Archer Units
- Thread starter Houman
- Start date
Los Tirano
God-King
Question. Are we all sure that the Japanese never had crossbows? The bow, various types of swords, spears, and later muskets seem to be their weapons. But i am finding it hard to believe they never fielded any crossbowmen. China is a short distance away and it is known that they traded. Philosophy on warfare passed between the two and China had its very long history of cho-ko-nu soldiers, yet was this never adopted even slightly by japan?
WarKirby
Arty person
I searched for an hour for some hint of a Japanese crossbow, and all I found was a single entry on ebay which had been removed because it was fake.
China, and the Mongols had crossbows, but I don't think it ever took off in Japan.
WarKirby
China, and the Mongols had crossbows, but I don't think it ever took off in Japan.
WarKirby
You are wrong. In the emporer time they import conscription and crossbow from china. The crossbow was the standart weapon for peasants.
The noblemen still use the bow - because they had the training as clan-elite.
After the emporer time the crossbow vanished ... i could not find how long the crossbow is used in japan.
Btw. In the early and "middle" dark age the bow was the main symbol for the warriors in japan. In the late dark age the sword take the more important place.
I just read some about the china Chu-ko-nu. These crossbow can launch ten arrows in fifteen seconds.... without the power or range of a standard crossbow and with no accuracy ... but hey, it seems a powerfull short range weapon. (10 arrows in 15 seconds ... crazy)
The noblemen still use the bow - because they had the training as clan-elite.
After the emporer time the crossbow vanished ... i could not find how long the crossbow is used in japan.
Btw. In the early and "middle" dark age the bow was the main symbol for the warriors in japan. In the late dark age the sword take the more important place.
I just read some about the china Chu-ko-nu. These crossbow can launch ten arrows in fifteen seconds.... without the power or range of a standard crossbow and with no accuracy ... but hey, it seems a powerfull short range weapon. (10 arrows in 15 seconds ... crazy)
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
EMPORER TIME ?
Jamon (10 000-300 bc)
Yayoi (300bc-300ad)
Kofun (300-710ad)
Nara (710-794)
Heian (794-1185)
Kamakura (1185-1333)
Muromachi (1333-1568)
Momoyama (1568-1600)
Edo (1600-1868)
Meiji (1868-1912)
Taisho (1912-1926)
Showa (1926-1989)
Heisei (1989-now)
So what time are you refering to ?
"In the emporer time they import conscription and crossbow from china"
Even so, TR has mercenaries, and this way you can import crossbow to Japan. Also peasants as army ? Maybe self defand ?
"Btw. In the early and "middle" dark age the bow was the main symbol for the warriors in japan. In the late dark age the sword take the more important place."
Your wrong. Yes, bow and spear (yari, nigina) was main wepaon in Japanese army, most prestigeus, as swords were mostly a shord range alternative weapons, mostly becouse lack of good training (i once said how training looked in medival Japan). And yes sword becama main weapon later, but far later than late dark age as you said. After reinisance. In 1603 Takugawa become shogun and peace time bagan. He also made sword the most respective, honorable and main weapon in army.
And as you said dark ages... dark ages 476AD to 1000AD. So umm mistake or lack of knowlage ?
And if Japan language has no word for crossbow (not even crosuubou witch would be their foreign adopted word as furige-to for frigate).
As for people thinking " i just want to understand what i am reading ... the foreign language of units speaking is enough for my taste ..." why do we have Mujahid ? Is that the English word ? Or Keshik, yari ashigaru, dao cathy.
I say eighter all units should have Enlish name, or try to get their "native" name.
Wish Houman or anyone "high rank" in TR team might say jis word about it, as people will follow their word as blind sheep
Jamon (10 000-300 bc)
Yayoi (300bc-300ad)
Kofun (300-710ad)
Nara (710-794)
Heian (794-1185)
Kamakura (1185-1333)
Muromachi (1333-1568)
Momoyama (1568-1600)
Edo (1600-1868)
Meiji (1868-1912)
Taisho (1912-1926)
Showa (1926-1989)
Heisei (1989-now)
So what time are you refering to ?
"In the emporer time they import conscription and crossbow from china"
Even so, TR has mercenaries, and this way you can import crossbow to Japan. Also peasants as army ? Maybe self defand ?
"Btw. In the early and "middle" dark age the bow was the main symbol for the warriors in japan. In the late dark age the sword take the more important place."
Your wrong. Yes, bow and spear (yari, nigina) was main wepaon in Japanese army, most prestigeus, as swords were mostly a shord range alternative weapons, mostly becouse lack of good training (i once said how training looked in medival Japan). And yes sword becama main weapon later, but far later than late dark age as you said. After reinisance. In 1603 Takugawa become shogun and peace time bagan. He also made sword the most respective, honorable and main weapon in army.
And as you said dark ages... dark ages 476AD to 1000AD. So umm mistake or lack of knowlage ?
And if Japan language has no word for crossbow (not even crosuubou witch would be their foreign adopted word as furige-to for frigate).
As for people thinking " i just want to understand what i am reading ... the foreign language of units speaking is enough for my taste ..." why do we have Mujahid ? Is that the English word ? Or Keshik, yari ashigaru, dao cathy.
I say eighter all units should have Enlish name, or try to get their "native" name.
Wish Houman or anyone "high rank" in TR team might say jis word about it, as people will follow their word as blind sheep
WarKirby
Arty person
Agreed. That is waaay too vague to mean anything. And Exerior, if you're going to contradict a widely held belief, link to a credible source which can back you up. Anyone can say anything on the internet. Unless you provide proof, we have no reason to believe you.
Yup. The mercenary thing covers this perfectly.
Anaztazioch, you say he's wrong, but you fail to mention what was the most prestigious weapon in early dark ages? I understand your English is not so great but could you try to explain?
I don't have a problem with some of them, but changing the name of the katana is where I draw the line,
People tend to agree with Houman and Mexico because they do all the work and it is their mod. However I have disagreed with houman several times and I argued him into the ground on the local religions debate.Wish Houman or anyone "high rank" in TR team might say jis word about it, as people will follow their word as blind sheep
I am not a sheep.
Also, anaztazioch, when quoting people, highlight the text and press the quote button which looks like a speech bubble. This puts a box around the quote and makes it look much neater than just putting quote marks around it. Like I did.
WarKirby
WarKirby said:
I can give you the source:
http://www.tenshukaku.de/kyuba.htm
Yeah, i know that the emporer time was long - but it isn't a exact time in the source ... the only hint is the "Taika-Reform" ... but i dont know the Taika-Reform
And here the Quote out of the artice:
Source said:
Lack of language knowlage
It seems i dont know the right translation for "Mittelalter" ... maybe "middle age" ... the "Mittelalter" is going down around 1400-1700 (depends on the region)I found a reference on crossbows in english wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ichi-no-Tani
At the end of the article it is mentioned:
One thing for sure: The crossbow don't get the important role in japan, as he has in europe. (aaaahhhh, awful english)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ichi-no-Tani
At the end of the article it is mentioned:
One thing for sure: The crossbow don't get the important role in japan, as he has in europe. (aaaahhhh, awful english)
Anaztazioch said:
I understand Mujahid ... don't know why ... it seems to be neither english nor german. But the others i don't get. And if i talk with friends about Civ4 (what i do a lot), i cannot remember the foreign names like "yari ashigaru" and don't get an image out of the name for the unit ... then i have to desribe the unit "japanese swordsmen" and i will do it in my brain ...
Spartan117
Immortal
Exerior said:
you probably know because mujahid were fighting in the crusades.
I like the idea of the real foreign names, I still know what they replace so I will refer to them as a japanese swordsmen. I also talk alot about civ to friends.
The only potential problems i see is the difficulty for getting the names for many units that should get them and (minor problem)maybe the difficulty of not realizing what the unit is in your enemy's "stack" of units(this can be resolved by actually looking at the strenght and attributes when you mouse over/ gives you an idea of the units)
If foreign names were added, you would probably get used to some of the names after playing a while. Foreign names creates a more ethnic feel, i think.
@houman
i like the idea, changed the name of the hyspatist unit with shortswordsmen.
WarKirby
Arty person
Exerior: I looked at your source, and it was all in german. aagh.
Thankfully, babelfish was there to help and I had it translated in no time. It spoke of a weapon named the Arm Chest which was imported from China. I assume this is the crossbow?
WarKirby
Thankfully, babelfish was there to help and I had it translated in no time. It spoke of a weapon named the Arm Chest which was imported from China. I assume this is the crossbow?
WarKirby
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
Spoiler :
No info about quanity/quality of crossbow. Also allowing Japan to build crossbowmans is like allowing Cristians to build Mujahids... And gave myn slef a tought to forbid building a religious units in city whith more than just state religion.
Also check this : http://www.answers.com/topic/japanese-era-name
Here u got every era last 4 years, are they eras ? Too short to call them that.
And not that crossbow in Ichi-no-Tani is mentioned only in wikipedia and sites that refers to wikipedia source (exact copy). So its like only source. Note that Minamoto force had 3000? and Teira clan had 5000? soldiers. Also spear, sword and bow was honorary weapon and according to Bushido they had to use them, leaving only mercenaries whith crossbow, or some Ronin. Next is not that crossbow, even if existed in japan it was very rare, hard to obtain, shameful to create, therefore must have been expansive leaving only rich a possability to afford. Dont think ronin had money to buy one. Some ninja could use them, but they relied more on stealth, infiltration, assassination rather than siege...
Now off to
@ WarKirby
1) Saying i was wrong is giving the time he said about making sword prestigeus. Late dark ages are 900-1000ad, and it was Ieyasu Tokugawa who made katana and wakizashi more prestigeaus than daikyu. Ieyasu lived in 1542-1616.
2) As for the line whith changing katana name. Note that katana was not the only sword used in combat. Wakizashi, katana, tanto, taisho, daito, no-dachi. All were used in heian. TR has katana ashigaru in ending of Jomon.
More :
The Japanese ashigaru (足軽
were conscripted foot-soldiers of medieval Japan. During the Muromachi period, ashigaru were employed by the shogun as his personal army.Ashigaru (literally "light-foot", but the word most likely stems from "light armored")
At first the ashigaru were mercenaries or adventurers who were paid only in loot, but eventually some of them became part of local armies as retained warriors. Those who were given control of ashigaru were called ashigarugashira (足軽頭
, (literally "ashigaru head"), and were provided with an annual stipend of 200 to 500 koku.So naming most of Japan units ashigaru is missing whith history right ?
And as for that quotes.. well im mostly using quick replys.
@ Spartan117
Spoiler :
Well it better i say
. Not every army knew whom they shall face. Some times it was a suprice. Like for Incas, lets kill that Spanians, they got no weapons, only some sabres and metal spears (muskets whith bayonet). And than go OMFG they got boomsticks from hell !!! I say that the less u "know" the game, the better it is
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
And clicking this "quote" crashes all of my web browsers (iexplorer, opera, mozilla)
Interesting as I was recently thinking about archers, catapults, etc.
I wondered if in real life the environment had an effect. That is if the environment is forest then bombard is not possible. If on a hill (not forested) bombard is much more effective.
Back to archers. I suggest archers have the ability to bombard units (but not city walls) if in an open area (ie not forests or jungles) and after the bombard action allowed to move. The bombard action is only on a single unit of course.
Longbowmen should have more effective bombard action as archers but essentially the same actions.
Catapaults etc do not have the ability to move after their bombard actions and do have collateral damage ability.
But all bombard actions are negated if in forest of jungle terrain. Perhaps this should be if the target is in forest of jungle terrain (like the archer is in the edge of a forest targeting a foe who is in open terrain.
I wondered if in real life the environment had an effect. That is if the environment is forest then bombard is not possible. If on a hill (not forested) bombard is much more effective.
Back to archers. I suggest archers have the ability to bombard units (but not city walls) if in an open area (ie not forests or jungles) and after the bombard action allowed to move. The bombard action is only on a single unit of course.
Longbowmen should have more effective bombard action as archers but essentially the same actions.
Catapaults etc do not have the ability to move after their bombard actions and do have collateral damage ability.
But all bombard actions are negated if in forest of jungle terrain. Perhaps this should be if the target is in forest of jungle terrain (like the archer is in the edge of a forest targeting a foe who is in open terrain.
Anaztazioch
Hit in the head too much
Note that one title is one city. Shoot an arrow from one side of town to the other... Impossible. Longbow has effective range of 80 feet, but its max range can go even up to 160 (perfect bow, angle and wind + arrow). still 160 feet, think how many houses can fit in that ? Not to mention whole town not just settlement. So archers shouldnt have bombard ability + dales couses CTD.
Im also agains early siege weapons to have bombard (exept city). Trechuberts - dont know their range. Now cannon, artillery, these should have ranged. But that is not archery but gunpowder and siege.
Im also agains early siege weapons to have bombard (exept city). Trechuberts - dont know their range. Now cannon, artillery, these should have ranged. But that is not archery but gunpowder and siege.
As a good trained archer you are able shoot (in a bombard style) much further then 160 feet.
Today the sport archers shoot at 80m on targets as big as beermat (10x10cm). Of course without visor this isn't possible, but a army is bigger ^^.
Wikipedia say this (the range of bow is realistic - says my experience with bows):
English longbow has a effective range around 165 to 228 m (Keyword "English longbows") - if you read a little more about bows you will read, that the "volley attack" / bombard is estimated a little higher.
Trebuchet has a max range around 275 m (Keyword "Trebuchet")
Today the sport archers shoot at 80m on targets as big as beermat (10x10cm). Of course without visor this isn't possible, but a army is bigger ^^.
Wikipedia say this (the range of bow is realistic - says my experience with bows):
English longbow has a effective range around 165 to 228 m (Keyword "English longbows") - if you read a little more about bows you will read, that the "volley attack" / bombard is estimated a little higher.
Trebuchet has a max range around 275 m (Keyword "Trebuchet")
Spartan117
Immortal
Exerior said:
that is what i wass just about to say.
165-228M> much more than 160 feet
Spartan: we think the same way
I suggest to let only high range units bombard from the start. Some need a promotion, others cannot learn it.
Archer - only with promotion
Longbow - yes
horsearcher - no
Crossbow - no
Musket - no
Rifler - only with promotion (or yes ... not sure about it)
Marin - yes
Tank - yes
....
And i think these units can have bombard. They don't have to shoot a city far. If the enemy is at next title, they can go in range, shoot and fall back. Most time the enemy units just moved next to your unit or dont flee from your units. So it means more or less they want to confront your units.
Also nice would be a high range bombard for later siege units (and battleships!) - say 2 titles. This way you can hold your siege units behind your main line, might get nice tactical deep.
I suggest to let only high range units bombard from the start. Some need a promotion, others cannot learn it.
Archer - only with promotion
Longbow - yes
horsearcher - no
Crossbow - no
Musket - no
Rifler - only with promotion (or yes ... not sure about it)
Marin - yes
Tank - yes
....
And i think these units can have bombard. They don't have to shoot a city far. If the enemy is at next title, they can go in range, shoot and fall back. Most time the enemy units just moved next to your unit or dont flee from your units. So it means more or less they want to confront your units.
Also nice would be a high range bombard for later siege units (and battleships!) - say 2 titles. This way you can hold your siege units behind your main line, might get nice tactical deep.
WarKirby
Arty person
@Exerior: I proposed this exact same thing a while back, and got shouted down for the same reasons.
But you have the figures to prove it, and I back archer bombardment 100%.
However, riflemen and marines? I think not. You can only throw a grenade so far, and you can shoot farther.
Also, I think it should be available to horse archers with a promotion. And I agee with tanks too.
WarKirby
But you have the figures to prove it, and I back archer bombardment 100%.
However, riflemen and marines? I think not. You can only throw a grenade so far, and you can shoot farther.
Also, I think it should be available to horse archers with a promotion. And I agee with tanks too.
WarKirby
