Are there any civs in need of revamping?

[Onii-chan]

Just delete your extra great persons. They automatically give you gold.

In that case I would rather recommend you to sell the great works you can't make room for to other civs. The AI is willing to pay absurd amounts for them, and every great writer/artist/musician can create more than one each. Should definitely be able to give you 3000-5000 gold per person in that case. Though this only works if a) they actually have that much money to give you (gpt included), and b) enough slots to hold the great works themselves, otherwise they won't buy it (obviously/fortunately). But I did that a few times in my Deity win as Russia so evidentially it's doable (though if/when they patch the AI's trade values this should probably get nerfed, though the same can be said for unit selling)

Also won't work in multiplayer

 

[Haggbart]

It's good on Deity but otherwise it's pretty crap yeah. The ability itself isn't bad, it just needs higher yields I'd say. 1:1 instead of 1:3 sounds more reasonable

But 1:1 would be insane on deity, also the free tiles Russia get are so powerful they don't really need anything else to be top tier.

 

[Aenthin]

In that case I would rather recommend you to sell the great works you can't make room for to other civs. The AI is willing to pay absurd amounts for them, and every great writer/artist/musician can create more than one each. Should definitely be able to give you 3000-5000 gold per person in that case. Though this only works if a) they actually have that much money to give you (gpt included), and b) enough slots to hold the great works themselves, otherwise they won't buy it (obviously/fortunately). But I did that a few times in my Deity win as Russia so evidentially it's doable (though if/when they patch the AI's trade values this should probably get nerfed, though the same can be said for unit selling)

Also won't work in multiplayer

Just don't sell great art to Kongo.

 

[Onii-chan]

Just don't sell great art to Kongo.

Art is the only type you can at least sort of manage as Russia if you ignore archaeological museums as in that case every theater square can support one artist, unlike writers and musicians where you need two districts to support one. So you'll pretty much only be selling great works of writing and music anyway

But 1:1 would be insane on deity, also the free tiles Russia get are so powerful they don't really need anything else to be top tier.

I guess, but should the game be balanced around deity gameplay? That's debatable. And in either case, if/when Russia gets a second leader with a different ability the argument that "their other stuff is strong enough" won't really work anymore since The Grand Embassy will be changed for something else (unless that ability is also pretty weak that is)

 

[Aenthin]

Art is the only type you can at least sort of manage as Russia if you ignore archaeological museums as in that case every theater square can support one artist, unlike writers and musicians where you need two districts to support one. So you'll pretty much only be selling great works of writing and music anyway

That is true, although if you do end up getting artists too early and decided to make an extra buck by making use of the Palace slot, I still wouldn't recommend selling great art to Kongo.

 

[Beorhtric]

Being British I'd actually say.. England. I really don't like them as they are in Civ VI. I am pleased that we finally get Victoria as a leader over Elizabeth I (We were pretty weak and meaningless as a nation when she was on the throne, where as in Victoria's time we really were at the peek of our power).

I know they're theming around our colonial past, (which was obviously still going on in her time - the Zulu war for example) but pretty much the only unique I like is our District. I'd much rather have the Longbowman or a Frigate replacement as out Unique Unit.

I'd much prefer Victoria's Leader bonus to be focused on technological advancement (this is something we were really strong on under her reign) - it'd also help boost the science orientated civs from one (Sumeria).

Add in Richard the Lionheart as our war focused leader.

And I might be happier

 

[agonistes]

in general, the unique tile improvements are pretty garbage. This includes the French Château, the Egyptian Sphinx, the Sumerian Ziggurat,

The Ziggurat = 2 science for 1 builder charge? +1s on flood plains (Lady of Reeds), + Ziggurat, those are some darn good tiles. Even better if the floodplains have resources.

You just need to make a city into a food producer, and start farming science. The others might be blah, but the Ziggurat is no joke.

Granted, this would turn Kongo into a very powerful civ since their other bonuses are already very strong but that's a different matter (and certainly not the strongest civ in the game regardless)

Kongo is pretty darn strong. Top 3 maybe.

The problem with the Lavra is that it generates waaaaaayyyyyyy too many great writer/artist/musician points. Like absurdly so.

Think those can be used for cash, if nothing else.

I just started a game with France to test out the spies more. I know that in one game, Egypt stole 1.5k gold from me. Apparently you can do the same with science, faith, shields, etc. If you have multiple spies running around, that could be significant. I just am not sure yet.

 

[Onii-chan]

The Ziggurat = 2 science for 1 builder charge? +1s on flood plains (Lady of Reeds), + Ziggurat, those are some darn good tiles. Even better if the floodplains have resources.

You just need to make a city into a food producer, and start farming science. The others might be blah, but the Ziggurat is no joke.

Problem is what you're losing relatively speaking by not having something else there. In the early game when your cities are still small, you need all the food and production you can get; you already have a hard time enough building all the things you unlock tech-wise thanks to the eureka system so making that even more unbalanced won't really help you much in practice, and by the midgame when you've unlocked feudalism you'd be much better off having that river and its surrounding area covered in farms with adjacency bonuses (as well as the occasional commerce hub of course). You'll get more science from just getting a taller city and then dump that extra production into a campus + buildings for example, which will ultimately give you more science than the ziggurats alone would, and you're not sacrificing any other useful yields in the process for it, plus population gives science too

Also you can't build ziggurats on resources (or any other unique tile improvement for that matter)

 

[Frostburn]

This is a great point about the Kongo Leader UA. It really just doesn't work well. You'll get entirely useless bonuses most of the time and there's nothing you can do about it.

Peter has another bad leader UA. Maybe it could be fixed by a) increasing the bonus to 1 science/culture for every 1 or 2 techs, not 3 and b) nerfing internal trade routes, which should happen anyway. That would make external trade routes attractive as Russia.

Overall the Religious convert bonus is not that good, but there is one thing about it I think people are overlooking. Build Mont St Michael for the Martyr ability, and get free apostles from building Mbanzas/Theatres. Suicide apostles and get a lot of relics which synergizes with their Nkisi bonus. I think the apostle + martyr combo with no religious investment for relics is better than the actual religious bonuses you get (follower beleifs, etc) when a religion is spread to you.

Agree on Peter's ability, its really bad right now. I like the other Russia bonuses though, want to see his ability buffed and/or an alternate Russian leader.

 

[Onii-chan]

Overall the Religious convert bonus is not that good, but there is one thing about it I think people are overlooking. Build Mont St Michael for the Martyr ability, and get free apostles from building Mbanzas/Theatres. Suicide apostles and get a lot of relics which synergizes with their Nkisi bonus. I think the apostle + martyr combo with no religious investment for relics is better than the actual religious bonuses you get (follower beleifs, etc) when a religion is spread to you.

The relic part comes from the Nkisi ability though, and that part is totally fine. It's the Religious Convert part that doesn't function like intended very well

 

[TamirLenk]

Egypt needs a boost. The Sphinx sucks, their start bias on desert flood plains makes production tough, their build bonus on river banks is pretty weak, and their UU is just a slightly faster archer. I'd change the UU into a heavy chariot with a one-hex range that upgrades to regular knights later. Dump the Sphinx in favor of either a district (Pharaoh's Tomb - Holy Site with adjacency bonuses for culture and faith).

 

[Onii-chan]

Egypt needs a boost. The Sphinx sucks, their start bias on desert flood plains makes production tough, their build bonus on river banks is pretty weak, and their UU is just a slightly faster archer. I'd change the UU into a heavy chariot with a one-hex range that upgrades to regular knights later. Dump the Sphinx in favor of either a district (Pharaoh's Tomb - Holy Site with adjacency bonuses for culture and faith).

The +1 production from flood plains pantheon is pretty mandatory for them though, which definitely helps

But yes they're definitely in the bottom 5 to me

 

[Frostburn]

The UU is good, its just way too expensive. The chariot archer cost freaking 140 production, compared to 50 of the archer. It should be 80-100 production

 

[agonistes]

and then dump that extra production into a campus + buildings for example, which will ultimately give you more science than the ziggurats alone would, and you're not sacrificing any other useful yields in the process for it, plus population gives science too

But I wouldn't be using that city for anything other than science. Zero production. Only a well-placed campus with max buildings is going to come close to getting you the same science. I don't care about the other yields. I don't need 4 cities producing. I don't even need 3 or 2. 1 city popping military units is fine. So you are not 'researching things you would never be able to build.' You are researching things your other cities will build.

And you don't need to keep the Ziggurats. As you progress, you can replace them, can't you? Unlike the districts.

I think they are great for an early game tech boost, get you into industrial very fast.

 

[Roconar]

I've played Egypt recently (after a few games with Germany) and was pleasantly surprised: The foreign trade bonus (+4 gold on foreign trade routes) is quite good early (lets you buy more tiles early etc), before you switch to internal trade routes (for the production) later. The district discounts (15% cheaper along the river) help too.

The wonder bonus along rivers also seems helpful. I built pyramids, hanging gardens and petra in the early game, and ruhr valley later, and aggressively pumped out builders to chop/improve throughout the game, and things seemed to run pretty smoothly. I was only playing on king, so I don't know how this plays out on higher difficulties.

My general feeling is that Egypt opens strong economically (when you have gold, discounts and lots of chops), but their initial cities plateu lower production-wise than with some other civs. So you have to make sure to settle/build up production cities before that happens.

Some final thoughts:

1. Agree that the chariot archers are too expensive.
2. Sphinx is situationally good (e.g. on an isolated floodplain tile near a wonder that won't benefit from farm spam) and very easy to build.

 

[Frostburn]

The relic part comes from the Nkisi ability though, and that part is totally fine. It's the Religious Convert part that doesn't function like intended very well

The relic yield bonuses come from Nkisi, but this bonus: "Receives an Apostle each time he finishes a M'banza or Theater Square district" is part of the Religious Convert Leader Bonus, and IMO is the strongest part of the bonus by far if paired with Mont St. Michael due to the martyr promotion granting relics. Generating relics this way is much more efficient than archeologiests, provided you can get a religion spread to you.

 

[Solitude]

Gorgo, Sparta, Unique Unit.

Sparta at that time was considered by their peers to be the best warriors in the world.
And yet in Civ 6 they get the same hoplite as Greece which i find a bit underwhelming.

I´d rather see something like "Royal Spartans" "Gains +5 combat bonus for every adjacent enemy" to promote this idea (or myth if you will) that Spartans simply do not back down and that their morality is unprecedented and in fact would only grow stronger the more enemies they face.

I feel Sparta could have been done much better since it was a "civ" that lived their lives SO different from everybody else it deserves some more attention.

 

[Onii-chan]

The relic yield bonuses come from Nkisi, but this bonus: "Receives an Apostle each time he finishes a M'banza or Theater Square district" is part of the Religious Convert Leader Bonus, and IMO is the strongest part of the bonus by far if paired with Mont St. Michael due to the martyr promotion granting relics. Generating relics this way is much more efficient than archeologiests, provided you can get a religion spread to you.

Yeah okay true enough but if you just changed what I said and let him build Holy Sites like normal then he'd be able to build apostles the standard way as well and then get relics in the same way. Also the way it currently is, any Theaters or Mbanzas you built before getting a religion in that city will not give you any apostles which is a bit awkward

What do the archeologiests have to do with anything though? You use those to fill the museums, not the relic slots in the palace. Obviously you should use archeologiests as Kongo regardless

But I wouldn't be using that city for anything other than science. Zero production. Only a well-placed campus with max buildings is going to come close to getting you the same science. I don't care about the other yields. I don't need 4 cities producing. I don't even need 3 or 2. 1 city popping military units is fine. So you are not 'researching things you would never be able to build.' You are researching things your other cities will build.

And you don't need to keep the Ziggurats. As you progress, you can replace them, can't you? Unlike the districts.

I think they are great for an early game tech boost, get you into industrial very fast.

I guess that might sort of work but it still sounds pretty gimmicky to me. I think that would've made more sense in Civ V than here. With the Eureka/Inspiration system, production indirectly provides science/culture since there are so many boosts you get simply from building stuff that you'd want to build normally anyway, so sacrificing cogs for raw science output might net you more science but you'll likely miss some boosts that you would've been able to get otherwise, which in practice becomes basically the same thing. Merely that building stuff also would give you the regular benefits of whatever you built in addition to getting boosts from it

But yeah I guess if you have three really high production cities which can manage to take care of all of that all on their own then using a fourth one for something like that might work, I'm just not sure it's worth it

 

[Frostburn]

Yeah okay true enough but if you just changed what I said and let him build Holy Sites like normal then he'd be able to build apostles the standard way as well and then get relics in the same way. Also the way it currently is, any Theaters or Mbanzas you built before getting a religion in that city will not give you any apostles which is a bit awkward

What do the archeologiests have to do with anything though? You use those to fill the museums, not the relic slots in the palace. Obviously you should use archeologiests as Kongo regardless

Oh right my bad about the archaeologists , I was confusing artifacts wtih relics, yea you should do both.

>Yeah okay true enough but if you just changed what I said and let him build Holy Sites like normal then he'd be able to build apostles the standard way as well and then get relics in the same way.

if he could build Holy Sites AND do all that stuff with apostles I think he'd be too strong.

>Also the way it currently is, any Theaters or Mbanzas you built before getting a religion in that city will not give you any apostles which is a bit awkward

True, you likely wouldnt get it on your first couple of theatres/mbanzas built, but you can definitely get them pretty consistently after that, at least in single player (in multiplayer its less useful). Its not the best leader bonus by any stretch, but I do think people are focusing on the religious bonuses which are pretty lame especially considering you dont even get the founder belief (probably the strongest of the beleifs), when the apostle + martyr + relic synergy is the most valuable part of the "Religious Convert" ability

All that being said I find the other bonuses of the Kongo really interesting as well and I want to see an alternate leader for Kongo for an alternate playstyle.

 

[Onii-chan]

Oh right my bad about the archaeologists , I was confusing artifacts wtih relics, yea you should do both.

>Yeah okay true enough but if you just changed what I said and let him build Holy Sites like normal then he'd be able to build apostles the standard way as well and then get relics in the same way.

if he could build Holy Sites AND do all that stuff with apostles I think he'd be too strong.

>Also the way it currently is, any Theaters or Mbanzas you built before getting a religion in that city will not give you any apostles which is a bit awkward

True, you likely wouldnt get it on your first couple of theatres/mbanzas built, but you can definitely get them pretty consistently after that, at least in single player. Its not the best leader bonus by any stretch, but I do think people are focusing on the religious bonuses which are pretty lame especially considering you dont even get the founder belief (probably the strongest of the beleifs), when the apostle + martyr + relic synergy is the most valuable part of it (way better than follower beleifs, etc. ).

All that being said I find the other bonuses of the Kongo really interesting as well and I want to see an alternate leader for Kongo for an alternate playstyle.

Well another problem is that this all assumes that you manage to build Mont St. Michel, which basically makes the entire strategy dependent on a single wonder. If someone else beats you to it... well then what? You'd have to rely on pure luck to get Martyrs, and given that the number of apostles Kongo can get is restricted already, that's probably not going to work out very well