Are some civics useless?

user330977

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Hello folks,

Mixing and matching civics allows for some great strategy and planning ahead, but in my experience it is undeniable that some are more useful than others. Serfdom instantly springs to mind; by the time it is available, most core infrastructure should be already built, making the worker speed bonus very underwhelming. Pacifism is another; it punishes you for building a military, and not having a strong military is a dangerous game on Monarch+. Perhaps it has some utility on isolated starts or when surrounded by hippy peaceniks? :D

Are there any civics that you rarely ever touch? Perhaps there are mods available to rebalance some of the vanilla civics?

Kind regards,
Ita Bear
 
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No civics are useless, but some civics require very specific situations to be useful. You mention serfdom which is absolutely a civic that sees little use.
But in situations where you do want to grow your cities (and thus have little or no use for both slavery and caste-system) and you have alot of stuff to do (Say you have recently settled alot of floodplain areas, or have jungle to clear), it can be really nice.
And when playing with SPI, you can jump in and out of it abit.

Enmancipation is also a civic thats kind of useless in most cituations, but you can tailor your game around it, if you have gotten your hands on alot of green lush land early on, either through settlement or conquest, and you want to mature alot of cottages.

Pacifism is _not_ useless. In fact it's one of the more usefull civics there is, precisely because great people and their uses is so insanly powerful in this game.
The added upkeep you can generally work around.
 
Pacifism is _not_ useless. In fact it's one of the more usefull civics there is, precisely because great people and their uses is so insanly powerful in this game.
The added upkeep you can generally work around.
Totally agree - it's one of the strongest civics in the game, hence it needs the downside to keep it balanced. It's probably one of the best designed ones for that reason.
 
Pacifism is another; it punishes you for building a military, and not having a strong military is a dangerous game on Monarch+.
In my games (monarch) I usually have a pretty weak military when running Pacifism, using diplomacy to keep the peace. In fact, for me it's the requirement to have a state religion that sometimes makes me decide not to run Pacifism, for the diplo penalty.
Anyway, you could chose to only run Pacifism during a Golden Age.

Can't remember ever having used Serfdom.
 
Yep, Paci a top tier civic, but requires experience for effective use. In most cases the unit malus is irrelevant.

Serfdom does have some value on late era starts when you can switch immediately at the start. But yeah, few play late era starts.
 
It's not so much that serfdom is bad, it's that slavery and caste are so good. It can be worth it, but not worth the anarchy turns, because you'll want to be back in slavery and/or caste soon. GAs remove anarchy but are also the most critical time for using caste. So to me serfdom sometimes give marginal benefit but only when SPI.
 
Yeah, same here.
It's once under a blue moon when serfdom comes into play without SPI.
 
I've not really seen such praise for Pacifism before! In my next game I shall have to work it into my strategy and see for myself.

Kind regards
Ita Bear
Well, it helps to have some strategies in mind. First is an understanding of the importance of great people, namely great scientists early and great merchants late. With that comes bulb strategies. You need to understand how to set that up. Plus, understand how to really leverage Paci. It's extremely powerful if used right and allows for tech advantages in key areas at key points in the game. It's really paramount to high level play.
 
In perfect game one wants 0.87 warriors/city (new ones can stay empty until size 4-5 if barbs is no trouble) + 1.69 attacking units/city in "big stick stack" anyway, so healthy empire can easily support that even with Pacifism (that has (no?) upkeep, so saving money just by switching to it - net gain actually can be positive with all units + Pacifism vs high upkeep civic like OReligion (with big empire it costs a lot).
Serfdom issue (as mentioned above) is being vs Slavery or Caste - even if there would be bunch of new cities coming into play (happens often for me), having ability to A) quick whip Granary at right moment at size 2 or expanding borders with Artist just beats extra worker speed. If can relay on auto-religion spread and can improve food+chop Granary at size 1 in 1st ring with Serfdom workers - yes, that is when it is strong. Or when there is lot of jungles (green tiles, green tiles, green green green!) that otherwise would take up to Space age to clear. Having "control" of HSophia can be nice combo in such a situation to emphasize strength even more.
I also like US civic (Pyramids) with post-Astro expansion (usually that is moment when can solve happiness/research issues, switching out of earlier Rep). It is one time when production is bottleneck but commerce could be used to quickly get out settlers/workers/workboats (one wants to get great/good/decent spots quickly if not going for military push) and stuff without whipping away cities population (that now has room to grow).
Just my 5 cents from personal view.
 
Hello folks,

Mixing and matching civics allows for some great strategy and planning ahead, but in my experience it is undeniable that some are more useful than others. Serfdom instantly springs to mind; by the time it is available, most core infrastructure should be already built, making the worker speed bonus very underwhelming. Pacifism is another; it punishes you for building a military, and not having a strong military is a dangerous game on Monarch+. Perhaps it has some utility on isolated starts or when surrounded by hippy peaceniks? :D

Are there any civics that you rarely ever touch? Perhaps there are mods available to rebalance some of the vanilla civics?

Kind regards,
Ita Bear

Mercantilism should have been Free Market and then there should have been a better 5th Civic available.
 
What should be kept in mind is that Pacifism has no upkeep costs. Even with a sizeable army, it can be cheaper than alternatives (especially OR).

And as mentioned, it's great during Golden Ages.
 
In vanilla BTS, I would say that Serfdom is the least useful Civic (besides the initial ones like Barbarism). It's not so much that it's bad by itself but, as others have said, you have this tremendous opportunity cost by forgoing either Slavery or Caste System. But if your leader is Spiritual, you can switch into Serfdom briefly during those moments when neither Slavery nor Caste System is needed, so that you can grow your cities while improving your Worker speed.

Are there any civics that you rarely ever touch? Perhaps there are mods available to rebalance some of the vanilla civics?
The mod AdvCiv (and K-mod) balances Serfdom in what I think is a very clever way: in addition to the normal benefit to Worker speed, it additionally gives Farms and Plantations +1 :commerce: while reducing the output of Towns by -1 :commerce:. I think that it's clever for many reasons:
1. It prioritizes Farms, which makes sense in terms of the focus of real-life serfdom-based societies, as well as the icon.
2. Both Slavery and Caste System require a certain amount of surplus :food: to be effective. On maps with little :food: Resources and generally just crappy terrain, you don't really have that luxury. But on those maps, you often can end up with a very large number of Farms, something like 50+ sometimes. In this case, the number of Farms greatly outnumbers the number of Towns, so by running Serfdom, you end up with rather significant amounts of extra :commerce:.
3. This extra :commerce: is oftentimes important in large, sprawling kinds of empires, so that you don't go broke.
4. On those :food:-poor maps, spreading irrigation with Civil Service and making a lot of Farms is critical. But, this requires a lot of Workers. So, by switching into Serfdom, you can embark on your great irrigation projects more quickly with the Worker speed boost, while also getting +1 :commerce: on every single Farm you make. It works out really well.
5. During Golden Ages, each +1 :commerce: becomes +2 :commerce:, which is very nice. Normally during Golden Ages, you want to switch into Pacifism and starve your cities by using Specialists instead of working tiles, in order to make the most out of the Great Person points :gp:. But sometimes, even during Golden Ages, you just really need the :commerce:. So, that's another consideration, especially if you have so little :food: to hire Specialists even for 8 turns, if you lack the Pyramids for Representation, etc.

The end result is that on sprawling maps with lots of Desert, Plains, and Tundra--which is to say, those resembling Russia--this form of Serfdom becomes pretty nice. Here you can see a map where the AdvCiv/K-mod Serfdom was very beneficial. Little food, huge irrigation chains, tons of Farms, not many Towns.
Russia-like terrain.JPG Lots of Farms.JPG
I think it's a shame that Firaxis didn't think of this Farms/Plantations +1 :commerce:, Towns -1 :commerce: idea when Civ4 was in development.

I used to think that Mercantilism was a bad Civic, but it's really grown on me. Here are some of my reasons why Mercantilism is actually pretty good:
1. If you have the Pyramids -> Representation, then you can run a free Scientist most everywhere. This extra 6 :science: can easily trump the :commerce: coming in from Foreign Trade Routes :traderoute:, especially when it's earlier in the game and most cities are fairly small. Foreign :traderoute: are not that good in many cases: just do a quick-save / quick-load while switching into Mercantilism to see how much Trade Route :traderoute: Commerce :commerce: you'll lose.
2. If you're Philosophical or in a Golden Age, the Great Person Points :gp: from the free Specialist can be very lucrative.
3. When you're in Mercantilism, you actually end up hurting your rival civilizations by cutting off some of their Foreign Trade Routes :traderoute:. If you have a very large empire and there are a lot of smaller civs that you don't like, then it can be a good idea to switch into Mercantilism just to hurt them. The bigger you are, the less you benefit from Foreign :traderoute:, and the more the smaller civs start relying on your :traderoute:. So while it may hurt you a little, it may hurt your rivals much more. And the more it hurts them, the better it is for you! :devil:
4. You still get Foreign :traderoute: with Vassal states, even under Mercantilism. So if you have a bunch of Vassal states, Mercantilism again can be an easy choice.
5. If you're on a Continents type map and you don't have Astronomy yet, then you oftentimes don't get very good :traderoute: anyway.
6. Lots of the time, many other Civs are running Mercantilism, so you're not getting much Foreign :traderoute:, if any. In those cases, it's often best to follow suit.
So in conclusion, the factors favoring Mercantilism are: other civs running Mercantilism, being in a Golden Age, Philosophical leader, the Pyramids, Continents maps before Astronomy, having a large empire, having lots of vassal states. I've never used it for its defensive role against foreign Corporations.

Environmentalism is usually a garbage Civic. If you're Spiritual, Environmentalism might be useful for brief moments if you have lots of :yuck: while building up Factories but before you have founded Corporations or have researched State Property. Other than that, it's generally only powerful if you're a small civ on a very :food:-poor hilly terrain with tons of Windmills, where you can benefit from the extra :commerce:... but only if you don't need the :hammers: from State Property and if you don't have Corporations, or at least not many of them. But if all you could muster is a small hilly civ into the modern era... that usually means that you've already lost the game. The difference between -25% Corporation savings with Free Market and +25% Corporation penalty with Environmentalism means that Corporations are essentially out of the question with Environmentalism. And since Corporations are so good, that means that Environmentalism is pretty crappy.

The mod AdvCiv makes Environmentalism a valuable Civic in some situations, by getting rid of the -25% Corporation penalty and also by completely revamping the Global Warming mechanic, with Environmentalism being an important way to combat it. You could also conceivably use the extra :health: to sell away all of your :health: Resources for :gold:/turn.

Emancipation: if you're the only civ left in Slavery/Caste System, and you're running the :culture: to combat huge :c5angry:, then you might benefit from the extra :science: by being able to turn the :culture: slider off. The boost to Cottage growth could be helpful to Spiritual leaders maybe.

I used to over-value Bureaucracy and avoid Nationalism, but if you're not Organized, you can really save a lot of :gold: by switching into Nationalism, since the latter has no cost at all. This is even before considering the ability to Draft units, which is incredibly powerful, especially drafting Riflemen from a Globe Theatre city. The extra :) from Barracks can be very nice as well: and remember that you can sell your extra :) resources for :gold:/turn if you're not actively Drafting...but you probably should be. The :espionage: benefit from Nationalism is pretty niche.
Free Speech can easily be better for :commerce: than Bureaucracy, especially if you start conquering rich terrain with lots of Towns. This is even if you have a heavily Cottaged Capital with Oxford. Just do a quick-save/quick-load to see if it's worth it. This is completely ignoring the :culture: benefit.

I still rarely use Universal Suffrage, just because I think that Representation is so good. Maybe someone can show me how to properly use Universal Suffrage and the Kremlin, but until then, I usually end every game in Representation. I know that it's good with late-game wars with Corporations, but I don't usually like to get into those extremely drawn-out games.

I've only ever used Police State in cases where I'm a Spiritual leader and I have the Pyramids, during brief periods when I want to maximize military production. I don't think that I've ever once researched Fascism to be able to use Police State, since I'm usually happy enough to run the :culture: slider a little to overcome War Weariness :c5angry:, and because I value Representation so much.
 
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Maybe it's just me but I actually like serfdom a lot. It lets me quickly reimprove conquered cities, chop forests etc. And I don't really like slavery as it forces me to constantly flip-flop my cities between useful and useless. What's the point of rushing a building or unit if that city than can't produce anything else useful for X turns? I newer understood that. I'd much rather take it slow and steady and create large powerhouse cities fully improved with lots of towns and lumbermills and full of people constantly using that output.

Than again I only play FFH these days and there the balance of stuff is probably different than the regular game.
 
The 5 default civics are pretty useless, of course.

Hereditary Rule, Representation, Bureaucracy, Free Speech, Slavery, Caste System, Free Market, State Property, Organized Religion and Free Religion are the ones I'll spend long periods in, willingly. Pacifism can be good for long periods, too, but normally I'll swap in and out during Golden Ages.

Police State is absolutely vital during long wars.

Universal Suffrage is good for swapping into for rushbuying during Golden Ages. Otherwise, the extra :hammers: from Towns is pretty meh; if you want hammers, build a SP Watermill or Workshop.

Mercantilism is good when isolated. Otherwise, I haven't seen a situation where it was better than Free Market's foreign trade route bonus.

Vassalage and Theocracy are good for wartime in theory, but I'd rather have economic boosts than +2 XP. And the lost production during anarchy tends to keep me from using them very much. Nationhood is better (1-pop rushed units) but you're giving up Buro or FS to use it.

Serfdom is useless in most games. Want faster workers? Whip one out with Slavery.

Emancipation is terrible but you are forced into it eventually. With no UN or UN control you can avoid the also-bad Environmentalism.
 
Come to think of it, the main problem with all the religious civics except FR is that you need to spread the religion around. That's less of an issue with Pacifism, when you only really need the religion in your best Great Person producing cities.
 
The 5 default civics are pretty useless, of course.

Hereditary Rule, Representation, Bureaucracy, Free Speech, Slavery, Caste System, Free Market, State Property, Organized Religion and Free Religion are the ones I'll spend long periods in, willingly. Pacifism can be good for long periods, too, but normally I'll swap in and out during Golden Ages.

Police State is absolutely vital during long wars.

Universal Suffrage is good for swapping into for rushbuying during Golden Ages. Otherwise, the extra :hammers: from Towns is pretty meh; if you want hammers, build a SP Watermill or Workshop.

Mercantilism is good when isolated. Otherwise, I haven't seen a situation where it was better than Free Market's foreign trade route bonus.

Vassalage and Theocracy are good for wartime in theory, but I'd rather have economic boosts than +2 XP. And the lost production during anarchy tends to keep me from using them very much. Nationhood is better (1-pop rushed units) but you're giving up Buro or FS to use it.

Serfdom is useless in most games. Want faster workers? Whip one out with Slavery.

Emancipation is terrible but you are forced into it eventually. With no UN or UN control you can avoid the also-bad Environmentalism.

Try out Hall of Fame Rock of Ages and You' ll recognize the usefulness of Serfdom. :)
 
I newer understood that. ......

Than again I only play FFH.......

Once you do understand it you realize why there is no debate that slavery is the single most powerful mechanic in the game. (a thesis can and really has been written on this for years, but I won't do that here) Granted, it's pretty much irrelevant in FFH where I think the civic is only available if you are Evil and have Ashen Veil religion. FFH tends to start really slow but some civs/religions can get some very powerful cities, like Elves and Fellowship of Leaves or the Dwarves.

Try out Hall of Fame Rock of Ages and You' ll recognize the usefulness of Serfdom. :)

Yep, I mentioned late era starts above. If you start in an era where you have Feud already, doing an immediate civic switch on Turn 0 to Serfdom + any other available good civics, can really boost your game early. You usually start with a worker or workers and some pop, so getting up improvements and chops (for more workers) is huge.
 
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