Txurce
Deity
I think Thal once said that he wants to kep the game as close to vanilla as possible, and so has avoided any new units.
Armies
- Thread starter Thalassicus
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I think Thal once said that he wants to kep the game as close to vanilla as possible, and so has avoided any new units.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
@Txurce
I think missiles can only go on nuclear submarines and missile cruisers, not carriers.
@Stalker0
Swords were already better than spears at 11 strength:
@Busdriver
I've already done so with anti-tank guns and paratroopers. No analogue currently exists in the renaissance, but cannon are quite good on defense.
I think missiles can only go on nuclear submarines and missile cruisers, not carriers.
@Stalker0
Swords were already better than spears at 11 strength:
Spoiler :
@Busdriver
I've already done so with anti-tank guns and paratroopers. No analogue currently exists in the renaissance, but cannon are quite good on defense.
Spoiler :
Txurce
Deity
Late in a b. 14 game - most techs researched, successful AI have many SP's - I just noticed that a land unit killed another land unit, and I didn't get any Spoils of War. The AI in question is making about 320gpt.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Which units were they?
Txurce
Deity
A Panzer killing a Rifleman, but it was all units after that (and probably for a while before). Again, I had no problem with it for the first 250 or so turns.
Has anyone else noticed this?
Txurce
Deity
In my next game the same thing happened much earlier... and then I quit capturing barbs. My guess would be that I didn't clear my cache, etc, when downloading b14.
This is too bad, because the game I just ended early - a second one with Germany - was going very well, playing much as we discussed on the Denmark thread. I built the NC, then five cities, at war with Denmark the whole time, after which I took his two cities around 700 AD. At that point I had the high score on my five-civ continent and a tremendous infrastructure. I'll try it again soon (sigh) but this definitely seems like the way to go.
This is too bad, because the game I just ended early - a second one with Germany - was going very well, playing much as we discussed on the Denmark thread. I built the NC, then five cities, at war with Denmark the whole time, after which I took his two cities around 700 AD. At that point I had the high score on my five-civ continent and a tremendous infrastructure. I'll try it again soon (sigh) but this definitely seems like the way to go.
I think that's my point. You already have a unit that is solid and strong, and definitely superior to the resourceless unit of the era.
So what made you consider them weak and needing a boost back to 12 strength?
Questdog
Prince
Two question topics:
1) Is there a way to make the Amphibious promotion less powerful?
I want to make fighting across rivers and from oceans more difficult (~-50%) and make the Amphibious promotion reduce the penalty to 25% (because it's not realistic to have NO penalty; plus it makes those terrain features superfluous if there is no penalty). Also, will the AI take note of these changes (become less likely to fight across a river)? Plus, I'd like to make units much more vulnerable when they are in the water. I tried this, but the AI didn't seem to take notice and happily sent its units to certain death in the water. Is there a way to make the AI take better care of its units?
2) Is there a way to bring troop transports back? I don't like this "pop boats out our arses at will" mechanic. Or as an alternative, you could make a unit spend a couple of turns waiting for the boats to be sent up before they can enter water.
P.S. I also have banned the InstaHeal promotion from my games. Nothing is more annoying and cheesier than winning a hard fought battle where your unit beat the enemy down to a 4 to 1 HP advantage only to have your proud and victorious unit eliminated next turn when the enemy InstaHeals.
1) Is there a way to make the Amphibious promotion less powerful?
I want to make fighting across rivers and from oceans more difficult (~-50%) and make the Amphibious promotion reduce the penalty to 25% (because it's not realistic to have NO penalty; plus it makes those terrain features superfluous if there is no penalty). Also, will the AI take note of these changes (become less likely to fight across a river)? Plus, I'd like to make units much more vulnerable when they are in the water. I tried this, but the AI didn't seem to take notice and happily sent its units to certain death in the water. Is there a way to make the AI take better care of its units?
2) Is there a way to bring troop transports back? I don't like this "pop boats out our arses at will" mechanic. Or as an alternative, you could make a unit spend a couple of turns waiting for the boats to be sent up before they can enter water.
P.S. I also have banned the InstaHeal promotion from my games. Nothing is more annoying and cheesier than winning a hard fought battle where your unit beat the enemy down to a 4 to 1 HP advantage only to have your proud and victorious unit eliminated next turn when the enemy InstaHeals.
Txurce
Deity
1. I think amphibious landings already have a 50% nerf, and there is also a penalty for fighting across a river. Vulnerability to shelling in the water and AI cautiousness are coded in by the devs.
2. Basically, no.
Questdog
Prince
Unless, it's been changed in a very recent build, I don't think the vanilla values for river attack and amphibious assault have been tampered with and they are much less that 50%.
You CAN make the units more vulnerable in the water in the XML code. As I said, I have done this. But the problem with doing it is that the AI doesn't seem to know it's been done and has no qualms about sending their troops into the water where they are sitting ducks....
And the more I think about it, the more I like my idea of making a unit wait a couple of turns before it can enter a water hex. This would simulate the fact that amphibious assaults and water transport are not something inherit in a unit and must be prepared before hand. Right now it seems that the units are all made of magic stuff that can float....
You CAN make the units more vulnerable in the water in the XML code. As I said, I have done this. But the problem with doing it is that the AI doesn't seem to know it's been done and has no qualms about sending their troops into the water where they are sitting ducks....
And the more I think about it, the more I like my idea of making a unit wait a couple of turns before it can enter a water hex. This would simulate the fact that amphibious assaults and water transport are not something inherit in a unit and must be prepared before hand. Right now it seems that the units are all made of magic stuff that can float....
Consider that any movement involves in Civ time....centuries, years, even months. Movement has always been a big abstraction in civ, so the fact that you can build a boat and carry your army into the ocean in the span of a few years doesn't bother me.
Questdog
Prince
The turns may be labeled as representing many years, but the flavor of the combat is definitely not what would be simulated if you really considered the turns to be several years in duration.
And by that view, why does it taken a couple of hundred years to build a mine?....
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
@Stalker0
Some of my decisions are just based on instinct. While playing my current game, I felt the early strategic units were a little underwhelming, so I buffed them.
@Questdog
1) The amphibious attribute is a true/false setting. The AI is coded in the c++ we don't have access to, and I believe it ignores the 25% amphib penalty.
2) There is a "CargoChange" attribute in the unit promotion file, though I haven't tested it.
3) I've been on the fence about the instant heal promotion for a long while... haven't ever decided if it's a good or bad thing to keep in the game. I personally preferred the old method of a heal upon choosing any promotion (in Civ 4) but I don't think there's a way for us to do that without c++ access.
Some of my decisions are just based on instinct. While playing my current game, I felt the early strategic units were a little underwhelming, so I buffed them.
@Questdog
1) The amphibious attribute is a true/false setting. The AI is coded in the c++ we don't have access to, and I believe it ignores the 25% amphib penalty.
2) There is a "CargoChange" attribute in the unit promotion file, though I haven't tested it.
3) I've been on the fence about the instant heal promotion for a long while... haven't ever decided if it's a good or bad thing to keep in the game. I personally preferred the old method of a heal upon choosing any promotion (in Civ 4) but I don't think there's a way for us to do that without c++ access.
Questdog
Prince
In Civ4 your units were usually in a big stack so they were not vulnerable to newly healed AI units like they are now, where there is nowhere to hide them.
Besides what is the rational for the healing? It makes a successful combat become not only meaningless, but actually a very stupid thing you just did. You'd have been better off not attacking them in the first place.
And it would be slightly better if you knew in advance that any attack on your part would lead to the unit having the ability to heal. But as it is now, you have no way of knowing an opponents XP's. You don't even get to know some of their promotions; i.e. not knowing that the AI unit could move two hexes in this terrain as opposed to the normal one. (I know we have the option of having promotions visible over the units, but that doesn't always work).
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Keep in mind that removing the heal nerfs the AI and buffs the human. We're much better at organizing our army in defensive lines capable of withstanding surprise attacks. We are also better at recognizing imminent threats to our units to move out of harm's way. The AI doesn't plan ahead like this. If its unit is damaged, it usually just sits there trying to heal, unless the army as a whole is retreating.
The insta-heal is also not a free heal. We're weakened in the long run because it wastes a lot of experience. I prefer to retreat my units before they're put in such a dangerous position, and haven't used the insta-heal in several months. I haven't lost a unit to an instant-healed enemy in a while either. I don't engage in battle unless I believe I can win the next battle a turn later. This is important for more than just if the enemy heals - the AI might also purchase a unit to attack with.
Unit flag promotions haven't given me trouble in a few months... if you've encountered any problems with those, please start a thread in the bug report forum.
The insta-heal is also not a free heal. We're weakened in the long run because it wastes a lot of experience. I prefer to retreat my units before they're put in such a dangerous position, and haven't used the insta-heal in several months. I haven't lost a unit to an instant-healed enemy in a while either. I don't engage in battle unless I believe I can win the next battle a turn later. This is important for more than just if the enemy heals - the AI might also purchase a unit to attack with.
Unit flag promotions haven't given me trouble in a few months... if you've encountered any problems with those, please start a thread in the bug report forum.
Txurce
Deity
I don't remember why Paratroopers were buffed - just that it was controversial. After playing a few games with the change, I can say that they are OP on defense. I just blasted one with two highly promoted rocket artillery and three bombers in order to kill it. This feels out of whack with other units - never mind that there is no RL equation between paratroopers and super defense.
Because its an abstraction, which is my point.
Your saying it doesn't make sense that an army can move without a transport. I'm saying there are lot of things in civ that don't make sense when you really analyze them...that's from Civ I to V.
Personally I love embarkation. Naval combat, beachhead invasions, and island colonization has never worked as well for me than they have in Civ V.
Questdog
Prince
My biggest problem with it is that it takes away a lot of strategy where you should be able to box an army in between your units and the ocean. But now they just go swimming where they are invulnerable....
In real life armies can't go amphibious on the fly; it takes a ton of preparation to put an army to sea. With units able to swim at will it takes away much of the distinction between land and sea. Now the biggest difference between the two terrains is that units are invulnerable to everything but ranged fire in the water and normally land-based units can be boxed into positions in the water during peacetime since there is no pass-through for them.....
It really is stupid.....
Txurce
Deity
You didn't mention that they are completely vulnerable to being rammed by any naval unit. That makes them as vulnerable as workers.
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