Archer Units

[Anaztazioch]

@ Hian the Frog and Los Tirano

Stop a silly talk ? Have you ever been knocked down from a horse in full armor ? Like 2 weeks in hospital. Had some problems whith neck. Rest was only "hurt".

Get a job guys, buy a steel breast plate thick 40mm, well 35mm as this was better and fire any arrow at your chest. SEE what happens. IT is phisically impossible for it to pirce. Wont even get stuck in it. Also Plate is not flat. It not flat (round like) not to make it comfortable, or look cool. It has a point to make arrow and bolts "slide" not damage it.

Dont refer to a book only - try this. 100 punds you say right for a longbow arrow (previous posts), well a longsword whoth weight arround 5kg (10 pounds ?) was really inafective in fight against heavy armored troop. Mostly wasnt wounding (bleeding). More it was broken bones, and hurt muscles.

And if you say that plate armor was not as effective - than why it was so goddamn expensive ?

Afcourse i can be wrong, as in XV centuary steel armor was more good looking. Armor no longger had even surface, to deflect arrows. It had nubbly surface. Such armor was lighter, and better vs melee weapons, but arrows and bolts were more "deadly". End if (and only if) armoies fighting vs longbowmans used such armor, it was their folishness, and their fault to die.

Also Hian you posted:
"Sometimes, there was also some "luck" for the English: heavy rain transform the battlefield in a swamp where heavy charge were nearly impossible...."
"Of course, there was a failure in tactics for the French."
So it wasnt Only the longbow. Tired men in heavy armor is as good as dead one.

Im not saying that heavy armors are unbeatable, or "impossible to defeat. Just gonna refer again to the "greatest" battle of Polish middle ages. Grunewald 1410. Just know that Poland, Litvia and Tatars dint have heavier armor than chainmail (exept for leader that could afford such thing). But Teutonic order and Germans had plate armor + their camp was on open grassland. No shadow, and the sun was shining. They started battle whith weakened warriors. And that was 1st step to their defeat. Of course Poland, Litvia and Tatars had number advantage, but none of us had LONGBOW (mayby Tatars had Mongolish longbow, who knows).

There fore its not weapon that was winning wars, it was tactics.

Another thing for heavy armor. If you dont want to shoot at your self, just equip armor, weapon and shield, lie down on grass and try to stend up. Wonder how long it will take you to do it as "rested" "knight".

Also it has nothing to do whith my French hating. As it was said (dont remember by who) - Only the stupid can underestimate the one he hates.
And about our losing in XVIII - it hard to find the truth in our country. Only internet. Its like asking a Japanese about WW II.

 

[Los Tirano]

"Get a job guys, buy a steel breast plate thick 40mm, well 35mm as this was better and fire any arrow at your chest. SEE what happens. IT is phisically impossible for it to pirce."

As i said, obviously nobody in plate mail died, because you know better. All those nobles in their expensive plate armour, must have just fallen over and died of exhaustion, because the arrows certainly couldnt have gone through. No, this man clearly knows best! To hell with well established facts based on years of research?

And you say get a job, well to that i say get an education. If you study you will find that it is neither tactics, or weapons that entirely win wars. You are forgetting morale of the army, the enemy they are facing and morale in the home countries. And secondly the competence of the leading general, the ability of the officers, and NCO's. Of course if you read a bit more you would realize that, and we wouldnt be debating longbow effectiveness.

Grunewald. Im amazed that you are impressed by this battle. Plenty of factors on 'your' side. Bows vs heavy melee, good equipment. How many more soldiers did 'your' side have? You are so typical of an ethnic nationalist my friend. And why are you so proud when you werent there?

 

[Hian the Frog]

Anaztazioch,

Why trying to have a discussion with you ? I don't know...
Having a job ? Yes that's right. Today, i've got no job. In the last years, i was in countries at war, fighting for strange concepts such as peace or freedom (of religion, of talk), helping minorities to survive,.... You know, the job of a soldier, the guys who are trying to give peace and security to others, like you. What is frightening, and also boring, is that i also gave peace and security to "poor guys", like you it seems, who are aggressive, nationalist, religious fanatics... And, yes i love books. It was my best way to forget what i was looking everyday. My own cloud, above all this mass of sh----

So, please, if you are not enough educated or tolerant go on a polish website.
There is also many kinds of guys i don't like and i try as most as possible to shut my mouth here, in civfanatics.

The ( worked up) Frog.

 

[Anaztazioch]

@ Los Tirano

Lets end this as it seems there is no point of getting this.
Im really not a nationalist as Hian "suggests" it.

Grunewald. Im amazed that you are impressed by this battle. Plenty of factors on 'your' side. Bows vs heavy melee, good equipment. How many more soldiers did 'your' side have? You are so typical of an ethnic nationalist my friend. And why are you so proud when you werent there?

I share MY knowlage i earned in MY days. Thats school, brotherhood, hobby and some books. Pain my books were written by Polish writers. That may mean i have wrong knowlage. But the differance betwean "may" and "is" is quite large.

Same is whith your knowlage of English (Welsh the name?) longbow and battle of Cracy (lets keep it to this one ok?). Well, what happened there, no1 knows. French were defeated we know that one. English must have been proud and made some legends(or not), and Frenchman that retreated to bring bad news, made some excuse. All this made Longbow a "myth" weapon. Also all that they said could be truth.

But I really cant pirce breast plate whith longbow from 100 feet. Im not an archer/marksman. Also all my "brothers" cdnt do that. There was alsoa nd discovery channel showing that longbow (arrow whith iron ending) cannot pirce steel armor. And that program in Discovery Channel made me wonder and try thing in brotherhood.

And as it seems all i get for trying to convince you and show you "true faith" i recive insults of being nationalist

@ And Hian.
IM NOT A GODDAMN NATIONALIST !!!
And im more than Tolerant. The proof is that i havent been banned allready right . Alas for your a ex-soldier. I had a vision of your earlier posts. You seem to dont understand my posts completelly, as none of us are "perfect" in english. Meaning saying willing to say something i say another thing and you understand it as even another thing... lol

So we may actually leave it this way, as I cant convice you and you cant me.

 

[Los Tirano]

Thats how it seems to be. On a side note im not english (Australian), so im not concerned with who won at the end of the day at Crecy, i just find it very interesting, factors involved etc. And then a similar result happens later at Agincourt, the longbowmen prove their worth again.

 

[Anaztazioch]

We might ask sombody to "erase" our "barking" about longbowmans strengths and armors. Might confuse some "users".

Unless you guys dont want it to be gone.

 

[Los Tirano]

Im not a big fan of erasing things. But i have a question. What do you think guys think about the crossbow unit? I really like the values added to it, great against tin can melee and knights. Anaz, have you shot a powerful crossbow at plate armour at reinactment?

Egyptian longbowmen. I like the unit a lot, its one of the best looking units, but since it isnt actually using a longbow i think its name should change. Pharaoh's bowmen or something suitable.

 

[Anaztazioch]

Ok Tirano

But this time you HAVE to say I am right. Crossbow takes Long to reload. Dont know if it should be as strong as it is. But 1st wave can like cripple morales.

Anaz, have you shot a powerful crossbow at plate armour at reinactment?
1) such weapons are forbidden, such as twohandned mauls, any kind of spiked heavy wepaon (maces and such), kopies (dont know english name, but its a "pike" that knight use for charge attacks), crossbows, and metal gunpowder (dont know what is actually used).
2) Im still alive am i ?

Very accurate weapon, but dont know if it is effective in "rain".

Also crosbow shot from 10 metres (whith steel ending) pirces any wearable armor(not that pauldron and brest plate in fullplates have no unarmored place, giving bolt 2 surfaces to pirce. This mostly immobilies his arm, or make it painfull to move it. But no special wound). Olny hope for those that are being shot is shield(unless pirceing shield bolt hits his hand...ouch). Still crossbow even if wont pirce give a nice "knockback". Dont know if strong enought to knock rider from a horse.

I cant emagine, how crossbow whith its reload work on open battlefield.

Anyway - remember the "leaders" and "Armies" in Civilization 3 ? Why cant we implent this in Civ4. This will make archers defend thirst, than retreat, and than melee units defand. This might require great general presance or new promotion.

PS: Short for Anaztazioch is Anetrith or Anzeo.

 

[Los Tirano]

Yes i am quite aware of the flaws of the medieval crossbow and the arbalest (siege crossbow). Its a shame they are forbidden in re-enactment, i can understand why along with the very lethal spiked maces and flails.

They certainly had battlefield practicality. Found mention of crossbow units where one fired, a servant reloaded, and another servant held up a large shield to protect them. Attached is a picture of such an arrangment. Making the crossbowman a little safer. Their best benefit was their sheer power.

Although some crossbows (ancient or modern) are drawn using only the unassisted arm strength of the archer, more powerful crossbows required some sort of mechanical device to draw the string. These drawing mechanisms were of many different forms, using levers, ratchets and pulleys in various ways. The use of these devices allowed soldiers to use and fire weapons with a draw force far in excess of what they could have handled with a bow. In the later years of the crossbow it had enough kinetic energy to penetrate any chainmail and most plate armor hit squarely: some reached a draw force of nearly 350 lbf (1600 N), compared to the 60-180lbf (300-900 N) draw force for a longbow. Moreover, crossbows could be kept cocked and ready to shoot for some time with little effort, allowing crossbowmen to aim better and lessen the reaction time to fire compared to a bowman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow

Its only wikipedia, but such force behind the bolts must have skewered many a brave knight. I dont deny a good set of plate could have turned aside many would be deathblows, but a 350 lbf bolt from an arbalest (below) directed at shoulder joints, legs, groin, neck or head would put a knight down.

 

[WarKirby]

I believe crossbowmen used the environment and other troops as cover while they reloaded.

 

[Anaztazioch]

@ Los Tirano

Such big shields (lack of better word) were used in middle ages to cover archery units. Not only crossbowmans but also bowmans. But it werent good cover when sieged castle ewas defending whith catapults.

But getting to that banned crossbow from re-inacted battles. Called one of officials, and he said that crossbow is too lethal weapon. I also asked about bows (including longbows). And he said that bows are allowed only if all participaters and all horses are heavy armored (safty and animal rights). Also if we are all in heavy armor... well... only Conan could use a bow in that tuexedo .
Back to crossbows:
Took a look at 2 of my book about medival weaponary.
Crossbow you can shoot from hip (dont know if thats the name for shooting from that part of body), making it possible and accurate even in plate armor. So Crossbowmans were actually good also in melee. They could lauch a deadly 1-2 bolts at cavalary, than rech for melee weapon, or 2-4 against foot, than reack for melee. How many shots it depends on terrain and type of crossbow.

XIV - in that centuary crossbow "gained" leavers and such. Earlier you pulled it by hands.
The big shields were held by another soldier. And they were actually shields, not "movable" walls. Still uneffective vs catapult.
Also they were "catapult" crossbows. Instead for bolts, they were launching stones.
Bolts with steel ending could kill from range even 180m (longbow had 90m acording to thiss book). But "could" doesnt mean "will" . So dont go WTH after not killing sum1

Also what about flaming arrows ? Oil was used as greeks as "greek fire" that cdnt be estingest by water.

 

[Ankenaton]

Im not a big fan of erasing things. But i have a question. What do you think guys think about the crossbow unit? I really like the values added to it, great against tin can melee and knights. Anaz, have you shot a powerful crossbow at plate armour at reinactment?

Egyptian longbowmen. I like the unit a lot, its one of the best looking units, but since it isnt actually using a longbow i think its name should change. Pharaoh's bowmen or something suitable.

In another thread I make mention of Nubian Archers as a well known/used unit of Pharoah's armies. Maybe an extra promotion for accuracy such as an extra first strike?

 

[Ankenaton]

@ Los Tirano

Such big shields (lack of better word) were used in middle ages to cover archery units. Not only crossbowmans but also bowmans. But it werent good cover when sieged castle ewas defending whith catapults.

But getting to that banned crossbow from re-inacted battles. Called one of officials, and he said that crossbow is too lethal weapon. I also asked about bows (including longbows). And he said that bows are allowed only if all participaters and all horses are heavy armored (safty and animal rights). Also if we are all in heavy armor... well... only Conan could use a bow in that tuexedo .
Back to crossbows:
Took a look at 2 of my book about medival weaponary.
Crossbow you can shoot from hip (dont know if thats the name for shooting from that part of body), making it possible and accurate even in plate armor. So Crossbowmans were actually good also in melee. They could lauch a deadly 1-2 bolts at cavalary, than rech for melee weapon, or 2-4 against foot, than reack for melee. How many shots it depends on terrain and type of crossbow.

XIV - in that centuary crossbow "gained" leavers and such. Earlier you pulled it by hands.
The big shields were held by another soldier. And they were actually shields, not "movable" walls. Still uneffective vs catapult.
Also they were "catapult" crossbows. Instead for bolts, they were launching stones.
Bolts with steel ending could kill from range even 180m (longbow had 90m acording to thiss book). But "could" doesnt mean "will" . So dont go WTH after not killing sum1

Also what about flaming arrows ? Oil was used as greeks as "greek fire" that cdnt be estingest by water.

A good simulation of crossbowmen and their abilities could be found in Medieval Total War. In that game you had various crossbow units of different nationalities, strengths and levels of technology and it was fascinating watching them in action. Can not wait for Medieval Total War 2; supposedly coming out in November. I will be first in line. As a side note maybe all of us who are also interested in Medieval combat can have a multi-player game or two when it comes out?

 

[Ankenaton]

We might ask sombody to "erase" our "barking" about longbowmans strengths and armors. Might confuse some "users".

Unless you guys dont want it to be gone.

Thats alright, there is room for these kind of discussions on this forum....in fact I love these kind of discussions. By the way I remember playing the Cossacks games a couple of years ago and I remember always choosing to play as Poland. I fell in love with the medieval Winged Hussars. It was quite a sight to see them charge into battle with lances lowered as they skewered Mongol hordes or the Turkish army in battle.

 

[Anaztazioch]

falling in love in Poland. Dont tell me this now.
We had a nice situation.

A member of parlament have recorded a video when our Presidents party member (unofficially, i her private chambers) was trying to bribe other party member into joining. They used money, power, nice places in govermant and something else way beyond my skills to translate. This video was shown yesterday in TV. Today the premier (right after president in Polant goverment, well Prezident and Premier are twin brothers...) he said that this kind of talk is a normal use in politics and calling the corruption is misuse of that word...

Seems as were getting back to communism, so i have a REALLY bad mood... Pay attention to our politics as some are Really funny. Like "You should breed goose, as you cant keep track of a cow"

 

[Ankenaton]

falling in love in Poland. Dont tell me this now.
We had a nice situation.

A member of parlament have recorded a video when our Presidents party member (unofficially, i her private chambers) was trying to bribe other party member into joining. They used money, power, nice places in govermant and something else way beyond my skills to translate. This video was shown yesterday in TV. Today the premier (right after president in Polant goverment, well Prezident and Premier are twin brothers...) he said that this kind of talk is a normal use in politics and calling the corruption is misuse of that word...

Seems as were getting back to communism, so i have a REALLY bad mood... Pay attention to our politics as some are Really funny. Like "You should breed goose, as you cant keep track of a cow"

Yeah unfortunately a lot of countries are falling back into either communism or facism. I guess a lot of people would want the Cold War back right about now.

 

[Hian the Frog]

Yeah unfortunately a lot of countries are falling back into either communism or facism. I guess a lot of people would want the Cold War back right about now.

Right ! And don't forget "Religious" Republic.... Churchill was so right when he told us that Democraty is probably not the best political system, but at least the "less worst"...

The Frog.

 

[Ankenaton]

Right ! And don't forget "Religious" Republic.... Churchill was so right when he told us that Democraty is probably not the best political system, but at least the "less worst"...

The Frog.

What you do not want to live under Sharia? You are an infidel who needs to be flogged....jailed....banished.....killed.....etc.

 

[Los Tirano]

Oh Ankenaton you are so looking for trouble. I like it! Somehow Islamo-fascism doesnt seem like a good idea to me.

Dont forget beheaded.

 

[Ankenaton]

Oh Ankenaton you are so looking for trouble. I like it! Somehow Islamo-fascism doesnt seem like a good idea to me.

Dont forget beheaded.

I hear you; I better find out where Salman Rushdie is hiding so I can join him. "Off with your little head" as the Tulwar separated "The Heretic's" head from his body.