Arioch's Analyst Thread

[Calouste]

I think it's a great mechanic. The Civ IV specialist system was confusing as hell.

I'm also wondering whether specialist will be stuck in the building once you assign them to it. There is more of an emphasis on middle/long term planning and removing the slider from the game so you can't instantly swap from research to gold isn't that effective if you can still switch your specialists around with abandon. Leaves some interesting questions though as to what happens if the city is in starvation or if a mechanism like Civ4 slavery is still in the game. Although in the last case you could just say that you can slave away the peasants but not the middle class.

 

[kurtkage]

I know what you meant, but like I said, though anything is possible, it doesn't look that way. There aren't any "also requires this tech" icons or similar indicators anywhere in the tree that we can see, and the unit icon under Metallurgy looks very different from the Cannon icon under Chemistry.

Ah yea the icons do look very different. You must have better eyes than I do because I cannot tell that either one is a cannon. What else could a metallurgy unit be, any ideas? It still seems to me that metallurgy should be cannon (ala civ2 or 3?) and the chemistry could have grenadiers(archer replacement)? Also gunpowders icon looks like a perfect circle to me, are musketmen not in gunpowder?

For base growth, it seems to be one citizen=one beaker. It also looks like there are buildings and specialists to increase it. There could be science-increasing improvements, but if they exist, they look to be later improvements

I recall an interview where Shirk or someone mentioned "farming" science but that doesnt nesc mean terrain improvement, though it's been said alot on the forums maybe there is another source about sci improvements.

If you notice when they first found the city it starts with 4 science at 1pop(palace bonus? but doesnt work with Rome being capital too), though later on Rome appears to have equal pop:science. The tooltip over science in Rome you can make out that it does say "12(13?) science from population". When he is messing with the citizens the sci does not change which is to be expected, but also I could not make out any tiles in the city screen that had sci, only gold/food.

Also on the tooltip it gives a description of science that I cannot make out much except Buildings. Do any of those words look like "tiles" or "improvements" to you?

 

[AriochIV]

I'm also wondering whether specialist will be stuck in the building once you assign them to it. There is more of an emphasis on middle/long term planning and removing the slider from the game so you can't instantly swap from research to gold isn't that effective if you can still switch your specialists around with abandon.

I would expect that you should be able to move your population in and out of specialist slots at will, just like moving them between city tiles. The reason I heard given for the removal of sliders was that most people left it at max research all the time (with just enough gold income so as not to be losing money), only changing it occasionally when you wanted gold to upgrade units, and therefore it didn't represent an interesting choice to the player. (edit: it's Jon Shafer's quote here)

Ah yea the icons do look very different. You must have better eyes than I do because I cannot tell that either one is a cannon.

The trick to identifying a unit is knowing what the icon looks like (from seeing it in another screenshot), and matching up the areas where the image breaks the round border (as well as areas of light and dark). In the case of the cannon, notice that it breaks the circle only a little bit at the upper right, and that the dark area is the upside-down U shape of the carriage and wheels. This matches what we see under Chemistry.

For those units whose icons are mostly round with few protrusions (like the Riflemen), this method is not much help.

 

[AriochIV]

I did some searching and found the interviews I had seen some interesting stuff in. The "long-haired guy" I mentioned before is 2K's producer Garrett Bittner, but most of what I was looking for is in the text portion of this Gamespot E3 interview with lead designer Jon Shafer:

http://e3.gamespot.com/story/6265330/civilization-v-qanda-first-e3-details

Some relevant excerpts (emphasis mine):

Social Policy

With the policies system, we wanted to keep the feel of mixing and matching to construct one's government that was part of Civ IV, but we also wanted to instill a sense of forward momentum. Rather than having to switch out of one policy to adopt another, you build upon the policies already unlocked. The thought process we want to promote is "What cool new effect do I want?" rather than the feeling of needing to perform detailed analysis to determine if switching is a good idea.

Ranged attacks

All warships are now ranged units with the ability to hit land targets, dramatically increasing their importance relative to previous games in the series. Siege units are very important to taking cities. They're more powerful than infantry-based ranged units like archers and crossbowmen, but as a trade-off, they must be set up prior to firing.

Zone of Control

One other big thing we've done is add a zone-of-control effect to the game to prevent enemies from easily skirting around defensive positions. Unlike [the way things worked in] earlier Civ games, the effect only applies to units belonging to players you're at war with. We wanted to make sure it was an element of war tactics but not a source of frustration. It's not a hard effect though--some games with this feature prevent movement completely, but in Civ V, units can still move one tile within that unit's zone of control.

City-States

There are three types of city-states in the game: maritime, cultured, and militaristic. Befriending one provides bonuses relating to their type. While city-states can be friends with any player, they can be allied to only one at a time. City-states grant all of their resources to their ally and will join that ally in war, which makes an allegiance with city-states a very handy thing to possess. As the game progresses, city-states will make various requests of you. Some might request the major powers kill another neighboring city-state, while others might ask you to clear out some nearby barbarians.

Economy and Science

Spending gold to expand one's territory is an important part of the game. Border growth now takes place one tile at a time instead of a bunch at a time in large rings. Players may choose which tiles are obtained with money, but the price will depend on how easy or hard it would be for the city to claim the tile normally. This gives players some element of control and provides a compelling reason to save up. If you need 200 gold [pieces] to get that iron tile, you're going to be much less likely to spend your money carelessly.

Gold also plays a large role in diplomacy. Providing gifts of gold to city-states improves your influence. Additionally, like in previous Civ games, gold may be used to purchase units, buildings, and other important properties. In addition, you can now even expand your borders by buying individual tiles around your cities. These are a few major roles for gold that should really make saving and spending quite a bit more interesting in Civ V.

A big change that veterans will notice is that the age-old "slider," which required players to choose between focusing either on scientific research or on producing wealth--or some kind of middle ground between the two--has been eliminated. Gold and science have been completely split up and come from different sources now. We just didn't feel that the slider was adding a whole lot to the experience in Civ V. In previous games, the objective was nearly always to run with as much science as one could afford, making the occasional change to upgrade units or trade for a tech or something. The new system requires less turn-to-turn management and better rewards long-term planning. Most science now comes from your population, though specialist populations and unique tile improvements also contribute.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Out of curiosity, where are you getting the information that one citizen = one beaker, bjbrains? I don't recall seeing anything about that.

EDIT lol. Now that I read the post directly above, this question looks a bit silly.

 

[12agnar0k]

Well it won't necessarily be 1 beaker per pop, it could be 10, or 100 beakers per pop, we will find out eventually , maybe we could guess if we looked at that rome city screenshot and looked at what science we have and how much pop, but it would still be a guess.

It is clear however that population gives science, which begs the question, are all people now scientists?, Braniac - "I can do Science me."

....

Ps. I'm liking the new graphics...

but

Babylon* Hammurabi (unknown) (unknown) (unknown) (unknown)

Thats still wrong, its Nebecaseer II or however you say it

 

[bjbrains]

Well it won't necessarily be 1 beaker per pop, it could be 10, or 100 beakers per pop, we will find out eventually , maybe we could guess if we looked at that rome city screenshot and looked at what science we have and how much pop, but it would still be a guess.

It is clear however that population gives science, which begs the question, are all people now scientists?, Braniac - "I can do Science me."

I was basing my 1=1 figure off of the Rome city screenshot. It simply shows 13 science: +13 from citizens (with 13 citizens).

 

[AriochIV]

Thats still wrong, its Nebecaseer II or however you say it

Ah, I see. I didn't catch that in what looked like a post about Steam/D2D exclusive options. Thank you for the correction.

But PinkHammurabi will be very sad.

 

[henryMCVII]

All warships are now ranged units

Wonders what this does mean to direct attacs on naval combat.

 

[Semmel]

And I wonder if it is possible to sink unit carriers (land units that float around) by bombardment? because this has a strong influence of how to deploy the defending ships.
If it is possible, the defenders have to be far enouh away so the atters cant bombard the carriers. I hope the zone of control also applies on the sea!
If it is not possible to destroy carriers by bombardment, its going to be much harder to sink them.

I recon thats going to be very interesting! either way

 

[Aramel]

I've been looking at the Chivalry tech; that third image looks rather like Himeji Castle (which was a wonder in Civ Rev), and the asterisk looks like the best place for defensive pacts (I don't think they would have pushed them back to the industrial age).

 

[12agnar0k]

Wonders what this does mean to direct attacs on naval combat.

The naval ships have both normal attack capability and ranged capability. So you can bombard a naval target thats stronger than you to weaken it and then finish it off with another ship, or if you want to go in close and do "naval melee" then you can do so and have a normal attack which does more damage than a ranged attack but you get retaliated on.

The ranged ability also allows the navy to shoot onto land, meaning they are a much better support unit, which is very realistic.

@ "can naval units be sunk by ranged attacks", yes they can, as can land units be killed by ranged fire, its just the ranged attacks will be weaker than normal melee attacks so it might take a few attacks to get the job done.

 

[PinkHammurabi]

I noticed a few things about combat in Civ V.

First, take a look at what happens when you have a unit selected and then hold down a right click on a tile nearby. Before lifting up your finger from the right mouse button, the interface shows you a lot of information. There's a blue line around your unit, which apparently shows the area into which your unit could safely move. Enemy units are highlighted in red. And in this screenshot, which shows the player holding a right click on an enemy Cannon, combat odds are displayed in an attractive information box. The blue outline is what's most interesting to me. What counts as a "safe" area? In this screenshot, the Cannon is not included inside the blue circle, meaning that moving there is not considered "safe." We'll revisit this question in a moment.

...

After dispatching with the last defending rifleman unit outside the city, the player is now ready to head in for the kill. The player selects his own rifleman, and prepares to bear down on the city. Note that in this screenshot, the city under siege is included in the blue circle showing where the unit can "safely" move. The combat odds display says "Safe Attack."

I think you're really overcomplicating this. I don't think "safe movement" has anything to do with it; it's just where a unit can move that turn, victories in battle notwithstanding. The Cavalry's technically not guaranteed a victory so it shows its movement as two hexes in all directions save for those occupied by enemy units. The Rifleman, however, can capture the city uncontested at that point so therefore that tile is included in his range.

That's certainly how I see it, anyway.

Ah, I see. I didn't catch that in what looked like a post about Steam/D2D exclusive options. Thank you for the correction.

But PinkHammurabi will be very sad.

Very sad.

When it was announced that Nebuchadnezzer II was going to be the leader I had some mixed feelings. I was happy that they were finally shaking things up and we'd get some fresh fish (a la Shawshank Redemption), but having Babylon sans The Hammur will definitely leave me with a hole in my heart.

The twist of the knife, however, is that we finally have fully animated and fleshed-out leaderheads, and seeing Hammurabi in this light would be near-orgasmic for me. As a matter of fact, there are quite a few leaders that would make better choices, imo, with this new mechanic, i.e., Louis over Napolean, Crazy Henry the Horse over Elizabeth, etc.

 

[PinkHammurabi]

I think you have to go back to Civ II to find Swamp, and I'm not sure that counts.

CivII had Swamps, but CivIII most definitely had Marshes. I don't recall it being the result of one of the expansions as a previous poster said, but it was absolutely in CivIII.

 

[AriochIV]

Wonders what this does mean to direct attacs on naval combat.

Since you can sink a ship with ranged attacks, and it appears that you never take damage yourself when conducting a ranged attack (even when the target also has a ranged attack) it doesn't look like there's any reason to directly attack a ship, except maybe if you need that enemy unit dead NOW (since the strengths for BB and DD are twice their ranged attack strength).

And I wonder if it is possible to sink unit carriers (land units that float around) by bombardment? because this has a strong influence of how to deploy the defending ships. If it is possible, the defenders have to be far enouh away so the atters cant bombard the carriers. I hope the zone of control also applies on the sea! If it is not possible to destroy carriers by bombardment, its going to be much harder to sink them.

It would be very strange to have a special non-sinking rule for carriers, especially since this would mean that carriers can't sink other carriers. But yes, ships having ranged attacks is going to mean air recon for your carriers is going to be very important. Which is realistic: WWII carrier combat was about finding the enemy first. Hopefully they will give carriers enough fighter slots to do adequate recon and still be able to attack.

I've been looking at the Chivalry tech; that third image looks rather like Himeji Castle (which was a wonder in Civ Rev), and the asterisk looks like the best place for defensive pacts (I don't think they would have pushed them back to the industrial age).

It does indeed look like Himeji. But I wish they wouldn't tie defensive pacts and the like to technologies (at least, not later than Writing). Nations even in the very earliest eras had very complicated alliances.

CivII had Swamps, but CivIII most definitely had Marshes. I don't recall it being the result of one of the expansions as a previous poster said, but it was absolutely in CivIII.

You're right, though it was Civ III Conquests that added marshes (and volcanoes).

 

[kurtkage]

in the beginning of the video at 00:30 as he is scrolling the map talking about terrain you see a peninsula that to me looks like marsh from civ3. It's possible that it's grassland with a reflection happening, but it has that kind of blueish tint to it.

Also at around 00:49 you can catch a glimpse of water reflection on a green tile just above a settler, like a grassland with water on it but not a lake = marsh in my mind.

I couldn't get a screenshot to come out clearly, it becomes so blurry as to look like grassland but when it scrolls by in the movie can be seen better.

Someone else take a look at those and see if you agree?

Also something to add to your info pages, there was a post by a 2k rep that said the map sizes (names of them not hex #), game speeds and climates. I see alot of ppl talk about these things so maybe a good addition, still trying to find the post to quote...

Edit to add:
Starting at about 05:23 in vid1 there is a terrain improvement between the southern 2 cities with tents/huts and a large building, but of a different color than the pink etc of the other trading posts seen before. Could this be trading post upgraded? Or a diff model for this era? or another improvement entirely? At first I thought it was a city but quickly noticed that there was no city name bar above it.

 

[mjs0]

Also something to add to your info pages, there was a post by a 2k rep that said the map sizes (names of them not hex #), game speeds and climates. I see alot of ppl talk about these things so maybe a good addition, still trying to find the post to quote...

I can help with that because it was in response to a post of mine.
Here you go:

Elizabeth,
Just to be clear...
I recall you indicating early on (and to be fair it is common practice) that you would be releasing information according to a fixed schedule.

Given that, can we ask questions like 'What size maps will be supported?' or 'What game lengths will be offered?'.

Doh!...of course we can...what I mean is can you answer this sort of question or are we restricted to simple clarifications of info that is already public?

For example, there have been a ton of questions about details on some of the released screenshots, such as...
Are rivers graphically finished or will the final game look better?
What is that tile full of tents next to Newcastle?
etc.
From the latter thread:

I suspect some of the frustration (other than the elephant in the room) comes from the suspicion that any questions like these, which many consider important, or at the least interesting and worthy of an answer, are being ignored and if raised more prominently will be answered with ... "We'll be ready to tell you that real soon now", rather than an actual answer.

It would be nice if some of those hanging questions were acknowledged because the lack of interaction on these and similar topics is clearly not helping 2Ks image here.

Anyway...please consider the bolded Qs above asked...thank you.

Okay, fair enough. First, you get my standard disclaimer: This stuff isn't finalized yet. This is what is in my latest build, and could change, but this is closing in on final. And I'm not going to give you details on what each of these things are, but you can speculate, and will have more info soon.

There are three different land types (and random.) There are six different map sizes from teeny to gigantic, plus random. There are eight different difficulties and four different game speeds.

We are constantly updating the graphics and they are not finalized completely yet - with a good graphics card the rivers blend well with the landscape. (Although referring to the Newcastle shot, what do you think of that river? I can get more info on that if you would like.)

I'm not going to tell you what the tents are because there will be more details on tile improvements in the future, but suffice it to say it's an improvement that you can build around your city (like farms, for example.)

 

[AriochIV]

in the beginning of the video at 00:30 as he is scrolling the map talking about terrain you see a peninsula that to me looks like marsh from civ3. It's possible that it's grassland with a reflection happening, but it has that kind of blueish tint to it. Also at around 00:49 you can catch a glimpse of water reflection on a green tile just above a settler, like a grassland with water on it but not a lake = marsh in my mind. I couldn't get a screenshot to come out clearly, it becomes so blurry as to look like grassland but when it scrolls by in the movie can be seen better. Someone else take a look at those and see if you agree?

Yes, you can see marshes at several points in the video, especially when the sunlight glints off them as he's scrolling past.

 

[henryMCVII]

Since you can sink a ship with ranged attacks, and it appears that you never take damage yourself when conducting a ranged attack (even when the target also has a ranged attack) it doesn't look like there's any reason to directly attack a ship, except maybe if you need that enemy unit dead NOW (since the strengths for BB and DD are twice their ranged attack strength).

Im still confused with that. Do we need to set up ships as well before fire (like siege units)? If so, the target may move away if I met it in open water. OTOH, if we don't need to set up then may one get attacked out of nowhere... move in sight, fire, move away?

 

[Aramel]

Im still confused with that. Do we need to set up ships as well before fire (like siege units)? If so, the target may move away if I met it in open water. OTOH, if we don't need to set up then may one get attacked out of nowhere... move in sight, fire, move away?

Ships don't need to set up, only siege units do. I also don't think most units can move after attacking (cavalry seem to be an exception IIRC).