ARCHIVED: Discussion Topic - Technology

[DJ Bonebraker]

Yeah, I suppose we could make-do with Nub-Shoggoth instead of Cthulhu.

 

[jlvfr]

Two recent movies used concepts that look a lot like the author was thinking about steampunk:

"Stardust". Yes, I realize it's a fantasy/magic movie, but check out captain's Shakespeare Flying Ship catching lightnings for sale...

"The Golden Compass": text book steampunk/tesla/pseudo arcane! Flying ships and horseless carriages powered by... something that glows blue!?

In books, you can check out the "Mortal Engines Quartet" by Philip Reeve (first book is "Mortal Engines"). The characters and action is a bit... flat and simplistic (it was written for younger readers) but the whole basic concept is fantastic: is a far far future, most of Earth has been ruined by war, so the great cities have become nomads, by turning into MASSIVE steam/oil powered tanks. That's right! others have taken to the sea and become city-sized ships...

The city of London (where we start) is a good example: it moves around on gigantic caterpilars, and like most cities, it survives by hunting down and "eating" (ie, demolishing and pilaging the parts of) any city smaller than itself. The only trade is carried out by airships (of which there are many types), many home-ported in a flying city/dirigible (NO smoking allowed!!)

 

[Blue Monkey]

I've been admiring Balthasar's 'pedia entries for the civs & it occurred to me to do the same for any of my tech icons (or wonders) that will end up in the mod. Let me know which, if any, you would like entries for.

 

[KingArthur]

BM - excellent. Still working and reworking the tech tree but these techs are definitely in there:

Invention; Diving Dress; Sub Aquatics; Ballooning; Indoor Plumbing; Gas Light; Interplanetary Flight; Lunar Voyage; Theory of Aetheric Flight; Observational Astronomy; Aeronef; Safari; Archaeology; Egyptology; Cryptozoology; Revivification; Artificed Man; Analytical Engineering; Powered Articulation; Steam Botics; Analog Programming

 

[Blue Monkey]

How's this, for example?

Spoiler :

Diving Dress

"Closed" dress, where the helmet is sealed to the suit making the suit watertight, was invented by Augustus Siebe in 1837. The helmet could not flood no matter how the diver moved, resulting in safer and more efficient underwater work.

A standard diving dress consists of a metallic diving helmet, an air line from a surface supplied diving air pump, a canvas diving suit, diving knife and boots. The weight of the helmet (even filled with air) would raise the diver's centre of gravity above his centre of buoyancy, thus tending to stand him on his head. This undesired consequence is prevented by the addition of lead weights, generally on the chest, back and boots.

This type of diving equipment is also known as hard-hat equipment or a "John Brown" rig, so-called after the British company that built many of the helmets. John Brown & Co., of Clydebank, West Dunbartonshire, Scotland, were also responsible for the construction of many notable warships & liners.

It is worth noting that Harry Houdini held a patent for an improved design of diving dress which was much easier to take on & off, and better handled the water pressure.

Too long? Too mundane?

 

[KingArthur]

No that's good BM. The only thing I'd say for future is to try to employ the language and style of the period perhaps as a reporter would of a new wonderous invention or an inventor presenting his invention to the Royal Society or as written in a journal or transactions. I will try to rustle up some examples but I'm sure you know the sort of thing well yourself.

 

[Blue Monkey]

No that's good BM. The only thing I'd say for future is to try to employ the language and style of the period perhaps as a reporter would of a new wonderous invention or an inventor presenting his invention to the Royal Society or as written in a journal or transactions. I will try to rustle up some examples but I'm sure you know the sort of thing well yourself.

That I can do. Techs like "Theory of Aetheric Flight" will be simple to clothe in such verbiage. I'll probably be posting them in small groups, as time allows, including a revision of the sample.

 

[jlvfr]

Omg!
Guys, look at this. A belgium drew up the Internet... in 1934!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/science/17mund.html?ref=technology

 

[Blue Monkey]

One of the techs in the set I made was Cliology - what Asimov called psychohistory. I had in mind Analytical Engineering and Secret Bureau as prereqs for the tech. Perhaps Cliology could allow the building of a wonder that autoproduces a spy/ranged observer type unit (invisible? Dr. Who-ish?) & also provides one of those social engineering type adjustments (+ happiness/ - war weariness).

Here's an article calling for the development of cliodynamics - a discipline studying the past in a more rigorous way in order to make decisions that will affect the future. Another example of the truth being stranger than fiction?

 

[KingArthur]

Revamped Tech Trees are up on the first post and awaiting feedback.

Balthasar and I have been working on these full time for the last few weeks now and we are both happy with the results. We owe Blue Monkey a big debt of thanks for the inspiration we drew from his Tech Icon bundle - without which we'd have struggled to get a detailed 4 Era Tech Tree. We hope Blue that you'll be able to fill in a few of the missing icons for us We'd also welcome offers from folks willing to write pedia entries for the techs.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Revamped Tech Trees are up on the first post and awaiting feedback.

Balthasar and I have been working on these full time for the last few weeks now and we are both happy with the results. We owe Blue Monkey a big debt of thanks for the inspiration we drew from his Tech Icon bundle - without which we'd have struggled to get a detailed 4 Era Tech Tree. We hope Blue that you'll be able to fill in a few of the missing icons for us We'd also welcome offers from folks willing to write pedia entries for the techs.

I've just downloaded the images & will peruse them this evening. I'll see what I can come up with for the needed tech icons. I'll also happily try my hand at some pedia entries.

I had a thought the other day about a suitably Steam Punk Pedia - in the older versions of the Encyclopedia Britannica the entries were individually written by suitable authorities. Many of the articles bore the author's name or initials at the end. " – Prof. M* " for example. It might be fun to let those writing entries include a suitable nom de guerre at the end of their article. Mine would appear under the name of "Prof. Symian Azul" as in the Pandectual Garland thread. I think this, combined with your suggestion of adopting a style similar to period journalism, would make for an attractive & enjoyable read.

 

[KingArthur]

I think that's a splendid idea for the pedia entries. And thanks for taking time to look over the needed tech icons.

Just to update everyone I've now posted the buildings list on the first post too - be sure to get it.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Expect multiple posts from me if no one comes between my thoughts over the next while.

Here's a list of the techs I see that lack any image on your tree:

Bartitsu *
Turbines
Armaments Industry *
Air Tactics
Stratospheric Flight *
Landships *
Armoured Bulkheads
Wireless Telegraphy
Mesmerism
Asylum Districts
Mechatronics

Those with asterix I'm pretty sure I've got images for; most of the rest I can poke around & come up with something if no else does so first.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Quite an impressive leap forward on the mod! Evidently you and Balthasar have been busy little bees with the PMs. Here are some random notes arranged by era. No criticisms - just questions & suggestions:



Era One

But, Holmes...

• Why did you choose not to use this icon (see first image at bottom of post) in connection with the Fakir unit? I’m sure we can think of a more suitable name for the tech if you wish. “Indian Rope Trick”, for example.
  
• I’m also lost on the train of thought you followed to put Big Ben as World-wide Commerce.
  
• The name “Applied Science” doesn’t work for me, and doesn’t seem to fit the Victorian division between the Upper Class Scientist, and the Middle to Working Class Engineer. I was also thinking of the 20th C. division between theoretical & experimental physics. So my suggestions are - “Experimental Engineering” or “Theoretical Mechanics” for that icon. Or else “Practical Invention” with the Invention icon. (see second image at bottom of post)
  
• Another possibility for a special character unit: I was looking at the visual proximity of “Lost Worlds” & “Secret Bureau” on the diagram. The original of the “Lost Worlds” was from a drawing by Sir Thomas Stamford Bingley Raffles. Conflate him with the various fictitious “gentleman thief” Raffles & you’ve got a real Bond - “creeping about for Queen & Empire!” Actually I think the character is more of a perfect blend of Flashman & the Saint.
  
• Who, or what, is Ebba?

Ripping Good!

• Clever use there of the Vaudeville Icon with the “West End” tech. And I can think of no better place than that for Spring-Heeled Jack.
  
• Plotinus, please put that winged commando model into your production queue!

Era Two

But, Holmes...

• Under “Cliology” I’d change the name of the wonder to “Predictive Engine” since it is an advanced Analytical Engine.
  
• you’ve got the Steam Tank unit twice - in Era 2 under the “Armoured Phaeton” tech, and in Era 3 under “Landships”. Perhaps “Kriegs-Moloch” & its Land Battleship should shift to Era 3 and take the place of “Landships”.
  
• Actually, I’ve already been working on a Bartitsu icon.

Ripping Good!

• Love that you repurposed “Sunday In The Park” to the “5 Day Work Week” tech.
  
• I really didn’t think “Secularized Holidays” would find a practical use when I made it. That’s a very Dickensian spot for the “Christmas Carol” wonder.

Era Three

But, Holmes...

• I notice you’ve got Freud as the icon for Psychiatry. Perhaps the Psychiatry icon I made could be used for the “Asylum District” tech? (see third image at bottom of post). Perhaps you want one more closely related to the hospital/infirmary idea? I’ll look for a good image. Maybe something to do with Pasteur or Lister?

Era Four

But, Holmes...

• “Victoria’s Jubilee” - Wouldn’t “Golden Jubilee” or “Diamond Jubilee” make it more fitting for the other civs as well?
  
• Seeing “Wild West Show” as a wonder reminded me to tell you that I still have many of the raw images used for techs. It would be straightforward to make a wonder splash from that beginning point.

Ripping Good!

• It looks like you’ve got a time machine as the “spaceship race” victory condition!

All in all a “Wow! There goes my relaxing weekend!” postal challenge.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Had you considered repurposing "Aerodynamics" for "Stratospheric Flight"?

 

[Blue Monkey]

As I develop some tech icons I'll post previews for approval. The ones that are accepted I'll add to what will get posted as a complete new set once I've made as many as you need.

First up, two versions of Bartitsu, both based on contemporary advertising by E. W. Barton-Wright.

Next are two versions of Armaments Industry, one featuring ACW artillery ordinance, the other ACW grenades.

Those two I had been working on for some time, and am fairly happy with. My last offering for now is "Mesmerism", based on an advertising image for "The Prestige".

waddayathunk?

 

[Balthasar]

Quite an impressive leap forward on the mod! Evidently you and Balthasar have been busy little bees with the PMs.

You have no idea....

Here are some random notes arranged by era. No criticisms - just questions & suggestions:

With King Arthur's permission, I think I can answer some of these questions based on our conversations (sorry in advance if I get long winded):

* Why did you choose not to use this icon (see first image at bottom of post) in connection with the Fakir unit? I’m sure we can think of a more suitable name for the tech if you wish. “Indian Rope Trick”, for example.

I like the idea of having a tech named Prestigidation at this point. It derives from the West End in the sense that it was exotic entertainment - stage magic. That's what the icon portrays, beautifully. It also serves as a suitable precursor to Fortean Investigations and its successors. As for placing the Fakir unit there, I had heard once that the word Fake had derived from the habit of stage magicians to pose as "mystics from the east" - including Fakirs - to enhance their act. Although I can find no proof that this is true (or false), it seemed, nonetheless, too good a pun to abandon, and the unit is a good one here, too.

* I’m also lost on the train of thought you followed to put Big Ben as World-wide Commerce.

The truth is, it's because I couldn't think of any other symbol for it. I'm probably influenced by the large number of "international commerce" programs that I've seen that use Big Ben iconically for just this purpose.

* The name “Applied Science” doesn’t work for me, and doesn’t seem to fit the Victorian division between the Upper Class Scientist, and the Middle to Working Class Engineer. I was also thinking of the 20th C. division between theoretical & experimental physics. So my suggestions are - “Experimental Engineering” or “Theoretical Mechanics” for that icon. Or else “Practical Invention” with the Invention icon. (see second image at bottom of post)

"Practical Invention" would be a synonym, but, to be honest, I'm not sold on that icon.

I've always thought that the 19th century was marked by the breakdown of the informal system of science that prevailed in the 18th century, which was determined, as you say, by a class structure that separated scientists from engineers. That line blurred with the ascendancy of Applied Science, wherein the latest scientific discoveries were made almost immediately available to the masses in tangible form - Railroads, telegraphs, etc., rather than remain theoretical and inaccessible to all but the informed few. Tom Edison, for example, was no aristocrat.

* Another possibility for a special character unit: I was looking at the visual proximity of “Lost Worlds” & “Secret Bureau” on the diagram. The original of the “Lost Worlds” was from a drawing by Sir Thomas Stamford Bingley Raffles. Conflate him with the various fictitious “gentleman thief” Raffles & you’ve got a real Bond - “creeping about for Queen & Empire!” Actually I think the character is more of a perfect blend of Flashman & the Saint.

Believe me, I looked and looked for a way to get Raffles (and Racombole, and LeCoq, and John Devil, etc.) into this. In the end it was a balancing act between working with existing units, maintaining balance between the League of Gentlemen (the LOG) and the Evil Secret Society (the ESS), and avoiding units that looked alike, or duplicated each others' character.

* Who, or what, is Ebba?

The Ebba was the pirate ship/submarine used by Verne's character Ker Kerraje.
It is intended to be the ESS equivalent of the Nautilus.

Perhaps it would be a good idea at this point to provide some character sketches for some of the the less well known characters, in order of appearance (you may already know these):

The Ebba - the ship/submarine of Ker Kerraje - A pirate similar to Nemo, but purely evil. {Verne} ESS
Carnacki - Late era Supernatural Detective {William Hope Hodgson} LOG
Professor Schultze - a proto-hitler in the 1800's! {Verne} ESS
Dr. Mabuse - evil hypnotist shapeshifter {Fritz Lang} ESS
Mors' Airship - Airship of Captain Mors, a.k.a. "Der Luftpirat" a penny dreadful villain {several authors} ESS
Dr. Caligari - Evil hypnotist (somnambulist) with a zombie-like assistant. {from film The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari} ESS
The Albatross - Airship of Robur the Conquerer {Verne} LOG
Carmilla (Countess Mircalla Karstein) - lesbian Vampiress, predates Dracula, takes the form of a black cat rather than bat. {Le Fanu} ESS
Fulgerator - a victorian weapon of Mass Destruction. See Ebba.
Rotwang's Robot - C.A. Rotwang was the evil scientist in Fritz Lang's Metropolis {Fritz Lang} ESS

You'll notice that the "special characters", as we called them, are generally paired: Quartermaine = Mummy, Nemo = Kerraje, Van Helsing = Dracula. It's not exact, but there are just as many SPs for the ESS as for the LOG overall.


* you’ve got the Steam Tank unit twice - in Era 2 under the “Armoured Phaeton” tech, and in Era 3 under “Landships”. Perhaps “Kriegs-Moloch” & its Land Battleship should shift to Era 3 and take the place of “Landships”.

I think they're two different Steam Tanks; the era 3 Tank is more advanced.

* Actually, I’ve already been working on a Bartitsu icon.

cool.


* I notice you’ve got Freud as the icon for Psychiatry. Perhaps the Psychiatry icon I made could be used for the “Asylum District” tech? (see third image at bottom of post). Perhaps you want one more closely related to the hospital/infirmary idea? Yes, see below. I’ll look for a good image. Maybe something to do with Pasteur or Lister?

Following the public scandal of the death of a pauper named Timothy Daly in Holborn Workhouse, social reformers, including Florence Nightengale, pressed for changes in the law that resulted in the Metropolitan Act of 1867 and the establishment of the Sick Asylum Districts, which finally separated the infirmaries, the asylums, the Orphanages, and the Poor houses and provided standards of nursing for the infirmaries that resulted in tremendous improvement in public health. Nightengale's promotion of sanitary practices were a major contributor to this success. Ironically, her resistance to the idea of airborne contagion probably delayed reforms that would have, and later did, save thousands more lives.

I was using these images for placeholders:

Spoiler :

Hope that helps generate some ideas.

* “Victoria’s Jubilee” - Wouldn’t “Golden Jubilee” or “Diamond Jubilee” make it more fitting for the other civs as well?

It is actually Victoria's Golden Jubilee that is referred to in this tech, so you've got a point.

* Seeing “Wild West Show” as a wonder reminded me to tell you that I still have many of the raw images used for techs. It would be straightforward to make a wonder splash from that beginning point.

Also Cool. If we're starting from scratch, can we make the Wonders in the wider format? Pretty Please?


* It looks like you’ve got a time machine as the “spaceship race” victory condition!

And you can thank all of your time-techs for the inspiration!

PS: just saw the new tech icons. I like!

 

[KingArthur]

My comments in red below.

Quite an impressive leap forward on the mod! Evidently you and Balthasar have been busy little bees with the PMs.

You have no idea....


KA: ~91 emails since mid July.


Here are some random notes arranged by era. No criticisms - just questions & suggestions:

With King Arthur's permission, I think I can answer some of these questions based on our conversations (sorry in advance if I get long winded):

* Why did you choose not to use this icon (see first image at bottom of post) in connection with the Fakir unit? I’m sure we can think of a more suitable name for the tech if you wish. “Indian Rope Trick”, for example.

I like the idea of having a tech named Prestigidation at this point. It derives from the West End in the sense that it was exotic entertainment - stage magic. That's what the icon portrays, beautifully. It also serves as a suitable precursor to Fortean Investigations and its successors. As for placing the Fakir unit there, I had heard once that the word Fake had derived from the habit of stage magicians to pose as "mystics from the east" - including Fakirs - to enhance their act. Although I can find no proof that this is true (or false), it seemed, nonetheless, too good a pun to abandon, and the unit is a good one here, too.


KA: The Fakir unit is definitely supposed to be a Fake Fakir as Balthasar describes above. Ideally, I'd have preferred a Stage Magician unit but the Fakir makes a decent and plausible compromise.



* The name “Applied Science” doesn’t work for me, and doesn’t seem to fit the Victorian division between the Upper Class Scientist, and the Middle to Working Class Engineer. I was also thinking of the 20th C. division between theoretical & experimental physics. So my suggestions are - “Experimental Engineering” or “Theoretical Mechanics” for that icon. Or else “Practical Invention” with the Invention icon. (see second image at bottom of post)

"Practical Invention" would be a synonym, but, to be honest, I'm not sold on that icon.


KA: I quite like the name Practical Invention too but not so much the icon.


* you’ve got the Steam Tank unit twice - in Era 2 under the “Armoured Phaeton” tech, and in Era 3 under “Landships”. Perhaps “Kriegs-Moloch” & its Land Battleship should shift to Era 3 and take the place of “Landships”.

I think they're two different Steam Tanks; the era 3 Tank is more advanced.


KA: Yes. The Era 2 Steam Tank uses aaglo's Empire Steam Tank, wherea the Era 3 Steam Tank uses Hikaro's much meaner looking tank. The name of on should be changed in order to differentiate them. Armoured Phaeton is a good enough name for the tech and unit in Era 2. Neither unit really fits with my idea of a land ship so again compromise was made. If someone would like to make a Landship like this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74662&d=1101072496 = I'd be very happy



* “Victoria’s Jubilee” - Wouldn’t “Golden Jubilee” or “Diamond Jubilee” make it more fitting for the other civs as well?

It is actually Victoria's Golden Jubilee which is referred to in this tech, so you've got a point.


KA: Yes good point. I suggest it should be changed to "Victoria's Golden Jubilee" for sake of clarity. This is an example of what can be termed an "Event Tech". In other words it's not really a technology in the conventional sense but an important event that has an inescapable effect on other civs. It's effects could be be many and varied to suit our needs. For example, we could have introduced an Assassin unit for the ESS or this could have appeared with Victoria's Coronation (which is another example of an event tech). Civs will of course "reach" the tech at different times but this can be rationalised as the time that they choose to celebrate the event.

 

[KingArthur]

That could work. I think we should use it.

Had you considered repurposing "Aerodynamics" for "Stratospheric Flight"?

 

[KingArthur]

Thanks Blue. I like the second ones out of Bartitsu and Armaments. The Mesmerism one is great - I am feeling sleepy just looking at it

Another missing icon for the list is Portable Beam Weaponry.

Cheers
KA

As I develop some tech icons I'll post previews for approval. The ones that are accepted I'll add to what will get posted as a complete new set once I've made as many as you need.

First up, two versions of Bartitsu, both based on contemporary advertising by E. W. Barton-Wright.

Next are two versions of Armaments Industry, one featuring ACW artillery ordinance, the other ACW grenades.

Those two I had been working on for some time, and am fairly happy with. My last offering for now is "Mesmerism", based on an advertising image for "The Prestige".

waddayathunk?