Ara - civ and leaders discussion/prediction

[Patine]

Wu Zetian? The only other notable Chinese Empress I know of is Cixi

Cixi ruled as Empress Dowager, not de jure Empress Regnant. Wu Zetian was the only formal Empress Regnant. Other than the short-serving, acting Chairwoman of the PRC Soong Ch'ing-ling (pinyin Song Qingling) (fun fact, the title translated in the West as, "Chairman of the PRC,", that was held by Mao, Liu, Dong, and Soong, and the title translated in the West as, President of the PRC," held by Li, Yang, Jiang, Hu, and Xi, are EXACTLY THE SAME, unaltered title in Chinese and the PRC Constitution - as I recall hearing, a triple superlative of the word for a village headman, given Maoist political theory), and, if giving recognition to Taiwan's claimed, oficial name as Republic of China (carried by Chiang Kai-shek from Governance on the Mainland from 1924-1949 after he fled to Taiwan after the Chinese Civil War - a claimed title and national that is why Taiwanese independence is complicated even on Taiwan's side), their incumbet President, Tsai Ing-wen, have been the only three de jure Chinese female heads of state.

 

[SeelingCat]

If you're referring to this, I was only expressing my preferences.

Ah yes, sorry! Meant 'suggested' as like a potential idea, not as a prediction.

I think Wu Zetian makes more sense in terms of visuals (although it would be - like Civ5 - a very young depiction of her), but that it's also sort of a bigger "leap" in the sense that up until now we haven't heard (AFAIK) that cultures can have more than 1 leader - not that it's a particularly big stretch to imagine. My rationale for Mongolia (Mandukhai in particular as a [Northern] Yuan leader) is that it seemed like the most likely non-China culture to be potentially depicted with such a Sinicized appearance - and we don't have a leader confirmed for them yet.

A secret third option - though I'm not sure it's particularly likely - could be that it's an advisor-like character (like the Greek(?) woman in Civ 6), rather than a leader character; but, if that's the case, it seems like she's pretty overdressed.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Ah yes, sorry! Meant 'suggested' as like a potential idea, not as a prediction.

There's no need to apologise. I was just clarifying that it was, as you said, an idea, not a prediction. Sorry if my tone made it seem as if I were berating you

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

(unless this is the first confirmation of multiple leaders per culture).

We do have a very strong indication (in my opinion) that multiple leaders is a possibility

Screengrab from Jumbo Pixel's video on Ara:

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What I find interesting is that only the 'House of Wisdom' seems tied to the nation, while the rest of the 'traits' may be linked to the leader. Which implies the same nation could have multiple leaders.

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I very strongly lean towards it being Wu Zetian. Look at the background. If it were a Mongolian leader, I would expect a bunch of yurts or a horde of horsemen on a steppe. The boating fisherman in a sea/lake (?) with mountains in the background is a frequent motif in Chinese art

 

[SeelingCat]

Looks like it is in fact Wu Zetian, so multiple leaders confirmed! (and good for modding potential!)

Also found a couple bits of new information:

• Assyria is led by Sennacherib
• Belgium is led by Leopold I
• Boudica is confirmed as leader (not sure naming of civ)
• Germany is led by Hildegard of Bingen
• Holy Roman Empire seems to be a separate faction?
• Poland is led by Nicolaus Copernicus

Also, took a stab at identifying the faces from the latest video:

 

[Rac]

Ok so from the new trailer

 

[SeelingCat]

Going off the assumption that same-civ leaders are adjacent(ish) (Washington/Tubman and Confucius/Wu Zetian), I think it's likely that Alexander will also lead Greece and that the one to the right of the Persian leader might be Otto von Bismarck (adjacent-ish to Hildegard as the other German leader), which would lead the one above him to be Mexico's leader.

The blank one I think is Sejong since we have pretty good proof he's in - and the woman to his right could be another Korean leader (Shin Saimdang?)?

 

[Rac]

Going off the assumption that same-civ leaders are adjacent(ish) (Washington/Tubman and Confucius/Wu Zetian), I think it's likely that Alexander will also lead Greece and that the one to the right of the Persian leader might be Otto von Bismarck (adjacent-ish to Hildegard as the other German leader), which would lead the one above him to be Mexico's leader.

The blank one I think is Sejong since we have pretty good proof he's in - and the woman to his right could be another Korean leader (Shin Saimdang?)?

Reviewing the leaderboards again, I am confident that the leader of Songhai is Sunni Ali (there is an illustration of him that is similar to the model Ara is using); while the guy with the gray mustache is probably Otto von Bismark because the model has a collar with a bow that some historical photos of Otto show him wearing, but still not so sure if that's the case; that unrevealed silhouette is a copy of the model of the Apsáalooké leader, but I don't think it's Sejong because his model was aready done in older trailers which wouldn't make sense to hide or not have a UI icon already done by now I guess; but the model of the woman next door seems to fit very well with a part of the model visible in an old Ara trailer that was basically an all-white East Asian outfit (it has a small bow but can't tell if it's a hanbok or another dress).
Another thing is that from older photage, the number of selectable leaders went up from 40 to 45 and, assuming the silhouette is neither of those, Sejong and Benito Juárez aren't there yet so that means we have at least 47 leaders at launch... An odd number that might still go up, so the full list (everything in bold is confirmed by UI labels):

Another thing to comment is that in the first reveal trailer for Ara, it has leaders with their in game models shown in it (ie. Wu Zetian can be seen doing the Benjamin Franklin's kite experiment with... Him or Cesare Beccaria???) but it seems to have some unkowns there too. Everyone I saw there where: Nefertiti talking with an really early model Sunni Ali or another person?, Irene in a parede with an different guy with top hat, Wu Zetian doing that experiment with Franklin?, Confucious and Harun al-Rashid looking at a sity model while being over Rio de Janeiro (wait where's Brazil in Ara?), there an Chinese looking woman talking to an Indian looking woman going down a staircase, Simón Bolívar passes by while Beccaria or Washington talk to someone, Jeanne d'Arc and Shaka training spears, Itzcoatl and Amaniremas talking and lastly an early model of Copernicus talking with Sappho... I'm putting the images on a spoiler tag

Spoiler :

 

[Dale]

Howard Florey for Australia? What The??????

He was a pharmacologist who discovered penicillin, and a Nobel winner. A great man indeed, but a really poor choice for a leader.

 

[SeelingCat]

I don't find Florey to be a stranger choice than Sappho, Hildegard or Copernicus personally. I think there is some incongruence having both political leaders and non-ruling personages in the same bucket, but at the same time from what they've been saying in the developer diary videos, it sounds like they're interested in deconstructing preconceived notions/traditions of the genre. Whether or not they succeed at that remains to be seen of course, but I think it's at least a unique take to step outside the regular cast of characters to ask who is fit to represent a culture, and what it means to 'lead.' Florey in particular I think represents that for me - I'm struck by the quote on his Wiki page from PM Menzies saying that "In terms of world well-being, Florey was the most important man ever born in Australia."

 

[Patine]

Howard Florey for Australia? What The??????

He was a pharmacologist who discovered penicillin, and a Nobel winner. A great man indeed, but a really poor choice for a leader.

I don't find Florey to be a stranger choice than Sappho, Hildegard or Copernicus personally. I think there is some incongruence having both political leaders and non-ruling personages in the same bucket, but at the same time from what they've been saying in the developer diary videos, it sounds like they're interested in deconstructing preconceived notions/traditions of the genre. Whether or not they succeed at that remains to be seen of course, but I think it's at least a unique take to step outside the regular cast of characters to ask who is fit to represent a culture, and what it means to 'lead.' Florey in particular I think represents that for me - I'm struck by the quote on his Wiki page from PM Menzies saying that "In terms of world well-being, Florey was the most important man ever born in Australia."

It's Eva Peron as a leader that gets me, to me honest.

 

[Dale]

I don't find Florey to be a stranger choice than Sappho, Hildegard or Copernicus personally. I think there is some incongruence having both political leaders and non-ruling personages in the same bucket, but at the same time from what they've been saying in the developer diary videos, it sounds like they're interested in deconstructing preconceived notions/traditions of the genre. Whether or not they succeed at that remains to be seen of course, but I think it's at least a unique take to step outside the regular cast of characters to ask who is fit to represent a culture, and what it means to 'lead.' Florey in particular I think represents that for me - I'm struck by the quote on his Wiki page from PM Menzies saying that "In terms of world well-being, Florey was the most important man ever born in Australia."

Howard Florey left Australia at the age of 23 in 1921, and apart from visiting occaisionally for ceremonial or war cabinet purposes, never returned. He lived 3/4s of his life in England, and the entirety of his career with penicillin.

Again, a great man indeed, but a really poor choice for a leader of a nation he left, and didn't want to return to.

 

[pokiehl]

Howard Florey left Australia at the age of 23 in 1921, and apart from visiting occaisionally for ceremonial or war cabinet purposes, never returned. He lived 3/4s of his life in England, and the entirety of his career with penicillin.

Again, a great man indeed, but a really poor choice for a leader of a nation he left, and didn't want to return to.

While he would be a strange choice for a game with a more traditional conception of leader like Civ, I think you’re missing the point that this game is obviously going for something different than preconceived notions of what traditional leaders are (as SC put it).

overall, he’s no stranger than some other choices they have in the game.

 

[Dale]

While he would be a strange choice for a game with a more traditional conception of leader like Civ, I think you’re missing the point that this game is obviously going for something different than preconceived notions of what traditional leaders are (as SC put it).

overall, he’s no stranger than some other choices they have in the game.

Maybe so. But at least Eva Peron, Sappho, Hildegard, and Copernicus lived and died in the countries they lead in the game.

 

[Patine]

Maybe so. But at least Eva Peron, Sappho, Hildegard, and Copernicus lived and died in the countries they lead in the game.

Though, speaking that, I can't quite remember now if Joan of Arc was burnt at the stake in England or in Burgundy (the latter which was part of France, but the Duke was allied to England, at the time).

Bolivar may be an issue, as he's in a state of contention as a proprietary national hero and leader between Colombia and Venezuela to this day, and it's even strained relations a few times, but the game has him solidly as as a, "Venezuelan," leader.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Joan was captured by the Burgundians but turned over to the English, by whom she was condemned and burned in Rouen, which was in the Duchy of Normandy. Whether that was in England or France depended on which side you were on at the time - it was one of the main contentions that kept the war going.

 

[Rac]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=409808171497458

Welp if there was still any doubt left yet, Ara indeed has the capacity to have multiple leaders per nation

 

[Rac]

Alright this last video confirmed that the Shongai leader is actually Askia Muhammad I, with that (if you don't count Eva Perón, Jonh A. Macdonald and Benito Juárez who didn't get their names shown in the UI) the only mysteries left are who is the Inca leader that seens to be an Sapa Inca, and who is the white dress East Asian lady (most likely another Korean leader). Also, Alexander is confirmed as another leader for Greece, so no Macedon this time (despite we getting an separeted HRE from Germany). So 45 leaders and 40 nations:

#​	NATION​	LEADERS​
01​	The Abbasid Caliphate​	Harun al-Rashid​
02​	The Apsáalooké​	Osh-Tisch​
03​	Argentina​	Eva Perón​
04​	The Assyrian Empire​	Sennacherib​
05​	Australia​	Howard Florey​
06​	The Aztec Empire​	Itzcoatl​
07​	Belgium​	Leopold I​
08​	The Byzantine Empire​	Irene Sarantapechaena​
09​	Canada​	John A. Macdonald​
10​	The Celts​	Boudicca​
11​	The Cherokee​	Wilma Mankiller​
12​	China​	Confucius​
13​	China​	Wu Zetian​
14​	Egypt​	Nefertiti​
15​	England​	Elizabeth I​
16​	Ethiopia​	Haile Selassie​
17​	France​	Jeanne d'Arc​
18​	Georgia​	Tamar the Great​
19​	Germany​	Hildegard of Bingen​
20​	Germany​	Otto von Bismarck​
21​	Ghana​	Yaa Asantewaa​
22​	Greece​	Alexander the Great​
23​	Greece​	Sappho​
24​	The Holy Roman Empire​	Charlemagne​
25​	The Inca Empire​	Sapa Inca Guy ?​
26​	India​	Ashoka​
27​	Italy​	Cesare Beccaria​
28​	Japan​	Tokugawa Ieyasu​
29​	Korea​	Sejong the Great​
30​	Korea​	White Dress Lady ?​
31​	Kush​	Amaniremas​
32​	Mexico​	Benito Juárez​
33​	The Mongol Empire​	Genghis Khan​
34​	The Palmyrene Empire​	Zenobia​
35​	The First Persian Empire​	Xerxes I​
36​	Poland​	Nicolas Copernicus​
37​	The Roman Empire​	Julius Caesar​
38​	Russia​	Catherine the Great​
39​	The Songhai Empire​	Askia Muhammad I​
40​	Spain​	Isabella I​
41​	Thailand​	Ram Khamhaeng​
42​	United States​	George Washington​
43​	United States​	Harriet Tubman​
44​	Venezuela​	Simón Bolívar​
45​	Zulu​	Shaka​

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

That's a very impressive starting lineup for the vanilla game

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

That's a very impressive starting lineup for the vanilla game

It will be more impressive - or not - once we find out how many and how important the various Faction and Leader differences are. So far (and I have not been following ARA in detail) I've only seen a few examples, and not knowing all the details of the game-play, couldn't evaluate them for their effectiveness.