Appeasement in the front end of the cycle (of history repeating itself again)

[Lord of Elves]

What are you talking about?

I'm not certain. Who is it that runs the evil shadow empire?

Yeah, the entire Western media is owned by corporate interests that parrot everything NATO wants them to say.

We are in Orwell's 1984.

The fact that you are freely able to say as much ought to be an indicator that the evil American fatcat machine has yet to assemble a Ministry of Love.

 

[Neomega]

I'm not certain. Who is it that runs the evil shadow empire?

I didn't say anything like that. You did.

But to be more simple, banks do. Sort of. I don't have time to explain everything, but history has always shown no matter how deadly and terrible a war, there is always a group of people who come out smelling like roses, and richer than ever before.

Somebody is always making a buck. And at that level, it isn't just money. It is power. It is shaping the world in your image of great. Making a legacy for yourself or your family.

The fact that you are freely able to say as much ought to be an indicator that the evil American fatcat machine has yet to assemble a Ministry of Love.

Bull. I can't say whatever I want. Awlaki, an American citizen was killed by a predator drone missile for preaching Anti-American sermons, (and his son too).

And everything I write here is being recorded, and will force me into hiding soon enough. Just like Brandon Raub, who was forcibly institutionalized for his writings on Facebook.

But really, and I don't know how many times I have to say this:

IT IS WONDERFUL BEING A CITIZEN OF THE EMPIRE

I am not writing scathing screeds for my own sake. I know self-centered westerners can't really fathom caring about another human being, simply because they are human.... ...but yes, I care because I cant stand all these innocent people being killed for lies and propaganda and profit.

I AM SICK OF AMERICA/NATO MURDERING WITH IMPUNITY

And no, I am no longer writing to change minds. I am simply writing, why, when a nuclear bomb goes off in London or Trenton, you will not see me crying, you will see me telling you... "AMERICA DESERVES THE HELL IT WILL BURN IN"

 

[bugwar]

I AM SICK OF AMERICA/NATO MURDERING WITH IMPUNITY

You think we are killing with impunity now, just wait till we arm the ground droids.




Link to video.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Bull. I can't say whatever I want. Awlaki, an American citizen was killed by a predator drone missile for preaching Anti-American sermons, (and his son too).

Considering he was involved in terrorist activity against his own country, I think his American citizenship only makes his crimes more heinous. Treason's bad, mmkay.

And everything I write here is being recorded, and will force me into hiding soon enough. Just like Brandon Raub, who was forcibly institutionalized for his writings on Facebook.

Methinks thou doth protest too much.

I am not writing scathing screeds for my own sake. I know self-centered westerners can't really fathom caring about another human being, simply because they are human.... ...but yes, I care because I cant stand all these innocent people being killed for lies and propaganda and profit.

I AM SICK OF AMERICA/NATO MURDERING WITH IMPUNITY

And no, I am no longer writing to change minds. I am simply writing, why, when a nuclear bomb goes off in London or Trenton, you will not see me crying, you will see me telling you... "AMERICA DESERVES THE HELL IT WILL BURN IN"

Hopefully you will not find it difficult to understand that I derive hypocrisy from the idea that the suffering of America's enemies is deplorable, but the thermonuclear mass murder of Americans/their allies/(why London/Trenton?) is not only acceptable but deserved, and something to anticipate. Though I suppose that free speech makes you entitled to agitate for the deaths of millions if you do so peaceably.

 

[GhostWriter16]

I didn't say anything like that. You did.

But to be more simple, banks do. Sort of. I don't have time to explain everything, but history has always shown no matter how deadly and terrible a war, there is always a group of people who come out smelling like roses, and richer than ever before.

Somebody is always making a buck. And at that level, it isn't just money. It is power. It is shaping the world in your image of great. Making a legacy for yourself or your family.




Bull. I can't say whatever I want. Awlaki, an American citizen was killed by a predator drone missile for preaching Anti-American sermons, (and his son too).

And everything I write here is being recorded, and will force me into hiding soon enough. Just like Brandon Raub, who was forcibly institutionalized for his writings on Facebook.

But really, and I don't know how many times I have to say this:

IT IS WONDERFUL BEING A CITIZEN OF THE EMPIRE

I am not writing scathing screeds for my own sake. I know self-centered westerners can't really fathom caring about another human being, simply because they are human.... ...but yes, I care because I cant stand all these innocent people being killed for lies and propaganda and profit.

I AM SICK OF AMERICA/NATO MURDERING WITH IMPUNITY

And no, I am no longer writing to change minds. I am simply writing, why, when a nuclear bomb goes off in London or Trenton, you will not see me crying, you will see me telling you... "AMERICA DESERVES THE HELL IT WILL BURN IN"

OK, firstly, the American government is not the American people. You seem to act like we all approve of the actions of our governnment.

Secondly, although we have killed a few people that we should not have, its not like we are murdering people constantly.

And I'm sure you won't be driven into hiding by those posts.

Considering he was involved in terrorist activity against his own country, I think his American citizenship only makes his crimes more heinous. Treason's bad, mmkay.

"Treason" is a word with a whacked connotation. Treason can both be the worst evil and the greatest good, depending on against whom, and why, it is executed. The fact of the matter is that 90+ percent of people say "Treason's bad, mmkay" is not a good thing.

I'm not apporving of what this guy did, but I don't give a crap whether he was an American citizen or not.

Hopefully you will not find it difficult to understand that I derive hypocrisy from the idea that the suffering of America's enemies is deplorable, but the thermonuclear mass murder of Americans/their allies/(why London/Trenton?) is not only acceptable but deserved, and something to anticipate. Though I suppose that free speech makes you entitled to agitate for the deaths of millions if you do so peaceably.

Yes, he absolutely has a right to do so. I also don't agree with him at all on this topic.

We can admit America's flaws, and they are many, without use of hyperbole.

 

[Neomega]

Considering he was involved in terrorist activity against his own country, I think his American citizenship only makes his crimes more heinous. Treason's bad, mmkay.

I missed the trial to determine he was involved in terroristic activities. Did he have one? And his son too? Or do we just trust the NSA and CIA on that one?

Hopefully you will not find it difficult to understand that I derive hypocrisy from the idea that the suffering of America's enemies is deplorable, but the thermonuclear mass murder of Americans/their allies/(why London/Trenton?) is not only acceptable but deserved, and something to anticipate.

There is no hypocrisy.

The muslims of the world do not deserve the hell being rained down upon them. They are not going around and bombing everything they can, no matter how much the media blows up every little attack, it is nothing numerically compared to the numbers of murders America and NATO is committing.

The Americans and NATO countries are killing on a massive scale worldwide, and propping up dictators who rob their people for the benefit of themselves and the corporations within them. And in those dictatorships, there are no rights.

Perhaps knowing I fully support the decision to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Dresden would help clear it up for you?

Aggressor nations must be put down like the rabid dogs they are, and mercilessly, or they will continue to murder.

Though I suppose that free speech makes you entitled to agitate for the deaths of millions if you do so peaceably.

Oh, I'm agitating for it now?

 

[Neomega]

OK, firstly, the American government is not the American people. You seem to act like we all approve of the actions of our governnment.

Secondly, although we have killed a few people that we should not have, its not like we are murdering people constantly.

Yes, America is murdering people constantly.
And your blindness to it is tacit approval of your government to continue to do it.
The american government is the American people. A seething mass of commercial-brained zombies who think that because they are given the choice between Coke and Pepsi, or democrat or republican, that they somehow have a say in the important functions of government. But they don't because they are fed information that leads them to the conclusion that war is the answer.

And I'm sure you won't be driven into hiding by those posts.

Give it time.
http://communities.washingtontimes..../judge-orders-brandon-raub-released-hospital/

 

[Lord of Elves]

I missed the trial to determine he was involved in terroristic activities. Did he have one? And his son too? Or do we just trust the NSA and CIA on that one?

Do we need a trial to acknowledge facts? Did George III ever receive a trial for all the wrongs we seem to agree he committed against the American colonies? Did we have a trial for those who sank the U.S.S. Maine? The Lusitania? No, even though I do not always agree with it, I trust the United States government. Despite what you may think, we are not yet living in Airstrip One.

Perhaps knowing I fully support the decision to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Dresden would help clear it up for you?

Yes, and for the record, despite our disagreement, I appreciate your ideological consistency.

Oh, I'm agitating for it now?

Well, it does sort of read that way, doesn't it?

Aggressor nations must be put down like the rabid dogs they are, and mercilessly, or they will continue to murder.

(emphasis mine)

 

[GhostWriter16]

Do we need a trial to acknowledge facts? Did George III ever receive a trial for all the wrongs we seem to agree he committed against the American colonies? Did we have a trial for those who sank the U.S.S. Maine? The Lusitania? No, even though I do not always agree with it, I trust the United States government. Despite what you may think, we are not yet living in Airstrip One.

Did George III get killed for what he did?

I'm not 100% agreeing with you, I'm actually somewhere in between the two of you, but there is a difference between declaring independence (Which IMO we don't need a "Reason" to do anyway, as far as I'm concerned NYS should be able to pull out of the US for "Reasons" right now if it wants to) and killing people. There's also a difference between killing armed people, and killing unarmed people.

For the record, collateral damage =/= murder. If you want to fight a war, you've got to win, whatever it takes. Which is also part of the reason I prefer trying to avoid war as much as possible (The other reason is that we've developed a nasty tradition that during war the government can do whatever it wants to restrict the freedoms of its people, however unconstitutional.)

I don't see why you'd trust ANY government. We're far from the worst, but we still shouldn't trust our government. EVER. When you trust them, that's when they turn against you, as they already have in many respects.

 

[Neomega]

I trust the United States government.

because of how truthful they have been about past actions?

For the record, collateral damage =/= murder.

All casualties of an unjust war are murder, soldier and civilian alike. And the murderer is the nation that starts the unjust war... ...soldier and civilian alike.

 

[Lord of Elves]

because of how truthful they have been about past actions?

Because question of authority for question of authority's sake is overwrought, breeds a conspiratorial atmosphere that doesn't do anything for actual intellectual inquiry (but how can we be sure the alien Nazis didn't fake the moon landing?), and flies in the face of good logic (never assume a conspiracy when incompetence can just as easily explain events).

 

[bugwar]

All casualties of an unjust war are murder, soldier and civilian alike. And the murderer is the nation that starts the unjust war... ...soldier and civilian alike.

And when the murderer is not a nation?
And hides out in lands that do not want the murderer punished?
And the governments of those lands declare they have no idea where the murderer is?

What is a victimized nation to do?

Well, if they are European, they suck it up. After all, the dead are only their citizens.
If they are American, ... Send in the droids!

 

[GhostWriter16]

All casualties of an unjust war are murder, soldier and civilian alike. And the murderer is the nation that starts the unjust war... ...soldier and civilian alike.

I think this is a fundamentally better argument than most other heavily liberal/libertarian arguments, some of which have stated that ALL civilian casualties are murder, even if that will ultimately save more lives in the long run. I think your position is better, and fundamentally correct, however, I think there's some room for debate for what is an "Unjust" war. A war can be "Just" without being advisable, and there are varying degrees of just.

You could argue that practically any wars that America has entered into are "Just" based on certain criteria, but my personal criteria only takes three of them as valid. Even so, I don't necessarily consider the Presidents involved in the other wars to be murderers.

 

[Neomega]

Because question of authority for question of authority's sake is overwrought, breeds a conspiratorial atmosphere that doesn't do anything for actual intellectual inquiry (but how can we be sure the alien Nazis didn't fake the moon landing?), and flies in the face of good logic (never assume a conspiracy when incompetence can just as easily explain events).

wait...

So the united States government lies, lies, lies and lies some more, especially when it comes to its foreign policy and intentions.

And you have the nerve to accuse me of questioning their integrity and authority for the sake of questioning authority? Or say that I am only saying all this to be a rebel? What the hell is wrong with you people? Where is your cognitive disconnect? Is it possible I don't trust the US government because it lies all the time? is that possible? Or does it make you and your personal belief system feel better to wave it off as some kind of desire to defy authority?

I guess I'll have to say it again, because I was not clear last time:

I am not writing all this to get chicks. I am not writing all this to wow people with my rebel attitude. I am not writing this to make friends on the interent.

I AM WRITING WHAT I WRITE BECAUSE AMERICA/NATO WILL NOT STOP KILLING PEOPLE, AND IT NEEDS TO BE CALLED OUT FOR IT. Somebody has to say something, and not mince words.

Is that clear enough for you? You want to try and lay more of your pop-psychological crap on me so you can discredit it with your oh so logical mind?
Then you throw in some bull about what I am talking about is conspiracy theory!? Some moon-landing mockery? Do you think I find your style in any way refined or logical? Was that your honest attempt at "intellectual inquiry"?

What the hell is wrong with you?

I know. You trust the American government, because it is your god. Nationalism is your religion. It is a belief. In god you trust. You believe you live in the land of the free, even if it was based on slavery. You believe it is the home of the brave, even if it was conquered by broken treaties.

and flies in the face of good logic

You know what else flies in the face of good logic?

Being lied to time, and time, and time again by someone, but still trusting them. That flies in the face of good logic...

...but you, who claims to have good logic, do just that.

And when the murderer is not a nation?
And hides out in lands that do not want the murderer punished?
And the governments of those lands declare they have no idea where the murderer is?

What is a victimized nation to do?

Well, if they are European, they suck it up. After all, the dead are only their citizens.
If they are American, ... Send in the droids!

Oh, this all started with OBL and his measly 3000 killed by muslims living in America?

Try hundreds of thousands killed in Iraq. That's where this started, well, we can go back even further to American meddlesome policies, like the founding of the UN and the first to recognize Israel, and continued and unquestioning support of the murderous, thieving religiously fanatical regime occupying Palestine.

Poor poor victim America. Murderin' robbin' and rapin' the middle east for decades, and suddenly, when they get a tiny taste of of their own poop they have been dropping on everyone, they go ape, and murder everyone in the room.

And even if Afghanistan was simply about dismantling the great threat al-queada, why didn't congress declare war, and make it official? Why didn't we send in everything we had? If al-queada was such a great threat, why the half-measures to stop them?
And what the hell did Iraq have to do with it?

Because it never was about al-queada.

No, America's murder in the middle east did not start after 9/11/01.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Not going to quotewar with you because your post was too lengthy for it, but I'll attempt to address the primary/most egregious parts anyway. First off, as much as you'd appreciate me to stop peddling what you apparently believe is to be pop-psychological babble, I'd appreciate you didn't put words in my mouth. I don't hold on to any fallacy-ridden dream that America is the "land of the free, home of the brave" etc, etc, because whatever nationalist tendencies I might profess to, I'm not an American exceptionalist. There is nothing that makes the United States different from any other country on Earth that is any more spiritual or culturally-superficial than hard, cold, geopolitical fact. I won't tell you that we're morally-superior because we're American, or because we're Christian, or any other reason other than that we (despite what you claim) generally don't make a habit of openly killing innocents in order to settle grudges, which is perhaps more than one can say for Islamic extremist organizations (note: organizations, not governments).

What you have said (that the United States government is complicit as the leader of some kind of global international conspiracy orchestrated by American and European bankers for the benefit of their investments) is in fact a conspiracy theory. Sure, the truth runs something along those lines. National governments still act largely in the best interests of their private sector, to ensure their economic interests are protected, to ensure they can export and import to the benefit of their economy and sometimes to the detriment of their opponents, but it is in fact a conspiracy theory to believe that there is a conspiracy of such persons acting in planned and uniform conference.

How is the fact that the United States continues to kill people any different from the fact that Islamist militants/psychotic mass murderers/Tamil insurgents/central African religious terrorist groups/anyone else kills people? Why not decry their crimes as well? It is a sad situation. In any war both sides are guilty of killing. In this case however, the nature of the killings of terrorist organizations make them "more guilty".

Finally, I do not believe it is within the capability of the United States government to lie on the scale you accuse it of doing so. Certainly, elements within it have tried, but it's never turned out quite so well. See Watergate for an example. Frankly, I regard what you have said as being sensational, overwrought and not very grounded in reality, but I don't feel the need to attribute it to any kind of psychological incapability on your part, if that's the implication you're making.

 

[Neomega]

other than that we (despite what you claim) generally don't make a habit of openly killing innocents in order to settle grudges, which is perhaps more than one can say for Islamic extremist organizations (note: organizations, not governments).

Cognitive dissonance.

What you have said (that the United States government is complicit as the leader of some kind of global international conspiracy orchestrated by American and European bankers for the benefit of their investments) is in fact a conspiracy theory. Sure, the truth runs something along those lines. National governments still act largely in the best interests of their private sector, to ensure their economic interests are protected, to ensure they can export and import to the benefit of their economy and sometimes to the detriment of their opponents, but it is in fact a conspiracy theory to believe that there is a conspiracy of such persons acting in planned and uniform conference.

I never said there was a conspiracy. You said that. You are the one that wants to peg me in that hole. I said it was too complicated to write out here. (remember?) People act in their own self interest. Those with power strive to keep it and acquire more, and they use the United States government and its armed forces as their tool.

How is the fact that the United States continues to kill people any different from the fact that Islamist militants/psychotic mass murderers/Tamil insurgents/central African religious terrorist groups/anyone else kills people?

Because when America does it, everyone around here nods their heads and pats themselves on the back, as if America's actions are for goodness and justice.

It is a sad situation. In any war both sides are guilty of killing. In this case however, the nature of the killings of terrorist organizations make them "more guilty".

Because a car bomb is worse than a predator drone missile? Because numerically speaking, America and NATO is far more guilty, hundreds of times more.

I know, the news has a way of making the killing of Chris Stevens look so much more horrible than that of Ghaddafi, but if you look at it from a neutral point of view, Ghaddafi was in his own country, and Stevens was an ambasador of the invaders.

I know, the media always makes one death looks worse than the other, and that is simply a propaganda trick.

Finally, I do not believe.....

Yes, I know. You do not believe, because your nation is your god.

it is within the capability of the United States government to lie on the scale you accuse it of doing so.

Oh, you don't think the US government would lie about it's intentions when going to war? You think Iraq was about democracy and WMD's and al queada?

What about tossing babies from incubators? Wasn't that a BIG LIE?

What about "we know where they are" regarding WMD's, BIG LIE.
What about the Maine and Luisitania? You mentioned them for a reason, surely you are aware of the lies associated with them.


What scale of lying of the government, that I am supposedly representing, do you find so preposterous?

Let's play a game:

Would you believe the United States Government would oversee and be aware of the massacre of hundreds of thousands of unarmed civilians in the 20th century, (over the course of a few months), and then conspire with an allied government to blame the massacre on an enemy. For fifty years, The US government would continue to lie that it was actually the enemy government that committed the massacre, and not the U.S. ally.

Answer if you believe the United States Government would do such a thing.

Because you know, that I am going to link you to this event I am talking about, which was exposed in 2008 as a deal between two hostile countries to bring the truth out so they can achieve peace.

So I know you are now rolling your eyes, and knowing that, yes, the US government lied about a massacre of hundreds of thousands of people, and said the enemy did it, when in fact it was an ally, many times, under the watch of US soldiers... ...who funnily, NEVER SAID ANYTHING. (you know, you hear about, how can so many people keep quiet in such a grand conspiracy.... ...well, maybe you need to ask some of the American soldiers pictured standing around, observing the massacres, if they are still alive today)

So yes, the United States government can lie on an unimaginable grand scale, especially when it comes to the murders, or permission to commit murders of non-citizens.

Ready to become a national atheist yet? Or do you still believe your government would never lie like that?

 

[Lord of Elves]

Yes, I know. You do not believe, because your nation is your god.

I use the phrase "I do not believe" because I hesitate to say that something cannot, could not, and never could be the case. That seems to be the primary difference between the predication of our opinions.

Do you believe the United States Government would oversee and be aware of the massacre of hundreds of thousands of unarmed civilians in the 20th century, and then conspire with an allied government to blame the massacre on an enemy... and for fifty years, would continue to lie that it was actually the enemy government that committed the massacre, and not the ally?

Answer if you believe the United States Government would do such a thing.

Because you know, that I am going to link you to this event I am talking about, which was exposed in 2008 as a deal between to hostile countries to bring the truth out so they can achieve peace.

So I know you are now rolling your eyes, and knowing that, yes, the US government lied about a massacre of hundreds of thousands of people, and said the enemy did it, when in fact it was an ally, many times, under the watch of US soldiers... ...who funnily, NEVER SAID ANYTHING. (you know, you hear about, how can so many people keep quiet in such a grand conspiracy.... ...well, maybe you need to ask some of the American soldiers pictured standing around, observing the massacres, if they are still alive today)

I'm not going to make a judgment on this inscrutable thing, this event you keep referring to, because I really have no idea what you're talking about. I'd have to know the circumstances. Yes, the United States government has lied to other nations, most countries have at some time in their history. Rarely are governments capable of lying to their citizens so baldfacely as they do to other governments, and even that is much more difficult now than it has been in the past. What are you talking about?

 

[Thlayli]

I know, the news has a way of making the killing of Chris Stevens look so much more horrible than that of Ghaddafi, but if you look at it from a neutral point of view, Ghaddafi was in his own country, and Stevens was an ambasador of the invaders.

Your "neutral point of view" seems to have been outpaced by events, such as the recent pro-American demonstrations in Benghazi.

But telling you you're living in a special sort of internet wackjob la-la land won't necessarily help you climb out of the basement and blinking, stare into the sun. I'm still going to try though.

 

[JohnRM]

When Islamic societies get the bomb they will use it as a shield and step up their use of proxies.

I have to strongly agree with MC on this point. This is what I fear most if Iran were to obtain nuclear weapons.

What world are you living on?
It's not hard to get NATO countries to start bombing.
When have they ever vetoed America's demands to bomb?

And it's not America's NATO, it's just NATO period, the armed wing of the international bankers and corporations. "American" interests don't even matter anymore. If they did, we would still have manufacturing jobs here.

Libya, 1986

I missed the trial to determine he was involved in terroristic activities. Did he have one? And his son too? Or do we just trust the NSA and CIA on that one?

The problem with that is that if you accept that American citizenship is protection from the use of force when that citizen is in a foreign country and ostensibly carrying out terrorist plots against the US, then it becomes extremely beneficial for terrorist groups to both begin recruiting US citizens to their cause and/or plant sleepers in the US, having them obtain citizenship. If the US complies with your wishes, terrorist groups could plant US citizens across their bases all over the world and begin to act with impunity, because we can't kill our own, on the battlefield.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that.

 

[Neomega]

I'm not going to make a judgment on this inscrutable thing, this event you keep referring to, because I really have no idea what you're talking about. I'd have to know the circumstances. Yes, the United States government has lied to other nations, most countries have at some time in their history. Rarely are governments capable of lying to their citizens so baldfacely as they do to other governments, and even that is much more difficult now than it has been in the past. What are you talking about?

Why I was hoping you would ask, Lord of Elves. I am speaking of none other than the Bodo League Massacre (hey, why didn't the news make a big deal about this when it was revealed in 2008, I wonder... ...this was really big news, wasn't it? The US government lying about hundreds of thousands of south Koreans massacred by South Koreans, and blaming it on North Korea... no, no, not our government...

Wait, it's not possible, no way they can cover that up for 50 years is there? Well, they did somehow. I guess when you have one of the most sophisticated police state apparatuses in the world, you can pull of some hefty magic tricks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre

read it and weep. Time to change what you "believe" about your government.