Arioch's Analyst Thread
- Thread starter AriochIV
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Arkangelus
Prince
It'd actually be pretty good if some of those buildings required things like iron - in the earlier eras you have a choice whether to go for quality (few troops trained to an elite level) or quantity (use all your iron resources on the troops), whereas once iron stops being an issue in the late game you can provide the armoury benefits to all your oil and uranium-based forces.
Mr Greenfinch
Chieftain
From video on gamestar.de (in German unfortunately, so I could understand sth wrong):
Drill I (+20% strength in rough(?) terrain):
Shock I (+20% strength in open terrain):
Medic (this unit and all on the neighbours hexes heal 1HP/turn):
It requires 6 turns to build a mine:
Drill I (+20% strength in rough(?) terrain):
Shock I (+20% strength in open terrain):
Medic (this unit and all on the neighbours hexes heal 1HP/turn):
It requires 6 turns to build a mine:
PinkHammurabi
Warlord
Just looks like developer tools. I don't think that's something we'd have in-game when it goes live. We may have some kind of World Editor a la Civ IV but that wouldn't be it.
Tomice
Passionate Smart-Ass
You're right about "unwegsames gelände" = rough terrain. And about the rest 
The last tooltip also says building the mine will connect iron to the trade network - no road needed (which was somewhat known).
The last tooltip also says building the mine will connect iron to the trade network - no road needed (which was somewhat known).
Ahriman
Tyrant
I like the idea of some unit specialization in rough vs open terrain.
But am I the only one that finds the Shock and Drill promotion lines potentially too much?
Favoring open vs rough ground should be primarily about unit type (cavalry and armor favor open ground, ranged units favor high ground, infantry favor rough ground).
If feels weird that two different infantry units could potentially have~+60% combat modifiers based on whether they're on rough or open ground.
These kind of modifiers just feel like too much.
What historic factors are they trying to replicate here?
And these feel like really weird bonuses for Shock and Drill promotions.
Being well-drilled doesn't help you in open terrain?
The AI had also better be damn good at selecting the appropriate promotions for the terrain types its likely to encounter.
We used to have all kinds of different specializations on units - first strikes, withdraw chances, good vs cavalry, good vs melee, good vs archers, good in forests, intercept chance, etc.
But now we seem to have less variety.
But am I the only one that finds the Shock and Drill promotion lines potentially too much?
Favoring open vs rough ground should be primarily about unit type (cavalry and armor favor open ground, ranged units favor high ground, infantry favor rough ground).
If feels weird that two different infantry units could potentially have~+60% combat modifiers based on whether they're on rough or open ground.
These kind of modifiers just feel like too much.
What historic factors are they trying to replicate here?
And these feel like really weird bonuses for Shock and Drill promotions.
Being well-drilled doesn't help you in open terrain?
The AI had also better be damn good at selecting the appropriate promotions for the terrain types its likely to encounter.
We used to have all kinds of different specializations on units - first strikes, withdraw chances, good vs cavalry, good vs melee, good vs archers, good in forests, intercept chance, etc.
But now we seem to have less variety.
PinkHammurabi
Warlord
This is one of the areas where lack of realism doesn't bother me as long as it provides a fun and useful gameplay mechanic. While your examples are valid, I think the ability to customize my troops to a reasonable degree is useful and engaging.
And so far reports have been positive regarding the AI's use of troops. Let's hope these reviewers don't have tapioca pudding for a military advisor and can adequately gauge if the comp is playing intelligently.
And so far reports have been positive regarding the AI's use of troops. Let's hope these reviewers don't have tapioca pudding for a military advisor and can adequately gauge if the comp is playing intelligently.
Ahriman
Tyrant
But this is my point; we have less interesting customization than we used to.
Mercade
the Counsellor
They're from CivLegacy.com (don't know where they got them from).
http://civlegacy.com/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/civilization-v/236.jpg
I normally agree with you on most topics, so I think I can either convince you or have you convince me on this one.
If the open/rough terrain upgrades were any less, say 10% or 15%, wouldn't it just be weaker than the combat upgrades from Civ4 which worked in any circumstance? In fact, even at 20%, it is still less than the specialty upgrades in Civ4 for anti-melee and so on. I won't argue that it should be higher, as it will be torturous to try and beat a unit with 3 rough terrain upgrades while they're in rough terrain, but I'd say it's within 5% of the sweet spot. If it were any less, then a unit with *no* upgrades defending in the woods against a unit with 3 rough terrain upgrades would be at the advantage, which just feels wrong to me.
Secondly, I would argue that a lot of the Civ4 upgrades changed the unit stats quite a bit, but didn't alter strategy that much. The biggest example of this is first strikes, which quite simply just changed the odds in a different way than the strength upgrades, favouring combats that were already in your favour. The Civ4 upgrades that stood out as "cool" were the ones like extra movement, extra attacks, heal while moving, the woods upgrades, and the hills upgrades. This is because they actually changed the strategy that you used for those units.
I think the main criterion if an upgrade is good in Civ5 will be "Does this alter how I will use the unit?". This goes directly against your point that the AI better use them properly, because it's hard to design AI that will use those types of units correctly. I think the 1upt with a promotions system naturally creates this kind of environment where it'll be extremely hard for the AI to behave anything near a human player, in fact at the higher difficulties we'll probably see huge fighting bonuses for the AI, as there's almost no other way to go about it.
On a side note, I think the bombardment upgrades are more fun than the melee upgrades. I know some people are going to punish me for saying both this and that I think the Ottomans are weak, but I feel like a lot of the time I will want to create a navy specialized just for bombarding land units.
Ahriman
Tyrant
There does not appear to be a 10% generic combat bonus in Civ5.
True, but this is in part due to a stack combat system, where the best unit defends.
Specialization vs units types is much more interesting in a 1upt system, where you can play a cat and mouse game where you try and keep your scissors near their paper while staying away from their rock.
Yes, but.... deciding "do I put this on open terrain or rough terrain" is not really that interesting a decision.
I think withdraw chances were much more interesting in changing how you use a unit.
I'd like to see things like:
A suppression effect, that does little damage itself, but reduces the damage output of the targeted unit for the rest of the round.
[Like the Slow ability in Battle for Wesnoth]
A promotion that made the unit more effective at flanking (either it gained more bonus from enemies flanking the target, or it counted as 2 units for the purposes of other units attacking something it was adjacent to).
An ability that ignored the bonus that the enemy unit got from being adjacent to other units on its team (surprise attack).
A fortification ability that increased the bonus that the unit got from fortifying, or let it increase its fortification bonus more rapidly (combat engineers).
An ability that allowed a unit to ignore enemy fortification bonuses (sappers, flamethrowers).
A promotion that made the unit more resistant to bombardment attacks (shieldbearers).
A promotion that increased the damage the unit dealt out, but also the damage it received (bold attacker).
and so forth.
Yeah, we could probably mod some of these, but its hard for modders to get the AI to use them appropriately when they're not coded into the core AI.
All those upgrades sound really interesting. I'd wonder about war becoming a bit too complex (it's only one aspect of Civ), but that's just speculation on my part. I'd love to see a lot of those in Civ5...
I think there's nothing wrong with the rough/open terrain bonuses, but now that you mention those other upgrades, it seems lackluster compared to what it could have been.
I think there's nothing wrong with the rough/open terrain bonuses, but now that you mention those other upgrades, it seems lackluster compared to what it could have been.
Mercade
the Counsellor
Not sure if this was already observed, but this screenshot clearly shows how two naval transports can be in the same tile at the same time.
Edit. Just looked at the Well of Souls and apparently it has. Still a nice armada coming to pester India.
Spoiler :
Edit. Just looked at the Well of Souls and apparently it has. Still a nice armada coming to pester India.
I would like to weigh in on this debate, if that's okay!
While the suggestions Ahriman put forth are very interesting and would be welcome additions to the game, they are static benefits.
What I mean by this is, when you're advancing a front or retreating, you will always put a certain unit into a specific spot in the line. You'd want the shieldbearers in the front, the flank units have anti-flank bonuses, etc. You'd line them up in the exact same way every time and plan ahead.
However, with units with promotions like Medic and Shock and Drill, you would think very carefully about how you'd want to arrange your units as you march along. The skilled tactician that can easily shift around his units will win an even fight against someone who is merely throwing units into the fray. If a rough terrain goes to flat terrain, you'd want to adjust for it. If a part of the line got battered but not beaten, you'd want to rush a medic over to the area to tighten up that hole.
The other problem is the counter issue. Stronger bombardment is countered by shieldbearing, flanking counters antiflank, etc. This is fine, but there should also be unique benefits from promotions, such as medic (healing) and faster speed, easier movement through terrain and so on. These don't have any obvious counters and will always be present with the unit no matter who or what they're fighting.
While the suggestions Ahriman put forth are very interesting and would be welcome additions to the game, they are static benefits.
What I mean by this is, when you're advancing a front or retreating, you will always put a certain unit into a specific spot in the line. You'd want the shieldbearers in the front, the flank units have anti-flank bonuses, etc. You'd line them up in the exact same way every time and plan ahead.
However, with units with promotions like Medic and Shock and Drill, you would think very carefully about how you'd want to arrange your units as you march along. The skilled tactician that can easily shift around his units will win an even fight against someone who is merely throwing units into the fray. If a rough terrain goes to flat terrain, you'd want to adjust for it. If a part of the line got battered but not beaten, you'd want to rush a medic over to the area to tighten up that hole.
The other problem is the counter issue. Stronger bombardment is countered by shieldbearing, flanking counters antiflank, etc. This is fine, but there should also be unique benefits from promotions, such as medic (healing) and faster speed, easier movement through terrain and so on. These don't have any obvious counters and will always be present with the unit no matter who or what they're fighting.
danshep8
Chieftain
Not sure if this was already observed, but this screenshot clearly shows how two naval transports can be in the same tile at the same time.
Spoiler :
Edit. Just looked at the Well of Souls and apparently it has. Still a nice armada coming to pester India.
Yes, there may be two transports but they only carry one artillery unit (all units appear
to embark on two ships). It's a pity that the thing was out of moves, otherwise we
might have some idea how far these transports move per turn.
stealth_nsk
Deity
No, they are just shown as 2 ships. Look at the icons.
Ahriman
Tyrant
No it doesn't.
The graphics for transport units have two vessels in them, to help distinguish them visually from warships.
Just like the tank icon has 3 tanks on it, but is still a single unit.
Hi Tibblers, welcome to the CFC forum!
A totally reasonable point, and I agree that this is the one thing that makes the open/rough terrain things interesting.
Its just: having 2-3 levels of these (shock 1, shock 2, etc.) seems like overkill. Specialization to terrain is not that big a deal in any kind of real military history.
Well, I don't think faster speed is a great idea. We don't want infantry to be able to take on the role of cavalry. Medic ability is already confirmed as in Civ5.
I wasn't saying that the only promotions should be counters, merely that its a bit sad that the main combat promotions for infantry appear to just be about terrain.
PinkHammurabi
Warlord
Not sure if this was already observed, but this screenshot clearly shows how two naval transports can be in the same tile at the same time.
Spoiler :
Edit. Just looked at the Well of Souls and apparently it has. Still a nice armada coming to pester India.
Every era we've seen has embarked units displayed by two ships.
Edit: Sorry for redundant post, didn't see the others at the time.
Thanks!
Being familiar with a specific type of terrain has benefited many units throughout history, but I agree that an unit that fights 60% better as a result would be... very rare. I'd probably have capped it at 2 levels (40%) but the game seems to play fast and loose with the combat bonuses so maybe 60% isn't as big a deal as it looks. We'll see!
Oh, absolutely. I think more variety would be great. Being able to visualize a purpose for your unit and tailoring the promotions for it is fun. I think the game could afford a +1 to speed as a promotion, but certainly not a stack of 3 promotions for +3. I'm assuming here that cavalry could potentially get a +1 to movement promotion as well.
I think at this point I'm going to agree with you on this topic.
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