Apparently, vaccination is rape

[Timsup2nothin]

That absolutely should not remain unchallenged if the medical decisions they are making for their children are demonstrably harmful to the child. If a child gets leukemia and the parents decide to treat it with acupuncture or Gerson therapy coffee enemas instead of actual medical treatment, that should absolutely be challenged. Children have the right to not be harmed by their parents stupidity or neglect.

Because American style treatment for leukemia is just too grand an experience to miss out on? Screw that. American medicine operates on a single principle; "elongate life at all costs," which is not something that I personally have any respect for at all. If I get leukemia I plan to treat it with heroin and hiking...or possibly armed revolution, depending on the state of affairs at the time.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It's not absurd, but you can't make grand sweeping pronouncements about personal freedoms either way; instead you've got to look at the situation on a case by case basis.

In this case giving parents the power to not vaccinate their kids is not a good one, for several reasons. That on an individual on-the-surface basis it doesn't appear to be too much of a risk completely ignores the way that vaccination works on a grand scale.

Remember when I said there are well meaning people inflating the risks on each side?

 

[Wolfbeckett]

Because American style treatment for leukemia is just too grand an experience to miss out on? Screw that. American medicine operates on a single principle; "elongate life at all costs," which is not something that I personally have any respect for at all. If I get leukemia I plan to treat it with heroin and hiking...or possibly armed revolution, depending on the state of affairs at the time.

And that's fine for you, because you are a consenting adult, so you can make whatever choices you want for your own health.

Children can't. I can't believe I have to point out the difference here. Children cannot legally make their own decisions about their health. So "elongating life" is exactly what we should be doing, so that they can survive long enough to get to the age where they CAN make their own decisions.

As for the treatment for leukemia being too grand of an experience not to miss out on... I've actually had cancer. I underwent chemotherapy for 8 months. And yes, it sucked. But you know what didn't suck? The part where I didn't have cancer anymore. That part was pretty awesome.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

And that's fine for you, because you are a consenting adult, so you can make whatever choices you want for your own health.

Children can't. I can't believe I have to point out the difference here. Children cannot legally make their own decisions about their health. So "elongating life" is exactly what we should be doing, so that they can survive long enough to get to the age where they CAN make their own decisions.

As for the treatment for leukemia being too grand of an experience not to miss out on... I've actually had cancer. I underwent chemotherapy for 8 months. And yes, it sucked. But you know what didn't suck? The part where I didn't have cancer anymore. That part was pretty awesome.

I am genuinely happy for you, and grateful for the opportunity to debate with you, which could have been lost.

My dad underwent a year of cancer treatment, and also at the end of that misery he didn't have cancer. Of course he was still in his late sixties, in poor health with a combination of arthritis and Parkinson's pretty much immobilizing him and macular degeneration to the point he couldn't see much of anything, and abjectly miserable in his life...which went on for twenty more years before he mercifully expired. His appendix burst when he was 62 and every time I had an extended conversation with him after that at some point it got around to his appendix and "I wish your mother had just let me die."

While I in general agree that children have a right to not be victims of their parent's stupidity, I reject the idea that American medicine is so intelligent that it has a grip on all factors involved in life and death decisions...for anyone.

 

[Farm Boy]

You aren't arguing against medicine. You are arguing against a religioesque-worldview which builds "ought" judgements and subsequently calls them "is" observations. But I think you know this and are extending generosity in the spirit of discussion.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You aren't arguing against medicine. You are arguing against a religioesque-worldview which builds "ought" judgements and subsequently calls them "is" observations. But I think you know this and are extending generosity in the spirit of discussion.

I am always pleased that I understand what you have to say...especially when it is complimentary.

 

[warpus]

While I in general agree that children have a right to not be victims of their parent's stupidity, I reject the idea that American medicine is so intelligent that it has a grip on all factors involved in life and death decisions...for anyone.

If you don't trust the medical establishment to make these decisions, why would you trust far more uninformed parents to make them?

 

[onejayhawk]

If you don't trust the medical establishment to make these decisions, why would you trust far more uninformed parents to make them?

Supposedly, privacy is a Constitutional right.

J

 

[Wolfbeckett]

While I in general agree that children have a right to not be victims of their parent's stupidity, I reject the idea that American medicine is so intelligent that it has a grip on all factors involved in life and death decisions...for anyone.

Medicine is certainly not perfect. Nobody is saying that it is. But it is the best thing we have. If an adult wants to reject medicine outright and pursue alternatives, that is fine, that is their choice. Hell, you're talking to a guy who thinks that ALL recreational drugs should be legalized precisely because I believe that adults have the right to do whatever they want to their own bodies. But children do not have the legal ability to make these decisions, and I feel that our responsibility as a society is to do the best we can to ensure they grow up and get to the point where they can make those choices. And that means using the best techniques we have, which is western medicine. If the evidence showed that alternatives were equally effective then we could have a discussion about those instead, but they don't. Every single study that is done shows that the ONLY effective treatment we have for disease is western medicine, all other alternatives work at no better than placebo levels. So, uncomfortable as it sometimes is, as "treatment is as bad as the disease" as it sometimes can be, it's all we've got that actually WORKS, and that means we have a responsibility as a society to ensure that that's what we use for people who cannot, legally or physically, decide for themselves.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you don't trust the medical establishment to make these decisions, why would you trust far more uninformed parents to make them?

Because it is the parents who have to directly deal with the consequences of the decision, not "the medical establishment" or "society" or "the government." Plus, it really doesn't matter who I trust. If you are saying that kids should place their trust in society rather than their parents we have a much bigger problem than measles.

 

[Rashiminos]

If you don't trust the medical establishment to make these decisions, why would you trust far more uninformed parents to make them?

In part because we disagree on the assumption that all parents are so misinformed (and yes, the word is misinformed, not uninformed).

 

[warpus]

Because it is the parents who have to directly deal with the consequences of the decision, not "the medical establishment" or "society" or "the government." Plus, it really doesn't matter who I trust. If you are saying that kids should place their trust in society rather than their parents we have a much bigger problem than measles.

I didn't say society, I said the medical establishment. If your point is "We shouldn't trust your guys with some decisions, maybe they're wrong?", then your point can't also be "Let the parents deal with it" - because parents will undoubtedly be far less informed than the entire medical establishment, which includes professionals from all sorts of medical disciplines.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I didn't say society, I said the medical establishment. If your point is "We shouldn't trust your guys with some decisions, maybe they're wrong?", then your point can't also be "Let the parents deal with it" - because parents will undoubtedly be far less informed than the entire medical establishment, which includes professionals from all sorts of medical disciplines.

You can't have it both ways.

My point actually had nothing to do with whether they were right or wrong...maybe or otherwise. And I also included the medical establishment.

 

[Farm Boy]

But the worldview requires there be a right and a wrong. The clergy control the definitions.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

Dude, we're talking about medical issues. There IS a right and wrong. Things that actually work are right. Things that do not work are wrong. This is an objectively measurable thing. Does the person's condition improve, Y/N? This isn't some subjective belief about nebulous concepts. Of course, people who are legally considered to be consenting adults have the right to choose what does not work. If they want to treat themselves with arsenic next time they get the flu because they read on the Internet that it's effective that is their prerogative as adults. But don't try to tell me that their treatment is just as "right" as the medical methodology for treating the flu.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Dude, we're talking about medical issues. There IS a right and wrong. Things that actually work are right. Things that do not work are wrong. This is an objectively measurable thing. Does the person's condition improve, Y/N? This isn't some subjective belief about nebulous concepts. Of course, people who are legally considered to be consenting adults have the right to choose what does not work. If they want to treat themselves with arsenic next time they get the flu because they read on the Internet that it's effective that is their prerogative as adults. But don't try to tell me that their treatment is just as "right" as the medical methodology for treating the flu.

So, go back to my dad. Looking back over 26 years of misery that came afterwards was the treatment of his burst appendix really right, or just medically correct?

Medically correct is objectively measurable. Right is not.

 

[Rashiminos]

Dude, we're talking about medical issues. There IS a right and wrong. Things that actually work are right. Things that do not work are wrong. This is an objectively measurable thing. But don't try to tell me that their treatment is just as right as the medical methodology for treating the flu.

What would your objection be?

 

[warpus]

My point actually had nothing to do with whether they were right or wrong...maybe or otherwise. And I also included the medical establishment.

My point is just that if the medical establishment can't be trusted to make these decisions, then neither can any set of parents.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

So, go back to my dad. Looking back over 26 years of misery that came afterwards was the treatment of his burst appendix really right, or just medically correct?

Medically correct is objectively measurable. Right is not.

Again, I have already stated earlier in the thread, on this same page no less, that medicine is not perfect. Individual cases of patients can have differing results, medicine does not know everything, and even that which we do know for sure is administered by humans, and humans make mistakes. But taken over the whole population, the truth is undeniable. Those who embrace western medicine have longer and better lives than those who do not. For every person I can name that has had their life worsened by western medicine, I can name 20 that have had their life improved by it, not least of which is myself.

 

[Rashiminos]

My point is just that if the medical establishment can't be trusted to make these decisions, then neither can any set of parents.

I'm sure you can restate that in a way that's less of an appeal to authority.