! :D

That may be so, but it definetly could use some tweaking. I find it a bit silly that you can be a voting member simply by having a single city with the religion. It should be restricted to civs that only have the same religion as their state relgion. Having only one city makes it too powerful and doesn't really force you to try and do anything about spreading your religion. It's supposed to represent a religious victory but you don't really have to work at it. It would be much more of a challenge if you actually had to get other civs to convert in order to win that way.

I believe that the number of votes you're given is dependent on the number of cities with the AP religion. At least, that's how it seemed to work in my game. There could, of course, be RNG-derived atrocities, such as having the AP being built on another continent where its religion is widespread, then "leaking" to yours in the period immediately following Scientific Method, leaving you forced to rely on the benevolence of the passive religion-spread algorithm.

Still, it's a good argument for "tiering" the various abilities it has, so civs with only one or two "voting cities" could only be "sternly advised" (with a lighter unhappiness penalty) to give back cities, declare peace, etc. And, of course, I already made a few suggestions for an "ultimate bonus" that would be worth the time and effort it'd take to get a majority vote, while keeping games from ending cold.

Now if only the game would stop crashing to desktop every ten turns... speaking of "ending cold" :(
 
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