Aqueduct Buildings

Are these numbers OP?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • No

    Votes: 2 50.0%
  • Stupid Idea

    Votes: 1 25.0%

  • Total voters
    4

evruthon

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
9
As of right now I find the Aqueduct to be an atrocious waste of a tile while also being a painful tech boost. If however this building had 3 buildings and citizens in it like other districts it would be much more worthwhile. My idea is to gear the Aqueduct toward being an optional choice for cities that have Food issues.

Aqueduct: Cities without fresh water get +6 Housing and Cities with fresh water get +2 Housing. (Optional: yields +1 Food from adjacent Mountains/Oasis/Rivers)
Citizen Slot: +2 Food, 1 Gold.

Tier 1:

Farmers Market: +1 Food, +1 Gold, +1 Citizen Slot. (Optional: adjacent Farms and Pastures get +1 Food)
Building Unlocks: Engineering
--
OR
--
Community Center: +1 Production, +1 Citizen Slot. (Optional: adjacent Farms and Pastures get +1 Production)
Building Unlocks: Construction

Tier 2:

County Fair: +2 Food, +1 Production, +1 Citizen Slot. (Optional: adjacent Camps and Plantations get +1 Food and +1 Production)
Building Unlocks: Mass Production

Tier 3:

Agricultural Convention Center: +5 Food, +2 Production, +1 Citizen Slot. (Optional: adjacent Farms/Pastures/Camps/Plantations get +2 Food and +1 Production)
Building Unlocks: Sanitation
 
havent voted yet, my mind is hopping between "too OP" and "absurd".

with how it is presented, a fully built aqueduct would give 6 housing, food for 4 citizen, 1 gold, 3 production.

while that sound a great boost, it find it to be too OP as it would break the balance between the tile improvement and the district. making more room for district and mines. (as you would need less farms).

at the same time, i find it quite absurd to give housing AND the capacity to fill them on the same tile. aqueduct bring fresh water and therefore a city that have already a source of fresh water should not seem to lack something from not having an aqueduct. (dont make aqueduct a necessity.)

you may also need to remember that the Roman have their version of the Aqueduct, the Thermes, as unique district.

if a change still need to be made, i would rather go for this:

- aqueduct give a +1 culture for each 2 adjacent district. (as water sources were gathering points in the past. city center could have same adjacency bonus.)
- aqueduct gain +2 housing if the city center got a sewer.
 
Last edited:
[The information in this post is based on a university history course about water use and hydro-engineering]

Depending on the type of aqueduct we're talking about, aqueducts are more or less suited to be district tiles. The most famous aqueducts are the Roman variety- they stretched for miles and relied on incredible precision of engineering to function. The purpose of Roman aqueducts was to provide clean water to cities. River water is unclean at best, often polluted with sewage or animal excrement and riddled with disease. As such, it was largely unfit for drinking and with cities of tens of thousands, and the various needs for water beyond drinking, wells were impractical. Roman engineers explored nearby terrain in search of natural springs- areas where underground aquifers well up to the surface. Due to the sterile environment underground, these springs were inherently clean and free of bacteria or contaminants. A major constraint however was that the spring had to be high enough above the city and that the aqueduct itself couldn't be lower than the city (except in certain exceptions). Roman engineers meticulously measured the exact elevation between the city and the spring source with very low-tech tools, like a measured stick and chorobates, which is a very heavy wooden table with a portion of water and two eye holes. The table was supported by rocks or debris until the water was level. One engineer would then peer through the two holes to where another engineer was holding the measured pole. The height of the table is subtracted from the observed height on the pole and the result is recorded as the difference in elevation between the two points. As you can imagine, this is a very difficult method to use accurately.

In the city of Nimes, the only spring that could be located was 50 km away (around 31 miles). In addition, the spring was only 17 m (55' 9") above the city. That meant the average gradient of the aqueduct could not be more than 17:50000, or about 1 mm every 3 m (~1/25th of an inch every ten feet). Despite this, they successfully completed the aqueduct and it functioned for hundreds of years.

There are a number of errors with how aqueducts are presented however: aqueducts were only built above ground when they needed to bridge a valley or gulley (especially rivers). In instances where the gap was too far or deep to bridge, they'd employ piping in a reverse siphon to drop to the valley floor and then back up the other side. Regardless, they attempted to avoid building aqueducts above ground at all costs: not only was it more expensive and time consuming, it made them vulnerable. As the only source of clean water for the entire city, aqueducts were incredibly vulnerable to sabotage, and they were often buried in the ground. Access ports for maintenance (sediments in the water would eventually collect in limestone sheets in the bottom of aqueduct channels. These sheets would be harvested periodically and used as tombstones among other purposes) were placed at set distances and would be hidden with vegetation.

The other type of aqueduct which is present in Civ is the variety that were built in the middle east after the fall of the Roman empire. Modeled after earlier Roman examples, they often focused on drawing water directly from rivers (usually rivers that the city was settled on) using Noria. Civ 6 aqueducts that are built onto rivers have these Noria rendered (they're large water wheels that are powered by the movement of the river. They lift water and drop it into the top of the trough of the aqueduct). This sort of aqueduct does not provide clean water. This water was only fit for use in public baths or for any purposes where water power might be useful in the city.

Regardless of the purpose however, aqueducts are relatively small, though long. Most aren't more than a few meters across, so the idea that they even occupy an entire tile is a little silly. It makes (a bit) of sense that you can't build them through districts, but honestly I don't even think they should obstruct normal improvement placement (it's completely reasonable to have an aqueduct go through farmland. The impact would be negligible at best). However, it should be possible to pillage an aqueduct while sieging a city.
 
Regardless of the purpose however, aqueducts are relatively small, though long. Most aren't more than a few meters across, so the idea that they even occupy an entire tile is a little silly. It makes (a bit) of sense that you can't build them through districts, but honestly I don't even think they should obstruct normal improvement placement (it's completely reasonable to have an aqueduct go through farmland. The impact would be negligible at best). However, it should be possible to pillage an aqueduct while sieging a city.
The Aqueduct tile does seem to have other buildings in it, perhaps reflecting additional housing built there.

I'd be interested in the potential of building aqueduct districts elsewhere in the city in future eras. Like after researching Desalinisation they're available next to coast tiles.
 
I expect the little buildings are because it made the tile look empty otherwise. There aren't any other buildings associated with aqueducts though. Like I said, they could stretch for 10s of kilometers and were usually hidden. Any attempt to add aqueduct-specific buildings would be moving away from historicism in my opinion, because there are no aqueduct specific buildings.

Additionally, the aqueduct doesn't count towards the district limit, so any buildings might be overpowered.
 
Hmm. Could springs be a terrain feature in future installments maybe? Like starting near a river or lake is nice for basic water supplies but having workers build an aqueduct to your city gives you a bunch of bonuses.
 
The Aqueduct is another of the many instances where the Design Mob of Civ VI didn't think things through...

They already have the precedent with the Great Wall - a linear, multi-tile 'National Wonder' - the Aqueduct should be a Linear Improvement, one end of which is required to be adjacent to the City Center, the other end, up to 1 + X tiles away, in or at a tile containing a water source. That source doesn't have to be designated as a Spring: it could be any Mountain tile, upstream (from the city) River tile-edge, or Oasis tile. I would not get excited about having the tile be 'higher' than the City Center, since as far back as the 13th century BCE they already had waterwheel lifts to raise water (for irrigation) to a higher level, powered by people or animals (treadmills).
The Aqueduct, unlike qanats or other Irrigation engineering, should not provide Food, only Housing or possibly Amenity (fresh clean water, baths, fountains, etc.). However, as an Improvement it would be possible to Pillage one or more Aqueduct ties, with catastrophic results to the city population.
The Aqueduct Improvement could be coded like a Road, which does not interfere with other Improvements like Mines or Farms in the tile.

As an idea for discussion, since Aqueducts were specialized engineering structures requiring some expertise to construct and maintain, they should probably be harder to build than an 'ordinary' Improvement. Perhaps 2 Builder Charges per tile, or require that the Civilization have a Great Engineer in order to build Aqueducts. The GE would not be expended by this, but if he's expended for anything else, you cannot build any more Aqueduct tiles! That and requiring extra Charges/Tile would probably keep the Aqueducts from becoming Universal - that and the fact that to build one, you still have to have one tile next to the City Center left without a District to allow access to the Aqueduct.
 
I did mention water lifting structures in my post, I discussed Noria briefly. I didn't mention elevation as a segue into introducing it as a mechanic for Civ 6, I just wanted to provide some context for it. The reason that non-spring sources are undesirable though is that all surface water sources are unclean. They are full of bacteria and diseases that are harmful to citizens.

We have military engineers to build forts and later airstrips and missile silos, why not introduce a civil engineer that can build aqueducts? That seems to be the most reasonable way to handle them. I don't think we should have double charge costs for aqueduct construction however. I do like the idea of aqueducts being longer than a single tile though.
 
I did mention water lifting structures in my post, I discussed Noria briefly. I didn't mention elevation as a segue into introducing it as a mechanic for Civ 6, I just wanted to provide some context for it. The reason that non-spring sources are undesirable though is that all surface water sources are unclean. They are full of bacteria and diseases that are harmful to citizens..

But, while less desirable, there are numerous ancient/classical/medieval cities that did not rely on spring water, and it is arguable whether this materially delayed their population growth. In other words, why add a terrain feature that is not necessary when in fact, the requirement for a city to grow before Industrial Era plumbing was simply ANY fresh water source: spring, river, oasis, lake, glacier run-off, etc.?

We have military engineers to build forts and later airstrips and missile silos, why not introduce a civil engineer that can build aqueducts? That seems to be the most reasonable way to handle them. I don't think we should have double charge costs for aqueduct construction however. I do like the idea of aqueducts being longer than a single tile though.

Again, why add a unit for a single special purpose? Also, I believe many of the 'historical' Civil Engineers show up as Great Engineers in the game. Not belittling the achievements of engineers in history or the game (in fact, I'm currently re-reading DeCamp's The Ancient Engineers for the umpteenth time in 30 years!) but if we can get a similar effect (making aqueducts a little 'special' to build compared to other Improvements) with units already in the game, why not? The exact cost in Builder Charges is not (pardon the pun) Set in Stone, as long as an aqueduct is not as easily built as an ordinary Mine or Quarry.
 
I guess I didn't clarify, I was not suggesting springs be added. I only wanted to clarify how springs were used. I don't think that having springs is a good idea. As far as I'm concerned, the mountain aqueducts are already supposed to represent springs.

I'm sure we could find many uses for civil engineers. Given that aqueducts were actually relatively common in the civilizations that built them, I don't think special care needs to be given to them, but if you want them to be harder to get than normal buildings or improvements, I suggest a new type of unit to build them. Once Civil engineers are added, they can have more uses added in later eras, just as military engineers only have a single purpose until you unlock airstrips.
 
I don't know if we'd really need a Civil Engineer when builders seem to fill most of that role.

I'd be interested to know more about water in early civilizations though. How did they manage if there wasn't a spring nearby? I'm vaguely aware of people drinking small beer in preference to water through many periods of history but how does that solve the bacteria problem?
 
I guess I didn't clarify, I was not suggesting springs be added. I only wanted to clarify how springs were used. I don't think that having springs is a good idea. As far as I'm concerned, the mountain aqueducts are already supposed to represent springs.

Understand. We're agreed.

I'm sure we could find many uses for civil engineers. Given that aqueducts were actually relatively common in the civilizations that built them, I don't think special care needs to be given to them, but if you want them to be harder to get than normal buildings or improvements, I suggest a new type of unit to build them. Once Civil engineers are added, they can have more uses added in later eras, just as military engineers only have a single purpose until you unlock airstrips.

Interesting. Civil Engineer as a Specialized Builder like the Military Engineer, but for specific Civil projects? The problem is, many of the classic Civil Engineering projects historically: building railroads, canals, highways, dams, etc. - are either not in the game at all or already done by regular Builders. Perhaps Civil Engineers could provide some sort of 'Builder Eureka' to speed up Wonder/District construction?

OR, in line with the Civil Engineering = Earthmoving, allow a Civil Engineer to modify the basic terrain in a tile: convert a plain/grassland into a Hill, or a Hill into Plains/Grassland to provide, say, the proper site for a Wonder or District, or 'dam' a river to convert a (non-Hill/Mountain) tile into a Lake which provides a water source for an Aqueduct.

Now that I think on it, Civil Engineers could add some of the Landscape-Altering ability that Civ games have sorely lacked, especially compared to what has been done historically since the Industrial Era. This increasing ability to alter tiles would be in line with the Military Engineers' increasing utility per your suggestion.
 
I don't know if we'd really need a Civil Engineer when builders seem to fill most of that role.

I'd be interested to know more about water in early civilizations though. How did they manage if there wasn't a spring nearby? I'm vaguely aware of people drinking small beer in preference to water through many periods of history but how does that solve the bacteria problem?

Every City founded before the Modern Era was on or next to a water source. For the great majority of them, that was a river, or where the river meets the sea, both of which have the double advantage of providing fresh water and having moving water to carry away (some or most) of the sewage. Rivers/Coasts had the additional advantage that they allowed Food to be brought in by boat, which greatly extended the 'City Radius' serving the city's population.

Any drink with alcohol in it has some antiseptic/anti-bacterial effects - which is why beer has been brewed since forever, and in fact some archeologists have argued that the reason people settled down and raised grains was so they could brew them into beer, not make bread!
Even so, if you look at, say, the records of the Roman Empire, you find that the (massive) city of Rome had an epidemic of some kind just about every 5 - 10 years. The combination of crowding (spreads disease easily), mediocre water, mediocre medicine, and constant arrivals of people and goods from disease-sources around and outside the Empire, made city life a real gamble.
That didn't change, really, until the Industrial Era Sanitation/Sewer Systems: London and Paris had regular epidemics right up to the early 19th century, and cholera (directly attributable to Bad Water) hit London so regularly every summer that it was automatic that all the aristocrats left town 'for the season' - a survival mechanism made Fashionable.
 
I'd do two things to buff the aqueduct:
- allow it to "work" the tile it's placed on: fairly self explanatory, you place it on a plain it generates +1 food and +1 production, you place it on a grassland hill it generates +2 food and +1 production

- allow multiple to be built in the same city: if I have a mountain in the 3rd city ring let me build 2 aqueducts back-to-back
 
I don't know about farmers' markets and such, but until release I was sure the Aqueduct district was going to have its own buildings (wells or bathhouses, sewers, water treatment plants, etc).
 
In my opinion it should stay as it is. Mind that it is a district not stopped by city pop numer. So it is more like a 1tile building then district. I usually build them only in cities with no fresh water next to city center. Or when I play Rome. Otherwise - not very useful...
One thing I would change that it don't have to be next to city center (it is annoying, very annoying) because it is a main reason I build it very rarely...

OR

I'd do two things to buff the aqueduct:
- allow it to "work" the tile it's placed on: fairly self explanatory, you place it on a plain it generates +1 food and +1 production, you place it on a grassland hill it generates +2 food and +1 production

- allow multiple to be built in the same city: if I have a mountain in the 3rd city ring let me build 2 aqueducts back-to-back
 
Top Bottom