Armies of Asia

[Xyth]

There are three new packs in the first post, the Filipino ancient and medieval packs and the Aceh Sultanate.

They look fantastic.

Sorry! I forgot to make the horse archer! That's the next thing on my list. I'll edit this post when I finish it.

Thank you!

 

[Bakuel]

They look fantastic.

Thanks!

Thank you!

And here is the horsearcher!

Sorry for the month wait.

 

[ramzay1945]

Just an incredible work! I am happy as a child

I will not do bad, if I ask, who will be next?

 

[Bakuel]

Thanks for the kind words!

I'm going to do some industrial units for Malay, Java, and the Philippines then I'm going to make some Khmer units.

 

[Matsuda123]

Every time I think I've seen the best unit graphics from you Bakuel, you always surprise me by upping the quality again. Firaxis should have had you on their team for Civ 4. :good job:

I know it will be a while, but whenever you get to Japan, for their crossbowman, are you going to use the civ 3 sengoku stone crossbowman as a reference? I've always thought he was pretty cool, that and that fire cannon... Other than one book I've found from Japan and civ 3, I can't seem to find crossbowmen from Japan. Not really sure why considering the Chinese used them constantly...

 

[Bakuel]

Every time I think I've seen the best unit graphics from you Bakuel, you always surprise me by upping the quality again. Firaxis should have had you on their team for Civ 4. :good job:

Thanks for the kind words!

I wouldn't blame the Firaxis 3d artist too *much*, they were probably expected to produce a complete art style, map graphics, leaderheads, unit models, and animations within 2-3 months to parade in front of the producers and money men to show how much work was being done on the project and spit out graphics for advertising. Since few people can understand code it usually falls to the graphics guys to fling stuff out so the projects can continue to get funded.

I on the other hand, can lovingly slave over 128x128 textures and create and tweak models so it fits on them just right. If I was working for a paycheck I would have been fired a long time ago!

I know it will be a while, but whenever you get to Japan, for their crossbowman, are you going to use the civ 3 sengoku stone crossbowman as a reference? I've always thought he was pretty cool, that and that fire cannon...

Sure, but do you have a good picture of the unit?

Other than one book I've found from Japan and civ 3, I can't seem to find crossbowmen from Japan. Not really sure why considering the Chinese used them constantly...

From what I little I know of the subject, it seems that the Japanese did use crossbows but they fell out of use after the tenth century and even before that they were never popular. The Japanese did make extensive use of their own siege ballista which they called oyumi.

This book, Samurai, Warfare and the State in Early Medieval Japan has a long discussion on projectile weapons and goes into detail on the use of the crossbow and the oyumi siege ballista. Thankfully that chapter is online. It argues that the hand held Chinese style crossbow's composite stave uses a variety of animal products (glue, sinew.etc) which would have been more expansive for the Japanese then the Asian people of the mainland. Japanese longbows are made from wood or bamboo but a crossbow made from the same materials would of either been extremely large (which is why siege giant ballista were popular) or so weak to have been worthless. It also argues that Japanese style warfare and the way the armies were organized simply made them unenthusiastic about hand-held crossbow use.

I'm not sold on the last point, Karl F. Friday argues that the only way to get good tactical use out of the crossbow is through drilling and shooting in formation. But Europeans, Middle Easterners, and South-East Asians all seem to have incorporated crossbows into their systems of warfare with varying levels and few of them, as far as I know, used firing drills. I think that the professional Genoese crossbowmen and others like them may have used a rotary drill while in the field, but it seems a little dubious to argue that this is the only way to get effective use out of the weapon... You need only consider it's use from behind walls or palisades or during ambushes. But I may be wrong.

 

[Matsuda123]

Well, even still, it brings me into the game a lot more then usual. It's the fact that with unit makers like you and and building makers like Hrochland, I can mod the game to be more beautiful and immersive than ever. I really feel like Civ IV is superior to Civ V in every way, and in the ways that V is for me, I can simply modify Civ IV to have those aspects. Units like yours and terrain from Realism Invictus and RFC DOC together will be incredible... If only I could learn how to add those clouds from PIE's europe mod to the top of some mountains, the experience would be complete for me.

I don't have them yet, but I can get those to you soon, I'll post them here.
I'm really curious where Firaxis got the knowledge for Stone crossbowmen though. I've not found any info about them, but I could easily be missing something. Cool unit though, love it.

Yeah I remember something about that. Aside from what you've told me and that, the only other explanation for it has been that they considered it dishonorable, or that the peasants would become too strong. But I don't really buy those either. I don't think the terrain would have stopped them from carrying them since they loved siege crossbows... Strange deal I guess.

It kind of reminds me about the Teppo gun I messaged you about a bit ago, I don't really understand why the Japanese essentially had the Chinese heavy fire lance, and then they just abandoned it for some reason...

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I believe the main reason for non-adoption of crossbows and early firearms (firelances from China), as well as later massive adoption of firearms during late Sengoku period is in both cases the composition of armies.

Medieval Japanese army would be mostly samurai-based, which is to say consisted of a relatively small amount of professional warriors. Bow training was essential to samurai, hence no need for any other ranged weapon. Also, pre-Sengoku Japanese warfare would involve armies of relatively small scale, with battles quickly devolving into series of single combats (something that was long phased out on the continent by that time; China, for instance, would see mass infantry formations fielded already in Qin era). Crossbows and similar arms just have no practical place in such a military environment.

Crossbows and firearms are first and foremost weapons for arming levied peasants - and when massed ashigaru armies appear in Sengoku period, we see exactly that, a rapid adoption of then-state-of-the-art firearms. When battles shift focus to large infantry formations, weapons like crossbow or arquebus quickly and inevitably rise to prominence. If that shift of focus happened earlier, we'd see crossbow-armed ashigaru (though one might argue that arrival of firearms was exactly what brought the rise of ashigaru as a viable fighting force anyway).

 

[ramzay1945]

I quickly make samurai from Your unit, but I still waiting when You will do japan units

 

[Matsuda123]

Well that is a pretty good explanation Walter. I can easily that happening actually, and it makes sense since Japan was behind China in technology and tactics for a while. I personally would've thought those fire lances to be a good scaring weapon, but then again they were somewhat hazardous to use for a while.

Does anyone know of any study resource for firaxis's use of stone crossbowmen though?

That's a pretty good looking unit Ramzay, I always thought the civ 4 vanilla samurai was too showy... This looks more natural. Do you have a download link for it by chance? If not that's ok.

 

[ramzay1945]

That's a pretty good looking unit Ramzay, I always thought the civ 4 vanilla samurai was too showy... This looks more natural. Do you have a download link for it by chance? If not that's ok.

If Bakuel will allow - I will upload it in Downloads Database

 

[Bakuel]

I believe the main reason for non-adoption of crossbows and early firearms (firelances from China), as well as later massive adoption of firearms during late Sengoku period is in both cases the composition of armies.

Medieval Japanese army would be mostly samurai-based, which is to say consisted of a relatively small amount of professional warriors. Bow training was essential to samurai, hence no need for any other ranged weapon. Also, pre-Sengoku Japanese warfare would involve armies of relatively small scale, with battles quickly devolving into series of single combats (something that was long phased out on the continent by that time; China, for instance, would see mass infantry formations fielded already in Qin era). Crossbows and similar arms just have no practical place in such a military environment.

Crossbows and firearms are first and foremost weapons for arming levied peasants - and when massed ashigaru armies appear in Sengoku period, we see exactly that, a rapid adoption of then-state-of-the-art firearms. When battles shift focus to large infantry formations, weapons like crossbow or arquebus quickly and inevitably rise to prominence. If that shift of focus happened earlier, we'd see crossbow-armed ashigaru (though one might argue that arrival of firearms was exactly what brought the rise of ashigaru as a viable fighting force anyway).

Thanks! That's a much better explanation!

Well that is a pretty good explanation Walter. I can easily that happening actually, and it makes sense since Japan was behind China in technology and tactics for a while. I personally would've thought those fire lances to be a good scaring weapon, but then again they were somewhat hazardous to use for a while.

Don't forget that early Song fire lances were mainly used in sieges. I don't know that much about pre-sengoku era Japan (12th-15), but I'm pretty sure that sieges were rare. With the lack of massed armies there would have been very little use for fire lances.

I wouldn't be too hard on Japan's three hundred odd year military stagnation. Japan was, on paper, a united nation under a ceremonial-spiritual emperor and a shogun with all the real power. In reality, the shogun and the powerful clans held the country in a fragile balance of power. Besides the Mongol invasions, it was mostly just samurai fighting other samurai using the similar weapons and tactics. In such a situation there was no need for new weapons. Pre-modern peoples usually only adopted new military systems only after their virtues have been taught through defeat. While people often play up the martial aspect of Japanese nobles, they were just as devoted administrators and, like many governments throughout history, were probably conservative when it came to military investment.

Also, remember that Japan was not as wealthy during this era when compared to the 15th-17th centuries, which was when East and South-East Asia, India and Europe went through a massive trade boom as Europe created a direct trade link with the east. Japanese trading companies could be found in the Philippines, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam and elsewhere. However, during the pre-sengoku era, while Japan did have trade, it was on a much smaller scale. The idea of importing large numbers of new weapons and instructors to teach a new style of warfare that you weren't even sure would work, was probably an expensive investment that didn't appeal to the everyday feudal lord.

The one thing which could have forced the shogun government to invest in larger and better controlled armies with new levy friendly weapons was the Mongol invasions and those were mostly defeated through a fluke.

Does anyone know of any study resource for firaxis's use of stone crossbowmen though?

I haven't seen it, but if the crossbow shoots stones or pelts then that's a pretty normal function of crossbows. Many crossbows the world over can shoot stones or pelts by using a modified string. In south-east asia a lot of rural hunters prefer stones when hunting small game. I don't know about it's use in warfare though.

Firaxis may have heard about the large Japanese ballistas or oyumi that could shoot stones as well as bolts, then misinterpreted them as smaller hand crossbows.

If Bakuel will allow - I will upload it in Downloads Database

Sure, go ahead and upload it. It's a nice unit! As long as credit is given I don't really mind, civ modding is a free open source hobby.

All this Japanese talk is making me want to go read up on Japanese history and make some Japanese units myself.

 

[Matsuda123]

Yeah that is true Bakuel... Not only that but the first fire lances were one shot weapons, only by the 1200s did the Chinese start having iron cast tubes. So along with those reasons, it would have been expensive for them to train large armies to use them, and gunpowder may have been a bit harder to come across for a time, leaving only some in Japan to have the iron cast fire lance.

That is very possible, after all from what I've read, no one has really seen an oyumi so it could have been both.

I'll have those pictures in tonight, shouldn't be too hard. If you need any picture resources, I can send you the links if you want.

 

[Matsuda123]

Alright, here are all the Sengoku units if anyone else wanted them, with the stone crossbowman and fire cannon of course.

From left to right - Row 1: Stone Crossbowman, Samurai Arquebusier, Fire Cannon, Catapult, Siege Crossbow, Spearman (Nara period), Yamabushi Warrior Monk, Samurai Archer

Row 2: Ronin, Peasant Worker, Ninja, Mounted Samurai Warrior, Settler, Mounted Samurai Archer, Daimyo

 

[Bakuel]

Thanks for the pictures, I'll use the stone crossbowman as a reference when I get to Japan. The basic dress is historically accurate, even if the weapon is odd. Besides, he's wearing one of those nifty hats, I love those things.

 

[Matsuda123]

I agree, that hat is probably one of the reasons I like the unit so much. I wonder what it's called though.

What program(s) do you use to make 3d models Bakuel? I was thinking I'd like to try and model an Industrial era Asian city set, mostly based off of the Meiji period since we currently don't have one. The only bad part is I'm on a mac... but I do have a regular computer too so I could use that.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Thanks! That's a much better explanation!

It doesn't exclude your comment regarding materials - that would be an additional barrier for adoption. But I should point out here that crossbows in Japan were usually made from whale bone, not domestic animal stuff.

I wouldn't be too hard on Japan's three hundred odd year military stagnation. Japan was, on paper, a united nation under a ceremonial-spiritual emperor and a shogun with all the real power. In reality, the shogun and the powerful clans held the country in a fragile balance of power. Besides the Mongol invasions, it was mostly just samurai fighting other samurai using the similar weapons and tactics. In such a situation there was no need for new weapons. Pre-modern peoples usually only adopted new military systems only after their virtues have been taught through defeat. While people often play up the martial aspect of Japanese nobles, they were just as devoted administrators and, like many governments throughout history, were probably conservative when it came to military investment.

I was always fascinated by Japanese military development history - it's a country that illustrates very well that meaningful military evolution requires prolonged warfare and (usually) external threats. Japan, as a relatively isolated country going through lengthy periods of peace and stability, tended to develop in clear leaps when it comes to military history - whenever large conflicts or potential wars arose, they quickly used imported military technology and indigenous military thought to "catch up" and for a short while were on the forefront of military thought - but later stagnated spectacularly.

Classical japanese samurai, developed during lengthy Gempei war, was absolutely state-of-the-art for the time being. But then it not only didn't evolve in a meaningful (from military PoV) way until Sengoku period, but even declined in usefulness, as lengthy stretches of peace focused samurai on dueling/hunting rather than warfare, and samurai tactics, arms and armor evolved accordingly.

A XV century samurai is an excellent hunter and duelist (hence, among other thing, the fascination with "pitting" samurai against other hypothetical warriors), but in conflict with any dominant military of that era, Japanese army would be utterly crushed. By that time, all meaningful armies began to rely on infantry pike formations with supporting fire from drilled troops. That would have decimated a samurai cavalry charge as surely as a machine gun. Yet, starting with Oda Nobunaga, Japan rapidly adopts both tactics (massed drilled infantry) and equipment (plate armor, firearms) of outsiders.

A very good example is Nobunaga's personal set of armor - when I saw it in a museum in a row of armors aligned in a chronological order, I could immediately pinpoint it as his even without mon - instead of traditional beautiful lamellar/laquered centerpiece, it had a european-style "boring but practical" breastplate. See if you can spot the real armor he wore in this picture: http://www.oocities.org/azuchiwind/oda_nobunaga_3armors.jpg

Same thing happens in XIX century, when Great Powers of the time successfully demonstrated superiority over Japan, and prompted another rapid military modernization.

Does anyone know of any study resource for firaxis's use of stone crossbowmen though?

I don't know the resource they used, but stone crossbow ("ishiyumi") was a thing. It was usually a modification of siege crossbow though, not hand-held. Here's a book example.

Hand-held crossbows were a thing in early Japan (called Teppo Yumi), but they were largely confined to recreational purposes. They even had some repeating crossbows from China reverse-engineered, but ultimately found no meaningful use for them (remember that the repeating crossbow is primarily a siege defense tool). In pre-samurai era (before XI century), there were some attempts to outfit Japanese soldiers with crossbows, but the rise of samurai prevented that from happening for the reasons outlined in my previous post. The only crossbow-based implements that were left in service were the siege oyumi, but actually it was also largely phased out by XII century.

Here's a lot of text (in Russian) and lots of pictures for various Japanese crossbows: http://vk.com/wall-40187114_94

To sum it up, all forms of crossbows, including teppo yumi, ishiyumi both handheld and siege, and oyumi should only be used for units of pre-samurai era Japan.

 

[Bakuel]

It doesn't exclude your comment regarding materials - that would be an additional barrier for adoption. But I should point out here that crossbows in Japan were usually made from whale bone, not domestic animal stuff.

That's interesting, how powerful were whalebone crossbows?
That's probably further evidence for Karl Friday's expansive animal materials theory. How many whales did ancient Japan bring in a year and how expensive was whale bone? I actually went off in a tangent and I saw that hand harpoon whaling is said to have only started in 12th century Japan, just about when crossbows were disappearing if they hadn't already disappeared, and large scale whaling only started in the 16th century. The 12th century date, mind you, comes from only one site, I don't know if anyone has done any extensive research on ancient Japanese whaling methods and numbers... Whaling is a simply process with the Inuit being the most famous examples of low tech whalers armed with hand harpoons, but the amount they can bring in is very limited by both the seasonal migrations and the danger. In Japan, the numbers before even hand harpoons were adopted must have had to be on the low side. As large as whales are, there probably wasn't enough whale bone to supply tens of thousands of crossbows for a hypothetical levy army. The costs must have been higher then a Chinese crossbow stave made from wood, glue, sinew and horn.

To sum it up, all forms of crossbows, including teppo yumi, ishiyumi both handheld and siege, and oyumi should only be used for units of pre-samurai era Japan.

Thanks for the info and those pictures will help a lot with modeling.

Fulfilling the request for one historical fantasy sengoku stone crossbow unit won't be any major problem. The crossbow model will have to be made for the early units, and the basic dress of the sengoku unit (hat+cuirass) was one that I had already planned. Making and skinning the models is the hard, putting them together in different combinations is pretty easy.
Besides, many mods don't have a extensive medieval period and modders may want to have all of the Japanese medieval units in sengoku era dress for aesthetic reasons and they will probably be happy with the option.

 

[Matsuda123]

Honestly I'm just happy that there will finally be ancient/classical era Japanese units not in sengoku dress as well. Yayoi and Nara periods don't seem to be covered much on civfanatics unit wise, and it always kind of bothered me to see medieval units in ancient times, so to know that one of the best unit makers is making them is incredible.

With that knowledge of crossbow production in mind, how did the Japanese acquire so much gunpowder for the matchlocks? I'm certain Japan has some natural ingredients for gunpowder, but what about saltpeter? Or did they mostly purchase it?

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

That's interesting, how powerful were whalebone crossbows?
That's probably further evidence for Karl Friday's expansive animal materials theory. How many whales did ancient Japan bring in a year and how expensive was whale bone? I actually went off in a tangent and I saw that hand harpoon whaling is said to have only started in 12th century Japan, just about when crossbows were disappearing if they hadn't already disappeared, and large scale whaling only started in the 16th century. The 12th century date, mind you, comes from only one site, I don't know if anyone has done any extensive research on ancient Japanese whaling methods and numbers... Whaling is a simply process with the Inuit being the most famous examples of low tech whalers armed with hand harpoons, but the amount they can bring in is very limited by both the seasonal migrations and the danger. In Japan, the numbers before even hand harpoons were adopted must have had to be on the low side. As large as whales are, there probably wasn't enough whale bone to supply tens of thousands of crossbows for a hypothetical levy army. The costs must have been higher then a Chinese crossbow stave made from wood, glue, sinew and horn.

Went looking for sources, and my own post is now #4 source on Japanese whalebone crossbows.

Anyway, use of whalebone in crossbow was actually quite common outside Japan as well - in England and in continental Europe, whalebone crossbows were also by no means rare. Well-preserved crossbow of Matthias Corvinus (Hungary), for instance, is whalebone. Anyway, the claim about Japan is made, for instance, in this book, and it pertains more to teppo yumi, which, as I said, would likely be used by wealthy folks for recreational purposes and thus economic concerns were probably not an issue for them. Whalebone is routinely listed as a material for crossbows all over, and thus I guess it should have provided tensile strength comparable to or even better than that of horn.

Large o-yumi is much more tolerant to the materials used. I believe they could be made purely from bamboo - the large size compensating for the suboptimal materials.

Thanks for the info and those pictures will help a lot with modeling.

Fulfilling the request for one historical fantasy sengoku stone crossbow unit won't be any major problem. The crossbow model will have to be made for the early units, and the basic dress of the sengoku unit (hat+cuirass) was one that I had already planned. Making and skinning the models is the hard, putting them together in different combinations is pretty easy.
Besides, many mods don't have a extensive medieval period and modders may want to have all of the Japanese medieval units in sengoku era dress for aesthetic reasons and they will probably be happy with the option.

Truth be said, I agree with Matsuda123 here; if you are going to make Japanese units (and I am fine with that), please let them be pre-Sengoku, especially since that would be more accurate with regard to stone crossbow. We modders need some pre-Sengoku units for Japan.

With that knowledge of crossbow production in mind, how did the Japanese acquire so much gunpowder for the matchlocks? I'm certain Japan has some natural ingredients for gunpowder, but what about saltpeter? Or did they mostly purchase it?

Yep, saltpeter was imported from foreign sources. Monopoly on saltpeter import was actually one of the important factors of Tokugawa clan dominance post-Sengoku (http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h48japan.htm).