Application development on the web

[Heffalump]

Not sure how many visitors here are into web development but I thought I'd solicit opinions on some of the technologies out there today and where people see them heading...

Java & JSPs- widespread use, scaleable, free, platform independent (mostly). On the other hand, much higher learning curve. Not a path to be embarked on lightly.

ASP - widespread use, simpler to code than Java, but platform dependent, IIS dependent. Closed source.

ColdFusion - simple, easy-to-learn scripting language, intuitive syntax. Latest version J2EE compatible. Still it's a proprietary application server, and like ASP it's difficult to abstract apps into object-oriented architecture.

PHP - relatively simple scripting language, open-source, non-proprietary. Has achieved widespread use in last couple years. Don't know much more about it.

Comments welcomed...

 

[funxus]

I'm not in to this, but I'd use ASP or vb/jscript if anything. The others I don't know anything about

 

[Lucky]

If you know a bit of C or Pascal, you´ll have no problems with PHP and it´s basic. The best thing probably is its flawless implementation of database access, especially SQL DBs.

And if you know PHP, you don´t have to step far to learn Javascript or even Java itself.
Pretty much the best combination there is.

 

[Heffalump]

thanx for the insight into PHP.

I know ColdFusion, html, javascript quite well. And have worked with Java & JSPs in the last year (studying for my certification now).

Lucky, is ColdFusion much of a presence in Germany? My initial take is that it's not. In terms of job listings it's looks like java is the ticket for the German market. (Actually I'm particularly curious about Germany since it looks like I'll be moving back there early next year).

 

[Lucky]

Coldfusion is not much used anywhere. As you said yourself, it's not open source and everything not open-source is difficult to spread around.

ASP is (at least partly) developed by Microsoft, as they didn't and still don't want to accept Java or anything else as a de-facto standard. Since MS :flamedevi is behind it, many companies that have contracts with MS on some level or another are bound to use it. But if you look at independent sites and personal homepages, you won't find it much. And IMHO it won't push Java off the market.

ColdFusion is also relatively new and therefore not so well known. I know that at university here, not many tutors are able to teach ColdFusion. And with a closed source, it won't find its way into the learning process either, at least not easily.

But you also have to realize that customers don't really care HOW their web appearence works, the only care THAT it works. Preferably with all systems and browsers.

If you are deciding what to learn, I would deeply suggest PHP, Java, JS and the like. You will find much more tutorials, help sites and of course example code around the net than with anything else. One thing you mustn't forget is that the actual appearance on the web is still based on HTML or a similar markup language, so you have to know that as well.

 

[Sodapop]

My vote to php... The MS equivalent (ASP) is too slow. Other things that are great about php is that a lot of application are distributed freely, opposed to ASP, where most of the programs are paid. Anyway, most of the site using ASP are big companies who have the ressource to buy these software. If you don't want to pay a dime, you can use PHP with Apache and MySQL, all for free. I don't know much about coldfusion, but if it's closed source, then it's not really a good idea.

Now, between Java and PHP... It all depends on what you want to do. Since java is client side, you can do active things, like gaves or chatrooms or things that updates quickly. PHP is server-side, so that means everyone can run your script, but you can hardly run really interactive programs. But the main advantage of PHP is that it's server side, so anyone will be able to see your thing, from wherever they are...

 

[CornMaster]

I need to learn php....

Any good sites out there?

 

[Lucky]

Go to www.php.net .
It´s the official site with tutorials, an extensive function list, all kinds of articles and examples and of course many updates. You should find most of what you need there.

Especially if you are familiar with C or at least Pascal, you´ll have not much trouble getting into PHP.

You can also go to www.phpBB.com . Since it´s open source (contrary to vB ) you´ll find plenty of code to learn from there. Of course most of it is somehow connected to forum programming, but especially there you can witness the easyness of which PHP, MySQL and HTML are connected.

 

[CornMaster]

Well...I want to do a news thing list GC has. For my many members (2).

Plus if you haven't noticed...my webpages are boring.

 

[Black Fluffy Lion]

Lots of these PHP vs. ASP things depend on whether you're using ASP.NET or ASP.

ASP.NET is faster than PHP (especially OO stuff), unless you use something like zend with PHP, which costs money.

ASP.NET is also free to download (even though it's rather large), so PHP does not win on price either.

ASP.NET has some great features in it. After all, it's a part of .NET...so if you're looking for the most features then .NET wins too I believe.

just because ASP is made by microsoft doesn't make it inferior to PHP. That said, I use PHP. you will find more PHP resources I expect, as well as better hosting. I have a big list of links, ask me if you want them...

PS, someone mentioned phpbb...I suggest you don't have a look at phpBB until you know PHP well. phpBB uses a DBAL, template system and so on, which would probably only make the code difficult to understand if you've never seen php before

 

[Lucky]

Originally posted by CornMaster
Well...I want to do a news thing list GC has. For my many members (2).

Plus if you haven't noticed...my webpages are boring.

PHP and MySQL is probably your best bet for that. Of course you need a database, otherwise it´ll be to difficult to implement. So you first have to check whether SQL is available at the sites you use. And of course the server must support PHP, too.

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

And of course the server must support PHP, too.

That's the real biggie, as long as it's supported I would suggest PHP also. Of course, there's always good old copy and past HTML to get that news up there

As for me, no coldfusion. I use Flash MX, HTML(ALWAYS hand coded), JavaScript, Java, and some VBScript. ASP.NET is excellent but I'm just learning and I have *some* php experience but I've known C(++) for several years so it shouldn't be that hard if lucky was telling the truth earlier

Corn, the first thing you'll need is more members

 

[Chieftess]

For PHP, you can also get an Apache server. (Yes, there's one for free) "Setting up your own webpage has never been easier! And you can too in just 3 simple steps!" (inside joke - chat humor)

Anyway, it's as simple as writing: <? [code here] ?>

 

[Sodapop]

Yeah... Basicly it is... Well there's a whole lot more. You got to echo or print everything you want to write. You can combine your code with html coding, or make db queries. And all the functiuns, what they do, and user notes are made available on www.php.net

Gonzo, from what I've heard (I've never coded any C, so I couldn't say) php is almost exactly like C... Personally I bought a book, since I like to be able to think about my programs without having to look at the comp screen, but I guess it would be possible to learn it all on internet sites if you want to.

BFL, first time I hear you saying something good about asp or MS... Anyway, there's no way to use it with apacher right??? So that means you still have to use IIS, which is wide known for the security holes... Correct me if I'm wrong, but just the fact that ASP can't be ported on anything else than IIS makes it worse than php in the end...

 

[Black Fluffy Lion]

as the others have said: PHP is extremely easy to learn

Originally posted by Unknown soldier
BFL, first time I hear you saying something good about asp or MS...

ASP sucks, .NET doesn't though

Anyway, there's no way to use it with apacher right??? So that means you still have to use IIS, which is wide known for the security holes... Correct me if I'm wrong, but just the fact that ASP can't be ported on anything else than IIS makes it worse than php in the end...

it is possible IIRC, using mod_perl (I may be inventing this all), but asp is ideally suited to IIS I suppose, which is a downside of it

edit: I wasn't imagining it - http://www.nodeworks.com/asp/

 

[Sodapop]

Interesting, might try to install it someday on my apache server... Though I wouldn't use it, it might be fun to try to learn a couple o' things thanks fluffo