ARCHIVED: Discussion Topic - Unit Lines

[Necropolis]

i dont want to see the turtle submarine as a unit. it was only used one time in history id rather see the hunley submarine as the first type of submarine in this mod pack casue turtle was only used one time back in the late 1700's against the british in the war for independence. and we all know the late 1700's is not considered part of the steam punk era. is see steam punk era as from 1830 to 1960.

 

[Balthasar]

All of the current units in the mod are posted >here< Necropolis. The turtle sub was dropped in favor of the Fulton Sub as the generic submarine. It happens that the British can also build a Hunley.

There are currently 512 units in this mod, and some custom units are still being made. Variety is not currently our problem.

Your definition of "the Steam punk era" could use some refining, though there is no authoritative definition one can point to. The Steam Engine wiki points out that there were steam machines that date back to the first century, and that the first piston steam engine dates back to 1690. There is also a category of Clockwork-punk that stretches the genre back to Leonardo Da Vinci and earlier.

On the other hand, there is also the whole "World of Tomorrow" genre with Googie architecture. This is often mixed with "Diesel-punk" which idealizes mid 20th century realism and Art-Deco.

For the purposes of this mod, we've tried to limit it to the Victorian and early Edwardian age (1837 - 1913 or so). Obviously, this is alternative history, so there are plenty of deliberate anachronisms (and some that aren't so deliberate - c'est la vie). What's important here is that it's sort of a celebration of 19th (and very early 20th) century fiction. As I've said elsewhere, Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen was only the starting point. Your definition of steampunk extending into the 1960's may be based on Moore's The Black Dossier that extends his story further into the 20th century, but that doesn't extend the whole steampunk genre that far out by any means.

 

[Necropolis]

oh thanks for informing me that the turtle sub is out, ill look this over and see if i can give more imput. no its not exstending to the 1960's plural more like saying on January ,1 ,1960 steam punk is over. and this is cause i think that the 1950's was still like steam punk they were still useing steam locomotives in some countries which is beside the point. and also thos primitive computers were making it less steam punk age. but you once said you would get to a sequel of this mod pack and i wanted to get into the flash gordon part of the game.

obviusly it ends at some point casue now we live in Cyber punk age and in that age computers and high tech is the way.

 

[Blue Monkey]

obviusly it ends at some point casue now we live in Cyber punk age and in that age computers and high tech is the way.

Quoted for truth:

Obviously, this is alternative history, ... What's important here is that it's sort of a celebration of 19th (and very early 20th) century fiction.

 

[Takhisis]

And so, being alternative history, we could be in a steam-powered age lasting a thousand years.

 

[Ozymandias]

And so, being alternative history, we could be in a steam-powered age lasting a thousand years.

Recall that Hero invented his steam engine over 2,000 years ago. It was materials science that was lacking, ottherwise Alex the Great might have built a railroad to Persia, or at least tooled around in steamships

 

[Necropolis]

ok well i understan that there was a steam machine built by a inventer 2 thousand years ago but it was only a exsperiment to see if steam could actually move objects. perhaps the reason why they invented the contraption was because they had weather storms and noticed that after a thunder storm that trees got knocked over and wanted to see if they could harness man made wind in some way on a small scale.

all im saying is bathasthar is leading us in a direction where theres two specific steam punk parts of his mod pack theres the early part from say 1800 to 1900 and a second part from 1900 to 1960 turns could last for 1 year and some techs could be starting techs like basic things we need like irrigation and mining. but i difinatly want there to be rocket ship , a flash gordon caracter , emperor ming , and the moon civilization and the mars civilization. we have to agree on a shorter steam punk time line casue primitive machines like a steam contraption in the 1st century and the idea of gears and pullys were all just ideas that could not get put into action till more recent times in recent centuries. i heard there was a pre steam punk age before 1800 called clock work punk where mechanical gears were invented to make clocks. basically more techs could have come to us now if it wasint for the great library wonder getting destroys a thousand years or so ago. but if i was in charge i would limit steam punk age to 1800 to 1960 or 1965 at the latest. if the markers can utilize the unit lines efectively then we could combine the two parts of our steam punk ideas the 19th century plus the first 60 years of the 20th century.

besides the point as far as human ages of civilization go this is how its divided by historians
4000 to 600 BC -Ancient
600 BC to 500 AD classical
500 AD to 1500 Middle
1500 AD to present modern and recent ages

 

[Balthasar]

This mod begins on Boxing Day, just after the coronation of Victoria in 1837:

Spoiler :

A terrible curse has befallen our dear England! The rest of the world has completely disappeared without a trace. Even dear Ireland has dissolved or sunk into the sea, as has the European continent and presumably, the rest of the world. Our ships can travel just a short distance before sinking, and the Queen has had to issue an edict forbidding all further attempts at breaching the barrier lest we lose our entire Navy. In the meantime, a state of anarchy has broken out in several major cities, which will soon be under the control of major criminal syndicates which have used this crises as an opportunity to seize power. These evil opportunists include the Blackcoats, a european criminal syndicate run by the mysterious John Devil, and the Malum Sodalitas (which is latin for "Evil Secret Society"), reportedly under the control of an Oxford professor named Moriarty. Our small band, the League of Gentlemen, has allied with the Crown to try to restore order to our land, and to figure out a way to restore the world to its previous state. We have only our own faculties, the land below us and the heavens above us in which to find our answer...

-- P. Fogg December 26, 1837

P.S. Evidence that these are indeed dangerous times: I am informed that there has been an increase in supernatural occurrence in the countryside and that the undead, sensing our widespread despair, have returned to feast on our misery. Just what we need right now - vampires!

That should settle it.

 

[jlvfr]

This mod begins on Boxing Day, just after the coronation of Victoria in 1837:

That should settle it.

Did you write this, or is it from a book? Cause it's awesome


Gief mod!

 

[Plotinus]

Recall that Hero invented his steam engine over 2,000 years ago. It was materials science that was lacking, ottherwise Alex the Great might have built a railroad to Persia, or at least tooled around in steamships

It wasn't just materials science that was lacking - they also lacked the recognition that steam power could be used for anything useful. Hero's so-called steam engine was just a revolving kettle, quite different in operation from modern steam engines; there's no evidence that Hero or anyone else regarded it, even in principle, as anything more than a toy. After all, they didn't know why the jets of steam caused the kettle to rotate, because they didn't have Newton's laws of motion.

 

[Takhisis]

Recall that Hero invented his steam engine over 2,000 years ago. It was materials science that was lacking, ottherwise Alex the Great might have built a railroad to Persia, or at least tooled around in steamships

Oh but he always does in civ III…

This mod begins on Boxing Day, just after the coronation of Victoria in 1837:

Spoiler :

A terrible curse has befallen our dear England! The rest of the world has completely disappeared without a trace. Even dear Ireland has dissolved or sunk into the sea, as has the European continent and presumably, the rest of the world. Our ships can travel just a short distance before sinking, and the Queen has had to issue an edict forbidding all further attempts at breaching the barrier lest we lose our entire Navy. In the meantime, a state of anarchy has broken out in several major cities, which will soon be under the control of major criminal syndicates which have used this crises as an opportunity to seize power. These evil opportunists include the Blackcoats, a european criminal syndicate run by the mysterious John Devil, and the Malum Sodalitas (which is latin for "Evil Secret Society"), reportedly under the control of an Oxford professor named Moriarty. Our small band, the League of Gentlemen, has allied with the Crown to try to restore order to our land, and to figure out a way to restore the world to it's previous state. We have only our own faculties, the land below us and the heavens above us in which to find our answer...

-- P. Fogg December 26, 1837

P.S. Evidence that these are indeed dangerous times: I am informed that there has been an increase in supernatural occurrence in the countryside and that the undead, sensing our widespread despair, have returned to feast on our misery. Just what we need right now - vampires!

That should settle it.

What about Cornwall, Scotland and Wales? Did they get stuck with the English too?

Of course, you can always try making a 'world without England' scenario.

 

[Plotinus]

Hey, Cornwall's part of England, you know - whether they like it or not.

(Hopefully my good friend from the Scilly Isles will never find out that I said that.)

I do like the introduction though, other than the oversight of Wales and Scotland (and the rogue apostrophes). It reminds of the famous headline that was once supposedly seen on the Times when it was a respectable paper: Fog in Channel. Continent cut off.

 

[Balthasar]

I do like the introduction though, other than the oversight of Wales and Scotland (and the rogue apostrophes).

And the awkward phrasing, and the giant run-on sentence that ate the middle of the paragraph. It's a rough draft, one of many.

If you like that sort of inadvertently funny nonsense, you'll love the Civilopedia entries I've written.

 

[Takhisis]

Hey, Cornwall's part of England, you know - whether they like it or not.

Your scenario says otherwise. You Kentians will not push Dumnonia any longer.

(Hopefully my good friend from the Scilly Isles will never find out that I said that.)

[emails Plot's friend on the quiet]

I do like the introduction though, other than the oversight of Wales and Scotland (and the rogue apostrophes). It reminds of the famous headline that was once supposedly seen on the Times when it was a respectable paper: Fog in Channel. Continent cut off.

It's said to be apocryphal&#8230; it's still very illuminating.

Actually, it's better that we're temporarily ignored. Our subversive activities will not be noticed until it's too late and we've built a NEW deep-fried-Mars Bars manufacturing plant.

And the awkward phrasing, and the giant run-on sentence that ate the middle of the paragraph. It's a rough draft, one of many.

If you like that sort of inadvertently funny nonsense, you'll love the Civilopedia entries I've written.

[IMG=left]http://www.forumwarz.com/images/buy_stuff/new_character.gif?1257430929[/IMG]Mein Gott! Can't wait.

Gimme, gimme, gimme... this is better than chocolate.

Seriously.

 

[Necropolis]

i would rather the mod start just before victoria is coronated becasue the units that are in the mod pack lead to a earlier time frame unless you want to get rid of that 18th century muskaterr looking guy with the old 3 point hat. i noticed you got rid of its counter part the turtle submarine.

 

[tom2050]

This mod begins on Boxing Day, just after the coronation of Victoria in 1837:

Spoiler :

A terrible curse has befallen our dear England! The rest of the world has completely disappeared without a trace. Even dear Ireland has dissolved or sunk into the sea, as has the European continent and presumably, the rest of the world. Our ships can travel just a short distance before sinking, and the Queen has had to issue an edict forbidding all further attempts at breaching the barrier lest we lose our entire Navy. In the meantime, a state of anarchy has broken out in several major cities, which will soon be under the control of major criminal syndicates which have used this crises as an opportunity to seize power. These evil opportunists include the Blackcoats, a european criminal syndicate run by the mysterious John Devil, and the Malum Sodalitas (which is latin for "Evil Secret Society"), reportedly under the control of an Oxford professor named Moriarty. Our small band, the League of Gentlemen, has allied with the Crown to try to restore order to our land, and to figure out a way to restore the world to its previous state. We have only our own faculties, the land below us and the heavens above us in which to find our answer...

-- P. Fogg December 26, 1837

P.S. Evidence that these are indeed dangerous times: I am informed that there has been an increase in supernatural occurrence in the countryside and that the undead, sensing our widespread despair, have returned to feast on our misery. Just what we need right now - vampires!

That should settle it.

I absolutely love that introduction! Feels like I'm reading a book... Keep going, I'm interested to hear what happens in Chapter 1! I guess that is where the mod comes in at though.. can't wait.

 

[Ozymandias]

It wasn't just materials science that was lacking - they also lacked the recognition that steam power could be used for anything useful. Hero's so-called steam engine was just a revolving kettle, quite different in operation from modern steam engines; there's no evidence that Hero or anyone else regarded it, even in principle, as anything more than a toy. After all, they didn't know why the jets of steam caused the kettle to rotate, because they didn't have Newton's laws of motion.

From a compendium of sources:

Hero/Heron/Heronas of Alexandria made the steam engine as a toy, and called his device "aeolipile," which means "wind ball" in Greek. The steam was supplied by a sealed pot filled with water and placed over a fire. Two tubes came up from the pot, letting the steam flow into a spherical ball of metal. The metallic sphere had two curved outlet tubes, which vented steam. As the steam went through the series of tubes, the metal sphere rotated. -- Why require a theory when you have a QED?

Also, it is said that Heronas and Ktisivios had created automatic doors for a temple with the aid of steam power, and constructed mechanisms that sounded the trumpets of a temple when the altars were lit. If the interior of the temple was sprayed with scented water, metallic birds began singing and some statues began flying. It is also said that the lighting conditions in and around the temple were regulated, creating artificial fog, when necessary.

One last - Archimedes devised a catapult that used steam power and in principle was a canon. It was described by Cicero in a manuscript discovered in a church library by Francisco Petrarch (1304 -1374) and was reproduced in a drawing by da Vinci.

 

[Balthasar]

Very good research, Oz. I love ancient technology - stuff that was never built, and some that was built, but forgotten. Although we've never specifically requested ancient-punk (really?) units, there are technically places for them in our Atlantis Civilization.

 

[Necropolis]

no it does not settle it i asked a fundamental question a week ago no ones getting back to me. now that your going with a start date of 1837. what about the muskaterr unit he has to be replaced with another type of unit. muskateers weren around in 1837. you will have to change the graphics casue i know that they atlest were not dressed in thos renasasanse outfits including 3 point hats. by 1837 they looked diffrent in the age of imperialism scenario for Civ2 set in year 1884 they had a unit called conscript and the style of dress was diffrent resembling a british solgier from this 1837 period you speak of. i say lets settle the units that is the topic of this thread.

 

[KingArthur]

Necropolis this is a fantasy/alternate history scenario so debates about the start dates and units are largely irrelevant. I think Balth. has adequately answered your questions in previous posts - re-read #302 - there are some "deliberate anachronisms" and this is a "celebration of 19th (and very early 20th) century fiction".

If you really don't like a particular unit feel free to suggest an alternative existing unit that could be used instead or make one for us. p.s. I'm not entirely sure of the unit you're on about? Is it the pirate? If it is that's a special character unit and falls under the deliberately anachronistic category.