Apple/other companies soft-ban on confederate flag in games?

[Kyriakos]

http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/25/8845909/apple-app-store-games-confederate-flag

Apple has removed Civil War games from the App Store featuring the Confederate flag, according to a report from Touch Arcade. Ultimate General: Gettysburg and the Civil War games by developer Hunted Cow no longer appear for sale. A statement from a developer of Ultimate General confirms that the studio's game was removed by Apple.

Apple isn't the only company to pull merchandise featuring the Confederate flag. Following the tragic shooting at Charleston's Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, a movement has called for the removal of the Confederate flag from the South Carolina capital building and a re-evaluation of the nation's relationship with the symbol of the Confederate army. In response, Amazon and eBay have removed or banned Confederate flag merchandise, and Warner Bros. has scrapped plans for toys featuring the banner.

Apple's decision is likely to draw more controversy. Removing games in which the flag plays a historical role is different than forbidding the sale of the flag itself. And Apple has already acquired a reputation for its ham-fisted curation, banning games from the App Store featuring nudity and political statements.

Apple has been contacted for comment on the decision to pull these games, and whether additional games or films featuring the Confederate flag will be removed.

*

In a move -in theory- tied to reactions following the shooting of 9 people in a church, Apple (out of the kindness of its heart) decided to make a stand and ban Gettysburg. (and other software that feature the Confederate states flag).

Anyway, tabooing that flag is not really going to help with any issue, ie racism or violence, let alone mass shootings. And re games, how else would a game about the American civil war present the Confederacy if not by using its flag?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Anyway, tabooing that flag is not really going to help with any issue, ie racism or violence, let alone mass shootings. And re games, how else would a game about the American civil war present the Confederacy if not by using its flag?

You can say the same things about the swastika and World War II (and events leading up to it). Sometimes a symbol comes to represent something so abhorrent to subsequent generations that the symbol is seen as immoral.

Ask any SCA herald if swastikas are permitted in SCA heraldry. They aren't. Even though the swastika (any variety) was historically and heraldically correct within the time frame covered by the Society for Creative Anachronism (600-1600 AD), nobody is allowed to use it or any variant, due to what it represents in our modern society.

Is banning the use of the Confederate flag in a game going to lessen the issues associated with modern racism? Probably not - in fact, some gamers may possibly see that as even more of an excuse to feel/promote hate. And we've still got anti-Semitism nowadays despite the swastika ban/taboo.

My feeling about these symbols is that they represent something immoral and abhorrent. Allow them to be displayed in museums along with explanations of their history, what they represent, and why they're no longer allowed. Write about them in history books. But as the swastika has no place in our regular public lives, it looks like some people are beginning to feel that way about the Confederate flag.

 

[warpus]

I don't mind the symbol not being used in official capacity by governments, but banning games because the symbol appears in one is stupid.

This is a historical symbol and as such belongs in a game about.. history.

When I'm shooting up Nazis in a video game about WW2, I want to see swastikas, and I want to see them burn.

 

[Arakhor]

But that's hardly a game about history, rather a game tangentially involving history. There is, after all, a legal reason why a certain Herr Hitler never appears in Paradox's Hearts of Iron games.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You can say the same things about the swastika and World War II (and events leading up to it).

Co-opting millennia of history of religious association to only or even just primarily associate the swastika symbol with Nazism is an extreme negative bias, that is unshared by billions of people today. The Nazi flag specifically would carry more reasonable associations with Nazism.

Nevertheless, hiding those symbols in a historical setting is different from refusing to use them to represent those ideals today. I understand the reason for doing it, but it isn't a good reason.

 

[Kyriakos]

But that's hardly a game about history, rather a game tangentially involving history. There is, after all, a legal reason why a certain Herr Hitler never appears in Paradox's Hearts of Iron games.

Paradox needs the german market, and Germany has taboo laws against nazi emblems. They even ban it from Polandball

 

[MacAttack]

I think these companies are trying to capitalize on the free press and attention it brings to them. They could really care less, but if it brings more views to their site or more folks into their brick and mortar stores, they will do or say anything, regardless of what they think.

In my opinion, the Confederate Flag should represent treason and civil disobedience rather than racism, and the KKK's emblems and flags as the true symbols of racist intolerance. But who am I to decide what these extremist whackjobs should and should not adopt as their symbols. The Confederate States of America have no relation to National Socialism whatsoever. Yet, I've seen the Confederate Battle Flag modified to look like a swastika. But again, emphasis on the word *should*.

 

[Triewd]

I don't mind the symbol not being used in official capacity by governments, but banning games because the symbol appears in one is stupid.

This is a historical symbol and as such belongs in a game about.. history.

When I'm shooting up Nazis in a video game about WW2, I want to see swastikas, and I want to see them burn.

well said.

banning historical games is counter productive

 

[EgonSpengler]

I think these companies are trying to capitalize on the free press and attention it brings to them. They could really care less, but if it brings more views to their site or more folks into their brick and mortar stores, they will do or say anything, regardless of what they think.

I think so, too, but I'm okay with that. In the same vein, I think some of the politicians suddenly coming out against the flag are seeing where their people are going and then trying to lead them. Fine. If we have to drag some of these backwards people into the future by their hair, I say let's do it.

In my opinion, the Confederate Flag should represent treason and civil disobedience rather than racism, and the KKK's emblems and flags as the true symbols of racist intolerance. But who am I to decide what these extremist whackjobs should and should not adopt as their symbols. The Confederate States of America have no relation to National Socialism whatsoever. Yet, I've seen the Confederate Battle Flag modified to look like a swastika. But again, emphasis on the word *should*.

I only have anecdotal information, but I've heard that European neo-Nazis wear Confederate Battle Flags in places where Nazi swastikas are illegal. It seems the flag's racist connotations are recognized around the world, by people who may or may not know a single thing about the US Civil War.


p.s. With all of the World War II games I've played in the last *cough* years (it's a lot) I've never missed seeing the Nazi Swastika. That said, the analogy between the Confederate flag and the Nazi flag doesn't have to be 100%. With the Germans, there are other evocative symbols to use as substitutes. I'm not sure there's a good substitute for the Confederate flag. Also, I've never heard a black person (or any other person) voice displeasure at seeing the Confederate flag in a game, movie or television show about the Civil War, or on the cover of a book, or whatnot. I mean, I think we can give everyone - black people included - a little credit for knowing when a Confederate flag is appropriate and when it isn't.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It seems the flag's racist connotations are recognized around the world, by people who may or may not know a single thing about the US Civil War.

That sounds disingenuous to me. If they didn't know "a single thing" about the US civil war, the flag would carry no meaning whatsoever to them. If that's what they're doing in Germany, then they did not stumble on the flag by accident. They picked it as a parallel, and if their motivation is to alter what regime runs the country and allow human rights violations, then it is probable that it was chosen with knowledge of its history.

There is nothing inherently racist about the flag; without an inferred meaning of what it represents it's nothing, just another pattern. Most people can infer that meaning. It is also in stark contrast with the swastika, which has spent far more of history being a religious symbol in Asia than it has a symbol of insanity and crimes. Even the Nazi flag itself, however, carries no meaning outside what people infer of it from history, though it's a bit more likely to use "by accident" than the confederate flag.

 

[MacAttack]

I only have anecdotal information, but I've heard that European neo-Nazis wear Confederate Battle Flags in places where Nazi swastikas are illegal. It seems the flag's racist connotations are recognized around the world, by people who may or may not know a single thing about the US Civil War.

I've seen Confederate battle flags being sold in Europe and it does disappoint me that it's taken so far out of context from it's original intent. I believe it's now the case in Europe as you indicate because of the dissemination of ideas that the internet provides and the fact that American Neo Nazis have an easy and direct line of communication with European Neo Nazis. When I saw the flag in Europe I wondered if it was seen as a jab to the US as a sign of imperfection, or even a sign of rebellion against the United States and what it stands for due to the context in which it was used in the 1860's. I saw it being sold in souvenir shops in Germany and Holland.

The Confederate battle flag only exists because the originally commissioned Confederate States national flag was too similar to the US national flag and caused major confusion in the battlefield during the First Battle of Bull Run

Spoiler :

and the Army of Northern Virginia went ahead and adopted a rejected design. The original name for it was the Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. Each regiment had its own banner but not the whole army. The Confederate Navy adopted a similar flag (shape was the only difference, rectangular as opposed to squared).

Because it became so popular, the national flag was changed to the Stainless Banner

So anyway, it is unfortunate that such an immoral group of people have taken a symbol and taken it our of context, just like the swastika and the yellow star with a hammer and sickle on a red background. But such is life. I just hope the crescent moon with a star in a green background don't face a similar fate.

 

[EgonSpengler]

That sounds disingenuous to me. If they didn't know "a single thing" about the US civil war, the flag would carry no meaning whatsoever to them. If that's what they're doing in Germany, then they did not stumble on the flag by accident. They picked it as a parallel, and if their motivation is to alter what regime runs the country and allow human rights violations, then it is probable that it was chosen with knowledge of its history.

People display symbols without knowing their context or history all the time. I expect a lot of white supremacists are pretty ignorant of the history they're aping. I wouldn't be surprised if the guy who shot up the church in SC couldn't locate Rhodesia on a map, or say what the country is called today. I suspect a lot of white supremacists just enjoy getting drunk with their buddies and listening to music and getting into fistfights. The ones who get involved in prison probably do so out of self-preservation, and the ones who get recruited out of the military get invited by their friends. I'm not sure if we know yet, but this kid in SC may have been indoctrinated by his family.

 

[warpus]

But that's hardly a game about history, rather a game tangentially involving history.

It's a game set in a historical setting. That's all that matters. If a certain symbol was used in a historical context, it wouldn't be out of place set in that time period, whether it's fictional or not.

Banning games because the confederate flag shows up would be like banning Tom Sawyer and H. Finn because the n-word appears in those books.

There is, after all, a legal reason why a certain Herr Hitler never appears in Paradox's Hearts of Iron games.

Yeah, it's due to Germany's laws and their rather large market, right?

I've seen plenty of Hitlers and swastikas in video games. Such as Wolfenstein. If the context is right, the symbol belongs there. If the context is wrong... then yes, perhaps it doesn't.

 

[Domen]

Now time to ban German flag from WW2 games!

========================

As for American Civil War games:

The CSA should be unable to win, even if the player playing as them wins:


Link to video.

 

[aelf]

Co-opting millennia of history of religious association to only or even just primarily associate the swastika symbol with Nazism is an extreme negative bias, that is unshared by billions of people today. The Nazi flag specifically would carry more reasonable associations with Nazism.

It's the flag that people have a problem with.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's the flag that people have a problem with.

No, the symbol itself has been misinterpreted in the US, and not just in a one-off fringe case.

I can't speak for elsewhere, but I would guess the association is less strong in areas where its religious symbolism is known/more familiar.

The CSA should be unable to win, even if the player playing as them wins:

Nonsense. It's like claiming that winning as an evil character or faction shouldn't happen. Historically, it has happened that an unjust nation won, and some people enjoy making the evil side win on occasion in games. Making it so that CSA can't win, then turning around and slaughtering thousands as one man across a run of Grand Theft Auto carries with it implications of profound hypocrisy, and that's not the only example . It's a lot more plausible that the CSA could have won than a 4 man team of criminals from a game like Payday 2 could fight off hundreds of SWAT team members with advanced weaponry, and the ethics of smuggling nuclear arms as such isn't exactly closer to "good".

Games aren't real and shouldn't be treated as such.

 

[MacAttack]

to support your point, look at Civ! you shouldn't be doomed to an early exit out of the game just because you chose to play as the Carthaginians.

 

[Darkflight]

Seems like one of those immediate overreactions that will be removed in silence when the event that lead to the overraction fades from public memory.

 

[Kyriakos]

to support your point, look at Civ! you shouldn't be doomed to an early exit out of the game just because you chose to play as the Carthaginians.

Apparently you haven't played Victoria 1 and its mod, VIP That was one nazi mod where no matter what nothing important in history could change (eg the North would win the war by default even if they were massively losing and also invaded by Britain at the time, cause events gave them the win ). Same with Prussia against France, or Russia in the Crimean war.

 

[civvver]

I think it's a stupid overreaction and I also think it's a borderline dangerous precedent. These games don't mean this as an offensive symbol, just a historical flag in a freakin' game. It kinda goes to show how social pressure can negatively affect things. Like it might sound far fetched now but what if there's another mass shooting and now apple bans all games with guns because guns are offensive? Playing games with guns in them doesn't mean you promote mass shootings just as playing as the south in a game doesn't mean your promote slavery. I mean hell, I love playing Tie Fighter, but I sure don't belong to the dark side!