Apparently, vaccination is rape

[Evie]

A rock is not living and yet wouldn't typically be defined as dead either.

Living/dead is not necessarily a binary "one or the other" choice.

(That said, I tend to agree fetus are living beings. Just not persons.)

 

[hobbsyoyo]

A woman can be pro-choice and still not want the fetus inside her to die from measles.


Of course it's much more fun to shoehorn this all into an abortion thread. We've been lacking those of late.

 

[Borachio]

Weeeeell.

What can I say?

Yes, you're quite right a rock isn't described as "dead".

I remember when I was about six reading a book about "stuff" in primary school. The idea went that everything can be divided up into living things, dead things, and never alive things.

But in terms of human fetuses I can't say I find this very relevant, interesting though it may be.

 

[Evie]

Well, of course. I'm not implying otherwise. Heck,. therE's no contradiction between thinking a fetus is not (yet) a person and still not wanting it to die.

Boracchio, while yes, in that classification fetuses would be alive, you're missing the forest for the tree in the original post. the point isn't that fetuses are alive (or not); the point is that the exact nature of fetuses is the entire crux of the abortion debate, hardly a settled question, and pretending (like Onejayhawk is doing) that liberals are "inconsistent" because they apply different rules to what (in their reading) are entirely different scenarios is rather dishonest.

The same, of course, as the reverse claim. Trying to judge conservatives consistency in the matter has to start with interpreting their views against abortions from the point of view of the fetus being a person.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I think more people are afraid not of how effective the anti-vax movement has been to this point but how fast it's growing, and the future consequences of a rapid decline in vaccination rate.

Thing is that the anti-vax fad, by all indications, has already peaked. In areas with the lowest vaccination rates (where the "crazies" had their biggest influence) they have started rising rapidly back towards normal.

We actually eliminated measles temporally in the United States in the 90s IIRC. Because of the decline in mandatory vaccinations this disease where we had gone something like a full decade without a single kid exposed to it is now a) here again at all, and b) outbreaks are getting worse rapidly. It's really really scary to think if trends continue and herd immunity collapses how much worse things can get.

Getting worse rapidly? The "huge OMG outbreak" of 2014 broke a hundred cases nationwide...barely.

Think about what yearly large outbreaks of once virtually eliminated diseases such as measles and whooping cough mean. Immunodeficient people are suddenly exposed from all sides, even healthy vaccinated people still have a low chance of getting them because vaccines fail. Even if things like measles and whooping cough don't kill many people it easily will cost billions extra on our already massive healthcare spending.

I don't like to go all fear monger but most people are way way too young (including myself) to understand what used to be a fairly common occurrence watching a loved one dieing from a completely preventable disease like measles. Not to mention what would happen if Polio which sadly still exists in various Islamic counties came back to the Western World.

This is a link to Roald Dahl's essay he wrote in 1988 abut his daughter dieing to measles now that a vaccine was readily available.

"Watching a loved one die of measles" was never a common occurrence for anyone in the US who is still alive. Maybe a couple hundred years ago when fevers were something you just had to sweat your way through, or maybe get treated with leeches or whatever. But in the 1950s, which is the last full decade before the vaccine, there would be millions of cases every year and only a couple hundred deaths.

By the way the vaccine is a multi billion dollar industry, so approaching the question from the financial angle is edgy territory best avoided. I got the mumps and both kinds of measles as a kid and the total cost of treatment was less than the cost of one dose of the vaccine. Of course aspirin was cheaper back then.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

Thing is that the anti-vax fad, by all indications, has already peaked. In areas with the lowest vaccination rates (where the "crazies" had their biggest influence) they have started rising rapidly back towards normal.

And don't you think that might be, at least in part, because people loudly and vehemently spoke out against the antivaxxers and called them nuts?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

And don't you think that might be, at least in part, because people loudly and vehemently spoke out against the antivaxxers and called them nuts?

Sure. I'm all for calling them nuts. If there was one here I would happily call them a nut.

Calling someone a nut for inflating a negligible risk into a call for drastic action is right up my alley. You may have noticed that.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Thing is that the anti-vax fad, by all indications, has already peaked. In areas with the lowest vaccination rates (where the "crazies" had their biggest influence) they have started rising rapidly back towards normal.

You wouldn't know it, if you spent any time on Care2. There are a couple of vaccine threads there that are each several thousand posts long, and most of those posts are by anti-vaccine... zealots is the only word I can use to describe them. I wish I had a dollar for every time I was accused of "being a paid shill for 'Big Pharma'" or told to use 'essential oils' (whatever those are) instead of relying on modern science that I know works for me. I really would have a nice sum of money. "Big Pharma" on the other hand has apparently forgotten that I work for them, as they haven't paid so much as a counterfeit penny. Oh, and apparently vaccination is a religion, and I am one of its priestesses.

Getting worse rapidly? The "huge OMG outbreak" of 2014 broke a hundred cases nationwide...barely.

FYI: The US is not the entire world. We had measles outbreaks here in Canada, too, in several regions that were not close together, but all had pockets of anti-vaccine adherents, none of whom opted out of vaccinations for reasons that made any sense (ie. the vaccine would be harmful or potentially fatal).

By the way the vaccine is a multi billion dollar industry, so approaching the question from the financial angle is edgy territory best avoided. I got the mumps and both kinds of measles as a kid and the total cost of treatment was less than the cost of one dose of the vaccine. Of course aspirin was cheaper back then.

There is a considerable difference between getting mumps as a kid and as an adult.

 

[Bootstoots]

Moderator Action: Please take abortion discussions to another thread, or make another thread if you prefer.

 

[Wolfbeckett]

You wouldn't know it, if you spent any time on Care2. There are a couple of vaccine threads there that are each several thousand posts long, and most of those posts are by anti-vaccine... zealots is the only word I can use to describe them. I wish I had a dollar for every time I was accused of "being a paid shill for 'Big Pharma'" or told to use 'essential oils' (whatever those are) instead of relying on modern science that I know works for me. I really would have a nice sum of money. "Big Pharma" on the other hand has apparently forgotten that I work for them, as they haven't paid so much as a counterfeit penny. Oh, and apparently vaccination is a religion, and I am one of its priestesses.

Listen, it's unfair to criticize those people for calling you a big pharma shill. The shill gambit is almost all they have left!

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You wouldn't know it, if you spent any time on Care2. There are a couple of vaccine threads there that are each several thousand posts long, and most of those posts are by anti-vaccine... zealots is the only word I can use to describe them. I wish I had a dollar for every time I was accused of "being a paid shill for 'Big Pharma'" or told to use 'essential oils' (whatever those are) instead of relying on modern science that I know works for me. I really would have a nice sum of money. "Big Pharma" on the other hand has apparently forgotten that I work for them, as they haven't paid so much as a counterfeit penny. Oh, and apparently vaccination is a religion, and I am one of its priestesses.

Even if I spent time on Care2 I would still know it, because no matter what is said on...I assume some sort of forum?...the actual numbers are available from county health departments. Vaccination rates are back to just slightly below average in the Malibu, Hollywood, et al areas that led the way in the anti-vax movement. The fad's peaked and winding towards an ignoble end...no gulags required.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Even if I spent time on Care2 I would still know it, because no matter what is said on...I assume some sort of forum?...the actual numbers are available from county health departments. Vaccination rates are back to just slightly below average in the Malibu, Hollywood, et al areas that led the way in the anti-vax movement. The fad's peaked and winding towards an ignoble end...no gulags required.

It's a "social activism" site that I used to support but no longer do, for a variety of reasons that actually don't have to do with this particular topic.

BTW, please remind me where I advocated "gulags." It's possible that I might have said something about that but don't recall (I'm battling a bad cold right now and can't think as clearly as normal).

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It's a "social activism" site that I used to support but no longer do, for a variety of reasons that actually don't have to do with this particular topic.

BTW, please remind me where I advocated "gulags." It's possible that I might have said something about that but don't recall (I'm battling a bad cold right now and can't think as clearly as normal).

Probably wasn't you, so no worries. Point of fact it was probably me that used the word gulag to shorthand the whole "lock up all the unvaccinated somewhere to keep the rest of us safe" line of conversation.

 

[classical_hero]

A rock is not living and yet wouldn't typically be defined as dead either.

Living/dead is not necessarily a binary "one or the other" choice.

(That said, I tend to agree fetus are living beings. Just not persons.)

Just like how slave weren't "persons"?

 

[aelf]

Just like how slave weren't "persons"?

Where, and are you sure?

 

[jackelgull]

Just like how slave weren't "persons"?

Please just let the abortion debate on this thread die.

 

[onejayhawk]

Please just let the abortion debate on this thread die.

The law surrounding abortion is central to the issue. You would have to kill the whole thread.

J

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: Please take abortion discussions to another thread, or make another thread if you prefer.

Ahem.

 

[Farm Boy]

Muh body muh choice, get the gubbernmint out of muh bedroom and muh syringes.

 

[poom3619]

and there are people who can't get vaccinated, and there are people who don't want to get vaccinated.
Latter group alive, don't sure about former one.