Apparently, vaccination is rape

[Timsup2nothin]

"Personal freedoms" is the new states' rights.

I don't even care about personal freedoms in regards to this issue. I think both sides are ridiculous.

 

[Sonereal]

The only side that is ridiculous is the one putting the lives of other people at risk out of ignorance and selfishness.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The only side that is ridiculous is the one putting the lives of other people at risk out of ignorance and selfishness.

No one is putting lives at any more significant risk on either side.

Your demand for gulags is absurd, but doesn't put "lives at risk" because the bad reaction rate on the vaccines is very low.

The whole "vaccination is rape" nonsense is equally absurd, but doesn't put lives at risk either because the mortality rates for the diseases in question are equally low.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

Ah, another of the favored antivax gambits. "Measles isn't even that serious!"

Unfortunately, it's just not so. According to the World Health Organization, in 2013 there were more than 145,000 deaths globally from the measles. Measles is a serious disease. Of course there are risks with the vaccine. Nobody is claiming that vaccines are 100% safe. People do have rare allergic reactions and such from them. But those reactions are small relative to the danger of the disease itself. I compare it to seat belts. There is a small chance when involved in a major car crash that the seat belt itself will end up injuring or killing you. But the chances of that happening are a lot lower than the chances of injury or death if you don't have it on. When I say that vaccines are safe I mean that they are safe relative to the disease that they protect against.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Ah, another of the favored antivax gambits. "Measles isn't even that serious!"

Unfortunately, it's just not so. According to the World Health Organization, in 2013 there were more than 145,000 deaths globally from the measles. Measles is a serious disease. Of course there are risks with the vaccine. Nobody is claiming that vaccines are 100% safe. People do have rare allergic reactions and such from them. But those reactions are small relative to the danger of the disease itself. I compare it to seat belts. There is a small chance when involved in a major car crash that the seat belt itself will end up injuring or killing you. But the chances of that happening are a lot lower than the chances of injury or death if you don't have it on. When I say that vaccines are safe I mean that they are safe relative to the disease that they protect against.

You can compare it to seat belts if you want, I'll just compare the actual mortality rates of the diseases and the actual bad reaction rates of the vaccines...both of which are equally negligible.

 

[W|M]

The mortality rates are low because the vaccination rates are high

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The mortality rates are low because the vaccination rates are high

The mortality rates were low before the vaccines were invented.

The diseases in question are hugely contagious. They always were. But the mortality rates are just as negligible as the bad reaction rates from the vaccines.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

The mortality rates were low before the vaccines were invented.

The diseases in question are hugely contagious. They always were. But the mortality rates are just as negligible as the bad reaction rates from the vaccines.

Tim, please tell me where you're getting your numbers to make these claims. Because the WHO estimates that between the years of 2000 - 2013, the measles vaccine prevented over 15 million deaths. That's not negligible in my book. If you have alternative numbers please do share their source.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

From the CDC.

In 1912, measles became a nationally notifiable disease in the United States, requiring U.S. healthcare providers and laboratories to report all diagnosed cases. In the first decade of reporting, an average of 6,000 measles-related deaths were reported each year.

In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 4,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles.

Between 1912 and 1963 health care and treatment had vastly improved, dropping mortality from 6000 per year into the 500-600 range. There was still no vaccine at all, and because measles is so contagious literally everyone got it. Everyone in the US got it, and only a few hundred died of it. That's reality. Health care and treatment has continued to improve, so it is highly probable that the mortality rate today would be even lower.

You are using that 15 million deaths in a fourteen year period...and it is a big number. But if you convert it to a mortality rate on a planet with seven billion people the rate is actually negligible. Even with the negligible rate of bad reactions to the vaccine, if you injected seven billion people with it there would be tens of millions of deaths.

Plus, that fifteen million deaths is a worldwide number that really doesn't relate to the US. If we were in a part of the world where you can't even get an aspirin and fevers routinely kill people then the argument for vaccinating against a mild disease that does cause fevers might be more compelling. In the US we are fully capable of treating measles and keeping it from killing people, so the need to prevent it is greatly reduced.

 

[onejayhawk]

"Personal freedoms" is the new states' rights.

"My body, my choice." Ring any bells?

J

 

[Sonereal]

No not really.

Is this an abortion thing? Because this thread has like, nothing to do with abortion.

 

[onejayhawk]

No not really.

Is this an abortion thing? Because this thread has like, nothing to do with abortion.

It has to do with the right to make medical choices.

J

 

[Evie]

How many people who "have a negative reaction" to the vaccine die, again?

Because, Tim, it seems to me that if you include anyone who has a negative reaction to the vaccine, you should include on the other side everyone who had to be hospitalized. Including only the death in the "negative effects" column for measle, but any and all negative reaction for vaccine is apples and oranges.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

How many people who "have a negative reaction" to the vaccine die, again?

Because, Tim, it seems to me that if you include anyone who has a negative reaction to the vaccine, you should include on the other side everyone who had to be hospitalized. Including only the death in the "negative effects" column for measle, but any and all negative reaction for vaccine is apples and oranges.

If someone is hospitalized and leaves the hospital with no long term damage, how do they count? In either case? Measles affects children, which makes identification of the long term effects difficult. Am I less quick witted as a result of a measles induced fever in my very young days? I cannot say. But the ill effects of vaccination affect infants, often also producing fevers, so there it goes to an even deeper level of impossible to measure.

At the end of the day, I rely on this for my own comfort in the position that I take. Measles, left with no vaccine whatsoever, was actually not a big deal. I had it. My entire generation had it. The generation before mine had it. In the era of thanking God for Jonas Salk and the polio vaccine, hardly anyone could even imagine a good reason for a measles vaccine, as unlike polio it was just a routine childhood disease. So, yes, I will continue to mock those who propose a gulag for the unvaccinated on the grounds that they are [breathlessly] putting all our very lives on a knife edge over the abyss!!!! [/breathlessly]

I will also mock those who attribute every ill framed thought or failure of grandeur in their offspring to that terrible day they were vaccinated. Or as stated in the reference of the opening post somehow needle raped. So no worries.

 

[Evie]

The rate of severe allergic reaction is around one to a million. That's not death, that's severe allergic reactions. The rate of death is, as far as I can find, is astronomically low even out of that one in a million.

Compared to that, the death rate of Measles - even in the sixties - was one to ten thousand case (400-500 to 4 000 000 cases). The rate of actual hospitalizations was around one in a hundred.

We're just talking about a reduction by, oh, two orders of magnitude or so for deaths vs severe allergic reactions. A lot more for actual deaths.

In refusing to vaccinate, and putting other childrens at risk of catching the disease, those parents massively increase the risk of serious consequences (hospitalization or death) for other children.

 

[Borachio]

Er...

I had a sister who had a severe reaction to the whooping cough vaccine, and screamed, and screamed...

... and screamed for about six months until my father eventually went to the GP and suggested she was taken into a care home else they'd very shortly be having to take my mother into care as well.

My sister eventually settled down to a mental age of about 2. She could go to the toilet fairly well, provided that someone went with her. And she had to have a general anaesthetic before a dentist could even look in her mouth.

She died a couple of years ago. At the age of 62.

I don't believe my mother had any of her subsequent children vaccinated for whooping cough.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Between 1912 and 1963 health care and treatment had vastly improved, dropping mortality from 6000 per year into the 500-600 range. There was still no vaccine at all, and because measles is so contagious literally everyone got it. Everyone in the US got it, and only a few hundred died of it. That's reality. Health care and treatment has continued to improve, so it is highly probable that the mortality rate today would be even lower.

Literally everyone? Like 100% of the people?

Well, I don't live in the US, but we have modern medical practices here as well... and I have never had measles. I also haven't had chicken pox. I did have mumps as an adult, and it left me with lifelong health problems.

BTW, I knew someone who died of measles... very sad time, that. He was 13 and caught it when it was going around the school that year (in the mid-'70s).

If someone is hospitalized and leaves the hospital with no long term damage, how do they count? In either case? Measles affects children, which makes identification of the long term effects difficult. Am I less quick witted as a result of a measles induced fever in my very young days? I cannot say. But the ill effects of vaccination affect infants, often also producing fevers, so there it goes to an even deeper level of impossible to measure.

I will also mock those who attribute every ill framed thought or failure of grandeur in their offspring to that terrible day they were vaccinated. Or as stated in the reference of the opening post somehow needle raped. So no worries.

Adults get measles.

 

[W|M]

Rubella (one of the components of the MMR vaccine) was officially wiped out in the Americas last week.

It caused autism when pregnant mothers were infected.

 

[onejayhawk]

I have never had rubella.

I see both sides of this. Vaccinations do not work properly unless well over 3/4 of the people comply. The exact number is unimportant. The point is that it can be done for individuals or for the community. If for the community, compliance must be compulsory.

It seems a pretty clear case of medical privacy. If a woman has the right to an abortion, or not, then a person has a right to an inoculation--or not.

J

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The rate of severe allergic reaction is around one to a million. That's not death, that's severe allergic reactions. The rate of death is, as far as I can find, is astronomically low even out of that one in a million.

Compared to that, the death rate of Measles - even in the sixties - was one to ten thousand case (400-500 to 4 000 000 cases). The rate of actual hospitalizations was around one in a hundred.

We're just talking about a reduction by, oh, two orders of magnitude or so for deaths vs severe allergic reactions. A lot more for actual deaths.

In refusing to vaccinate, and putting other childrens at risk of catching the disease, those parents massively increase the risk of serious consequences (hospitalization or death) for other children.

Seizure due to high fever is listed as 1 in 3000 according to the CDC. How a parent balances that against a future 1 in 10000 mortality rate is not something I think merits the gulag over disagreement, since I consider both to be in the 'negligible' category.

Literally everyone? Like 100% of the people?

As the CDC said, nearly all children got it by the time they were fifteen. So not literally everyone, but darn close. I remember the annual event at school: "Joey is out sick, if you have ever had the measles raise your hand" and all hands raised except one or two...who would in all probability join Joey and then raise their hands next time.

Well, I don't live in the US, but we have modern medical practices here as well... and I have never had measles. I also haven't had chicken pox. I did have mumps as an adult, and it left me with lifelong health problems.

The point about modern medical practices was that the mortality rate from catching measles if you do catch it changes dramatically if you have or do not have effective treatment for the fever. When people point to a mortality rate of 1-2% among undernourished children who don't have adequate shelter or access to so much as an aspirin to support their side of a vaccination in the USA debate I think it is pitiful.

We are also homing in on the defining border age wise. Despite being just a handful of years older than you, I was born before the vaccine was invented while you were born after. I also grew up in a high population density area, so avoiding was less likely for me. In regards to catching any of what were known in our day as "the routine childhood diseases" as an adult...had I reached adulthood having missed any of them I like to think that I would have gotten vaccinated, for sure. Of course, point of fact I did get vaccinated as an adult despite already having had everything because the navy does not muck about with childhood medical records, they just vaccinate everyone.