Applying Real World Concepts to Civ 4

Scholastic said:
One key concept of fascism is state ownership of the means of production. Why would business owners be necessary in a fascist state, Jewish, German, or otherwise?


Because it was a political necessity for Hitler to cozy up with them?


Again, not in a fascist state. The state owns everything. The key features of a fascist state are labourers and soldiers.


OK... Sure... "State Property" is way overpowered anyway...


The way you talk, you would probably say that Queen Isabella, Karl Marx, among others also had economic senses of bags of potatoes.


While the Spanish colonial empire was the marvel of its age, the endless flow of gold and silver and the resulting inflation eventually brought bankrupcy and financial ruin to the mother country. Queen Isabella was pretty sharp herself tho, from what I recall.
Haven't read Karl Marx, too lazy to start analysing the theorteical feasability of communism.
 
anti_strunt said:
Because it was a political necessity for Hitler to cozy up with them?

Only until the transition from a republic to a fascist state. Afterwards, they were completely useless to him. Again, state property. Businesses are only valuable in a capitalist state. Fascism is not capitalism.

OK... Sure... "State Property" is way overpowered anyway...

Explain that please.


While the Spanish colonial empire was the marvel of its age, the endless flow of gold and silver and the resulting inflation eventually brought bankrupcy and financial ruin to the mother country. Queen Isabella was pretty sharp herself tho, from what I recall.

I was referring to the Spanish inquisiton.
 
Scholastic said:
OK... Sure... "State Property" is way overpowered anyway...
Explain that please.
He's referring to State Property in the game. Zero upkeep, removes all distance-based maintenance, and provides bonus food to many improvements.
 
I didn't read the thread through, but Hitler wasn't a military genius at all. He was a political genius, that's for sure, but not military genius... He made extrem mistakes during WW2. Without him the nazis would have rushed Moscow, and Stalingrad, before the Russians could reinforce them, and could take them without those incredibly severe fights. Without Hitler, the nazis would have attacked in the spring, and they hadn't had to fight during the Russian winter. Without Hitler the LuftWaffe could have destroyed the English Royal Air Force. Hitler ordered the terrorising bombing of London, Coventry, Bristol etc, but continuing to bomb strategical locations, factories, harbors, and airports would have totally crippled the English air force. But because Hitler started attacking the civilians, the Royal AIr Force could reinforce itself. The disembarkation of England would have been a real possiblity.
I don't say that without Hitler the Germans had won WW2, which is nonsense, because of the enormous American industry and force, but there had been a lot less German casualties, and more German successes.
I think without Hitler the Allied victory would have been a LOT harder.
 
Oh, and don't forget: without Hiler Germany wouldn't have wasted so much resources to exterminate the Jew.
 
Scholastic said:
In civilization 3, when you disband a unit, you get back those shields, and that goes towards whatever you are producing at the time. Something i liked to do in Civ 3 was draft a bunch of units, and then disband them. Hitler essentially did the same with the Jews.

My prejudice that Americans are ignorant is getting stronger when reading this... Please read some books about WW2, or watch a few films.
 
Scholastic said:
No no, you misunderstood me. I was making an analogy. What the previous person inferred is that Hitler killed the Jews only to boost his own ego. That is not the case. For good or for ill, Hitler did make economic use of the people he killed. For example, he liquidated their assets for use of the Reich. I am not trying to be controversial or otherwise flamant. I am not saying that it was a good or bad thing. I am just pointing out that the murder of 11 million people was not soley for egotistical reasons. Hell, if you take out the morality and emotion of it, what you had was a very ruthless, but effective economic maneuver.

That was 6million Jew. Isn't WW2 taught at schools in the US???
 
SPQR300 said:
That was 6million Jew. Isn't WW2 taught at schools in the US???

It is. However, in High School it is not gone over enough. WWII is covered in less than one chapter, IIRC. That is definitely not enough about WWII.
 
Thalassicus said:
He's referring to State Property in the game. Zero upkeep, removes all distance-based maintenance, and provides bonus food to many improvements.

Ya, that is one of my favorite civics. I like to use representation, bureaucracy (sp?), serfdom, state property, and theocracy during times of peace.

During wartime: replace representation with police state.

Fascism all the way.
 
[really offtopic and warnable]
I have to get this off my head.
Is was specifically mentioned against talking about in this thread so warn if you must.
I have more on topic stuff to cancel out the WWII stuff.
SPQR300 said:
That was 6million Jew.
Isn't WW2 taught at schools in the US???

Yes there are 6 million Jews.
But there are 5 million people who were not Jewish.
I bet there are many people alive right now, mostly in Poland, who have relatives, maybe grandparents who were killed by the Holocaust.
They could be Christian even.

@Abgar
I like how you mentioned this.
I would put you on my buddy list if that list meant something.
[/really offtopic and warnable]

Back on topic.
A. Agriculture I was always thinging about the FPC (food, production, commerce) method in the Civs.
In history life humans went through 4 eons.

First was the agriculture period.
People were learning how to farm better.
Most food was still sustinence.

The second time was industrial, though that varied for
different civilizations.
Once they had enough people, and technology of course, they started creating machines to do the work, hence increacing "hammers."

Third, when they could build pretty fast they could concentrate on money.
They built more things like banks and corporations.

The last era, which is now, is informational.
Many countries, eastern and western mainly, as opposed to Africa, have enough of both and can create many a works of art.
Not many movies and books are made in so-called undeveloped countries.

I once heard someone say that since wheat wasn't common in the Americas population was limited.
Since wheat can feed more people then corn Europe grew faster.
He mentioned that if he went back in time he would want to plant some wheat in the Americas so see what happenes.

I think Civ is good at emulating this.
You grow first, then create hammers, I almost called them shields, and finally obtain wealth.

Of course the military and technology should always be used.
If one falls too much you will be attacked.

I want to try it that way, make farms, then workshops, and finally cottages.
See if historical methods work in civ.

What I really want for Civ, probably like Civ 10 or 20, is to make it so you really can emulate real life.
Food still can't be traded.
Trade posts don't exist either.
 
Scholastic said:
Only until the transition from a republic to a fascist state. Afterwards, they were completely useless to him. Again, state property. Businesses are only valuable in a capitalist state. Fascism is not capitalism.

Businesses are still as valuable; the difference is that the Almighty Leader can decide that he doesn't like them and shut them down on a whim.

And the results will naturally be thereafter...

I was referring to the Spanish inquisiton.

Oh, of course. I did wonder what connection you were trying to make; well, the expulsion of the country's Jews and Arabs after the completions of the Reconquista proved very detractive for the Spanish finances.
 
slothman said:
[really offtopic and warnable]
I want to try it that way, make farms, then workshops, and finally cottages.
See if historical methods work in civ.

If it did people wouldn't be spamming cottages like it was going out of style...
 
Scholastic said:
Hitler was a military genius.


HaHaHaHaHa, hitler was a people's genius, he knew how to manipulate and control. His nagging of generals and useless sacks probably lost him that war far sooner then it should have ended. (A good thing to be sure) Rommel was the genius in the German army, He was the brilliant campaigner.
 
Marcus Cicero said:
HaHaHaHaHa, hitler was a people's genius, he knew how to manipulate and control. His nagging of generals and useless sacks probably lost him that war far sooner then it should have ended. (A good thing to be sure) Rommel was the genius in the German army, He was the brilliant campaigner.

Dude, Manstein's were it's at. Rommel got the easy front.
 
anti_strunt said:
Dude, Manstein's were it's at. Rommel got the easy front.

I admit manstein was competant, but nothing to Rommel's genius.
 
Whatever the case! Do y'all like to use Blitzkrieg tactics in Civ 4?


Blitzkrieg, to my understanding, involves the following 3 step method:

A) Precision bombing
B) Tank rush
C) Infantry cleanup
 
Its debatable as to the bombing. I would say on a smaller scale, perhaps, but the major bombing was over England and the tanks never came.


The Tanks rush in in a pronged assault meeting someplace farther down the line. The infantry would then come to clean up the pockets of resistance the panzers had left behind.
 
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