Psycho_Ivan
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2008
- Messages
- 218
But don't they raze the city that he's in if they enter it? 
Armageddon Oddities
- Thread starter Sarisin
- Start date
![[to_xp]Gekko](https://civfanatics-data.community.forum/avatars/m/74/74677.jpg?1475248346){kind=avatar}
[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
my gripes with Armageddon and Hell Terrain:
ok, the way hell terrain spreads right now ( first AV, then evil, then neutral, good is immune ) makes sense but I think it could get a tweak from a gameplay perspective... what I don't like here is that good civs are supposed to be the guys that want to get out there and fight against evil, but since they are immune from hell terrain they can just merrily sit there and watch evil civs get overwhelmed with hellish lands. so evil civs get punished for being evil while good civs get rewarded for being good basically. the only guys that get something out of raising the AC are the sheaim, and even for them the benefit is not as huge as you would like...
so I like the way that hell terrain spawns to evil territory first , but I think that preventing the advance of hell should not be a reward just for being good, but for being order ( and maybe empyrean ) . AV civs should get bonuses from hell terrain imho. that way good civs would have a good reason to go order and cleanse the world of evil, and evil civs would have a good reason to "sell their soul to the devil" and go AV. I think this would boost the feeling of "as the end of the world gets closer, you are encouraged to take sides, be it good or evil" and give more conflict and epic battles in the endgame.
btw, mercurians getting angels from good units and infernal getting manes from evil units are another thing that makes a lot of sense but isn't really good gameplay-wise imho... it works great with the AI as they will try to get allies to get involved in wars, and those allies will have units dying and providing them with angels/manes. but in the hands of a human player, it means that mercurians will get a lot of angels by killing GOOD civs while infernals get lots of manes by killing EVIL civs. I guess these two should be switched around. think Basium "redempting" evil units and giving them a chance to purge themselves of sin by aiding in the war against hell, and Hyborem corrupting good units and using them as infernal beings to help into his wicked plan
ok, the way hell terrain spreads right now ( first AV, then evil, then neutral, good is immune ) makes sense but I think it could get a tweak from a gameplay perspective... what I don't like here is that good civs are supposed to be the guys that want to get out there and fight against evil, but since they are immune from hell terrain they can just merrily sit there and watch evil civs get overwhelmed with hellish lands. so evil civs get punished for being evil while good civs get rewarded for being good basically. the only guys that get something out of raising the AC are the sheaim, and even for them the benefit is not as huge as you would like...
so I like the way that hell terrain spawns to evil territory first , but I think that preventing the advance of hell should not be a reward just for being good, but for being order ( and maybe empyrean ) . AV civs should get bonuses from hell terrain imho. that way good civs would have a good reason to go order and cleanse the world of evil, and evil civs would have a good reason to "sell their soul to the devil" and go AV. I think this would boost the feeling of "as the end of the world gets closer, you are encouraged to take sides, be it good or evil" and give more conflict and epic battles in the endgame.
btw, mercurians getting angels from good units and infernal getting manes from evil units are another thing that makes a lot of sense but isn't really good gameplay-wise imho... it works great with the AI as they will try to get allies to get involved in wars, and those allies will have units dying and providing them with angels/manes. but in the hands of a human player, it means that mercurians will get a lot of angels by killing GOOD civs while infernals get lots of manes by killing EVIL civs. I guess these two should be switched around. think Basium "redempting" evil units and giving them a chance to purge themselves of sin by aiding in the war against hell, and Hyborem corrupting good units and using them as infernal beings to help into his wicked plan
GeeJo
Flibbertigibbet
Personally, I wish that Hell terrain would have a universal -1
penalty. As it is, hell terrain really isn't that scary. "I lost my cows and corn, but these fields of perdition sure are plenty fertile!" Sacrifice the Weak would make up for the loss, but anyone who didn't either fall into line with the Ashen Veil or push hell out by signing up to the Order would need to actively work (i.e. build farms etc) to get above basic subsistence.
penalty. As it is, hell terrain really isn't that scary. "I lost my cows and corn, but these fields of perdition sure are plenty fertile!" Sacrifice the Weak would make up for the loss, but anyone who didn't either fall into line with the Ashen Veil or push hell out by signing up to the Order would need to actively work (i.e. build farms etc) to get above basic subsistence.
Mailbox
King
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2007
- Messages
- 888
Personally, I wish that Hell terrain would have a universal -1
I really like this as it wouldn't hurt the Infernals and the Sheaim could receive a + 1
bonus on all hell terrain.
[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
yep, nice idea. simple and it works just fine 
Yeah, Bill, I just hate it too when a group of pissed off William Shakespearean bards get after me.
I think it is a good strategy to use choke points, if you have them available because it does send the barbs reeling in another direction. I will also use a captured Elephant to block a choke point.
However, unless you have these choke points you can block, IMO you are screwed when the raging barbs target you in .34.
I wanted to update a couple of things from this thread based on my current game (Illians):
1. I was finally able to use BillSeuer's block the chokepoints method to see what happened with the new, improved targeting raging barbs.
I built and put my units on just about every tile surrounding my small civ of 4 cities. I had been getting hit for 300+ turns by barbs - usually 3-10 barbs per turn, not too bad, but still non-stop.
I did leave open those tiles on my border with Khazad and Decius/Calabim.
First, the barbs started marching along the line of units I set up. Some attacked, but most kept marching until they reached the open borders of Khazad and Decius. Great, I thought, this is just what I wanted. Channel the raging barbs away from me, the targeted one, to the undefended territory of AI civs.
However, the expected capture/razing of AI cities by barbs never came. After about 50 turns I opened up the World Builder to see where all the barbs were and who they were hitting. The answer?
They were gone. That's right, they simply stopped spawning.
Yes, there were at least 20 barb cities with one or more defenders (huge land map) and a few wandering Bears or Wolf Riders, but the steady stream of barbs that had attacked me for over 300 turns dried up. By blocking them from attacking me, they stopped spawning rather than choosing another target.
This was not what I expected at all.
2. On AC 40 Stephanos spawned. Even though I had my blockade set up, he came over to my civ. It was after attacking and killing other units, though, as he had promotions and was damaged down to Strength 7 + Unholy strength. Then, his bizarre behavior began.
He moved each turn (not taking time to heal) along my border and then to the opening in my picket line of units. I expected him to attack so sent a basic no-promotion Beastmaster as an enticing sacrifice for him to attack and kill. I figured this would weaken him further and a stronger Beastmaster, with Courage of course, would be able to dispatch him.
He ignored the bait, instead moving all around and ending his turn in a water tile each time where I was unable to attack him. I thought this was odd, but then remembered he now had the ability to waterwalk or fly or something.
Anyway, this dance is ongoing for many turns, but Stephanos refuses to attack or move on to another easy target in Khazad territory - even ignoring a nearby Dwarven worker building an improvement.
I really think based on these two examples that the new one-civ targeting system of the barbs is a little off the rails and maybe needs to be changed.
Anyone else seeing this whacky behavior of AI barbs?
1. I was finally able to use BillSeuer's block the chokepoints method to see what happened with the new, improved targeting raging barbs.
I built and put my units on just about every tile surrounding my small civ of 4 cities. I had been getting hit for 300+ turns by barbs - usually 3-10 barbs per turn, not too bad, but still non-stop.
I did leave open those tiles on my border with Khazad and Decius/Calabim.
First, the barbs started marching along the line of units I set up. Some attacked, but most kept marching until they reached the open borders of Khazad and Decius. Great, I thought, this is just what I wanted. Channel the raging barbs away from me, the targeted one, to the undefended territory of AI civs.
However, the expected capture/razing of AI cities by barbs never came. After about 50 turns I opened up the World Builder to see where all the barbs were and who they were hitting. The answer?
They were gone. That's right, they simply stopped spawning.
Yes, there were at least 20 barb cities with one or more defenders (huge land map) and a few wandering Bears or Wolf Riders, but the steady stream of barbs that had attacked me for over 300 turns dried up. By blocking them from attacking me, they stopped spawning rather than choosing another target.
This was not what I expected at all.
2. On AC 40 Stephanos spawned. Even though I had my blockade set up, he came over to my civ. It was after attacking and killing other units, though, as he had promotions and was damaged down to Strength 7 + Unholy strength. Then, his bizarre behavior began.
He moved each turn (not taking time to heal) along my border and then to the opening in my picket line of units. I expected him to attack so sent a basic no-promotion Beastmaster as an enticing sacrifice for him to attack and kill. I figured this would weaken him further and a stronger Beastmaster, with Courage of course, would be able to dispatch him.
He ignored the bait, instead moving all around and ending his turn in a water tile each time where I was unable to attack him. I thought this was odd, but then remembered he now had the ability to waterwalk or fly or something.
Anyway, this dance is ongoing for many turns, but Stephanos refuses to attack or move on to another easy target in Khazad territory - even ignoring a nearby Dwarven worker building an improvement.
I really think based on these two examples that the new one-civ targeting system of the barbs is a little off the rails and maybe needs to be changed.
Anyone else seeing this whacky behavior of AI barbs?
Incredibly, I had ALL FOUR of the Horsemen beeline for my civ after being created a good distance away.
I killed all three, but not until losing a few strong, veteran units that they Pearl Harbored out of nowhere.
It really is frustrating when your civ is targeted the whole freakin' game.
There are still five AI civs in the game, including Hyborem who may or may not be at peace with the barbs, yet I get a visit from all the Horsemen.
I just can't wait to see if I get the Avatar too. If I was a betting man, I would say he is coming....
PS. One other funny note on this. The AI created TumTum and, naturally, he strolled a ways over to my civ. However, I still had my blockade on so he appeared to be truly befuddled and just meandered around (gaining XP?). He never did attack, but his hanging around made me nervous so I went out and killed him. I screwed up, though, because in hindsight I could have used a Beastmaster to capture him, I think.
I killed all three, but not until losing a few strong, veteran units that they Pearl Harbored out of nowhere.
It really is frustrating when your civ is targeted the whole freakin' game.
There are still five AI civs in the game, including Hyborem who may or may not be at peace with the barbs, yet I get a visit from all the Horsemen.
I just can't wait to see if I get the Avatar too. If I was a betting man, I would say he is coming....
PS. One other funny note on this. The AI created TumTum and, naturally, he strolled a ways over to my civ. However, I still had my blockade on so he appeared to be truly befuddled and just meandered around (gaining XP?). He never did attack, but his hanging around made me nervous so I went out and killed him. I screwed up, though, because in hindsight I could have used a Beastmaster to capture him, I think.
BillSeurer
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2007
- Messages
- 114
Yay! I have a "method" named after me.
It appears from many games that when the barbs start building cities their spawning rate drops of DRASTICALLY. Are they perhaps not spawning in areas visible to barbarian cities? In my current game even with Raging barbarians this happened.
Endless hordes of barbarians = awesome, if you remove the barbarian xp cap. It makes no sense to me in CIV anyway as the barbarians get everything full civs do.
However, I'd rather see the global orc alliance, frequently referred to as barbarians split into several, maybe dozens of unplayable orc clan civs that are locked in war with everybody else, including each other.
However, I'd rather see the global orc alliance, frequently referred to as barbarians split into several, maybe dozens of unplayable orc clan civs that are locked in war with everybody else, including each other.
I think having Hybo parked near your borders should cause mass hysteria until the infernals are wiped out...
example:
I am walking down the street and suddenly learn (thru CNN 'course) the devil and it's hordes decide to setup in the town next door...you best believe I'd rally at my local civic center with an AK instead of- "Gee looks like the forces of Hell have checked in...there goes the neighbourhood!"
example:
I am walking down the street and suddenly learn (thru CNN 'course) the devil and it's hordes decide to setup in the town next door...you best believe I'd rally at my local civic center with an AK instead of- "Gee looks like the forces of Hell have checked in...there goes the neighbourhood!"
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