Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I could give Landsknecht an upgrade discount, since they're mercenaries. There is an unused "UpgradeDiscount" field in the UnitPromotions table. It could be balanced with a 75% cost modifier (up from 50%).
Armies
- Thread starter Thalassicus
- Start date
Ahriman
Tyrant
I like this idea.
One question would be; would the upgrade discount be only for landsknecht -> musket, or would it stay for mustket-rifle, etc?
Making it stay would give Germany a lot more staying power, and much more of a long-term benefit from its UA and UU; it would be less of a one-trick pony.
Txurce
Deity
I wouldn't go too far here. Keep in mind that Germany is already in a class of its own in terms of fielding a big early army that then promotes cheaply to landsknechts. And of course, they're not mercenaries any more once they're muskets.
German side note: I finally gave away a bunch of my barb ships as down payments on cultural friendships and alliances. They are still coming out of the woodwork, though.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
@Ahriman
The pattern I've followed is if a UU has a bonus the 'default' unit lacks, that bonus is a "gold" promotion which persists when upgraded. This pattern is not an absolute necessity, however, so this particular bonus could be "silver."
@Txurce
The idea is to increase the cost to upgrade to the Lansknecht, and lower the cost to upgrade from it by a proportional amount. In principle the two changes can balance one another. It could shift some German power from the Medieval to Renaissance. I think we can agree Bismark is very front-heavy right now, which is not bad, but it might be worthwhile to even things out a bit.
The pattern I've followed is if a UU has a bonus the 'default' unit lacks, that bonus is a "gold" promotion which persists when upgraded. This pattern is not an absolute necessity, however, so this particular bonus could be "silver."
@Txurce
The idea is to increase the cost to upgrade to the Lansknecht, and lower the cost to upgrade from it by a proportional amount. In principle the two changes can balance one another. It could shift some German power from the Medieval to Renaissance. I think we can agree Bismark is very front-heavy right now, which is not bad, but it might be worthwhile to even things out a bit.
Txurce
Deity
That sounds good. I just paid for a bunch of those upgrades a little while ago, and look forward to paying less!
mitsho
Deity
I support the discount promotion as well. Don't make the Germans stronger, but delay their power a bit. Sounds about right, and the upgrade from the cheap Landsknecht to the gun-based units is not that prohibitive. Additionally, it's also better from a historical point of view, as Landsknechte are late medieval/Early Modern age.
wobuffet
Barbarian
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I think the Landsknecht change takes away too much fun from playing Germany: for me, a lot of the fun in playing Germany is looking forward to fielding hordes of half-price Pikemen. 20% off Pikemen (and 25% off upgrading them) just isn't very exciting, given that the UU is already just a Pikeman in combat.
To make things clearer, I did some math. Here are all the relevant numbers before the latest change: the Landsknecht offers
with VEM, rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Thal!)
and post-change (80
, but 25% off upgrade costs):
I suggest a more balanced, middling approach. If we made them 65, slapped on a reduced 370% gold multiplier, and beefed up the upgrade discount to 50% (if not 55%), we'd get:
I think this is more elegant. It keeps Landsknechts cheap (as is the whole point of the unit!) no matter how you obtain them, while keeping upgrade costs per unit comparable to what you'd pay to upgrade your army if you weren't Germany.
This spreads out the benefit of the UU more smoothly across time: you can quickly produce or buy a horde of Landsknechts, use them, then upgrade the surviving ones at reasonable cost when they become obsolete should you decide to continue waging war with them.
Minor objection in spoilers:
To make things clearer, I did some math. Here are all the relevant numbers before the latest change: the Landsknecht offers
50% discount in production: 50 (Landsknecht) vs 100 (Pikeman)
43% discount in buying: 210 (50*420%) vs 370 (100*370%)
214% price increase in upgrading to Musketmen: 220 vs 70
(I'm not 100% sure about this, but digging around VEM's XML files it seems costs are just (difference in hammers)*3 + a flat 10 (Landsknecht) vs 100 (Pikeman)43% discount in buying: 210
(50*420%) vs 370 (100*370%)214% price increase in upgrading to Musketmen: 220
vs 70 with VEM, rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Thal!)and post-change (80
, but 25% off upgrade costs):20% discount in production: 80 vs 100
9.5% discount in buying: 335 (80*420%) vs 370 (100*370%)
29% price increase in upgrading to Musketmen: 90 vs 70
As you can see, now Landsknechts are hardly cheaper at all when buying (or "conscripting," say) them with gold. If you play as Germany and find yourself with lots of gold but few hammers, a 9.5% discount hardly seems worth a UU! And upgrading them is significantly more expensive than for any other civ on account of the hammer cost difference. vs 1009.5% discount in buying: 335
(80*420%) vs 370 (100*370%)29% price increase in upgrading to Musketmen: 90
vs 70
I suggest a more balanced, middling approach. If we made them 65
, slapped on a reduced 370% gold multiplier, and beefed up the upgrade discount to 50% (if not 55%), we'd get:35% discount in production: 65 vs 100:c5production
35% discount in buying: 240 (65*370%) vs 370 (100*370%)
14% price increase in upgrading to Musketmen: 80 vs 70
vs 100:c5production35% discount in buying: 240
(65*370%) vs 370 (100*370%)14% price increase in upgrading to Musketmen: 80
vs 70
I think this is more elegant. It keeps Landsknechts cheap (as is the whole point of the unit!) no matter how you obtain them, while keeping upgrade costs per unit comparable to what you'd pay to upgrade your army if you weren't Germany.
This spreads out the benefit of the UU more smoothly across time: you can quickly produce or buy a horde of Landsknechts, use them, then upgrade the surviving ones at reasonable cost when they become obsolete should you decide to continue waging war with them.
Minor objection in spoilers:
Spoiler :
black213
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2010
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- 1,713
In my opinion the Landsknecht should be cheaper to upgrade to and from, but only slightly.
Txurce
Deity
I think the Landsknecht change takes away too much fun from playing Germany: for me, a lot of the fun in playing Germany is looking forward to fielding hordes of half-price Pikemen.
I suggest a more balanced, middling approach. If we made them 65
35% discount in production: 65
35% discount in buying: 240
14% price increase in upgrading: 80
I think this is more elegant. It keeps Landsknechts cheap (as is the whole point of the unit!) no matter how you obtain them, while keeping upgrade costs per unit comparable to what you'd pay to upgrade your army if you weren't Germany.
wobuffet's proposed adjustment is slightly preferable to me than black213's. The Landsknecht is a UU because it is a cheap unit. There's no reason for it to be cheap when you're upgrading out if it, any more than than there would be for a German Musket to be cheaper upgrading to Rifle.
However, it's worth remembering that wobuffet's overall point about the upside of landsknechts is mitigated by the fact that in VEM, most of your landsknechts are former brutes. The key cost with regard to landsknechts is the upgrade from brute to landsknecht. This is why this upgrade should be cheap - not only is it what the UU is all about - but also dovetails with all those free units that now require an upgrade.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Why does this have to be the case? I don't think it is right to take as given that the design of the Landsknecht cannot be changed.
It isn't an argument to say "this is the way it is now and so it can't be changed" (paraphrased).
Its fine for it to not be cheap when upgrading out of it, but it stinks that it is more expensive.
Cheaper upgrades would make Germany more interesting for me, and less front-loaded.
My preference would be for a gold cheaper upgrade promotion on the Landsknecht while reducing the initial cost advantage, so as to spread the Landsknecht benefits more (and not leave Germany with a gaping hole where they get nothing at all in medieval, renaissance or industrial eras, where Germany was historically very important). But some people seem like really like the front-loaded nature.
So I'd be fine with a design that did the following:
Landsknecht has lower hammer cost than pikeman; eg 80 vs 100. *edit* this could be less than 80, to make the cost advantage larger, I'd be fine with ~60.
Landsknecht has silver promotion that reduces its upgrade cost by 20%.
The promotion disappears once it becomes a musket.
That way, the cheap upgrade *to* the Landsknecht is preserved, but you don't face much higher overall upgrade costs from the Landsknecht -> musket promotion.
That way, the Landsknecht still gives you some long-term advantage even if you don't engage in a war using many pikemen.
Txurce
Deity
No one said this has to be the case, or that it can't be changed. It's what it has been for over a year, until this dialogue and the recent changes it wrought. Of course, nothing you proposed goes against my saying that the Landsknecht is all about being cheap. You just want to spread that cheapness around.
I would argue that Germany was pretty damn unimportant in the medieval and renaissance eras when compared to other European civs... but otherwise this is what black213 proposed. I prefer wobuffet's approach - not extending the unit's advantage, because while Germany is now made for devastating early war, that initial advantage doesn't disappear over time. A huge pike army - not to mention upgraded poachers - should give you a huge army for the rest of the game. As long as the upgrade costs to landsknecht remain meaningfully cheap, and the musket upgrade is no worse than anyone else's, I'll happily settle for that edge. (And don't really care what the precise numbers are.)
Ahriman
Tyrant
I would certainly prefer a more interesting effect, but I'm willing to work within the "cheaper unit" framework in order to be less disruptive to the game. I don't think that "the landsknecht is a cheap unit" is the same thing as "the spear->pike->musket line is cheaper for germany than for other factions".
But the musket upgrade cost *is* worse than everyone else's. It costs more to upgrade Landsknecht -> musket than it does pike -> musket.
And it costs the same to upgrade spear -> landsknecht -> musket as it does spear -> pike -> musket, so Germany has no long-term cost advantage.
This is why I proposed a compromise that get the spear/brute->landsknecht as current or at slightly more but added a change so that landsknecht -> musket cost roughly the same as pike -> musket, so that there is some longterm advantage.
Uh, really? You don't think the HRE was pretty important? I see the HRE as medieval/renaissance era german civilization (though obviously some of the emperors were Spanish).
Plus, Renaissance Germany mercenaries (with muskets) were very important, so having lots of muskets around is still very in-theme.
And I see Germany as historically relatively far more important during medieval/renaissance than it was during ancient or classical, which are where its bonuses currently are.
But as I've stated before, my real preference would be to make the barbarian-oriented civ into something like Celts or Gauls, and to have Germany as a more HRE->Prussia->Germany civ with different bonuses.
*edit*
I think part of the problem is that the Landsknecht is really a late-medieval unit, early Renaissance even, but we have a problem with the game in that pikemen are available so early and there is no distinction between say 11th century pikes and 16th century pikes.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
9.5% discount in buying: 335
The purchase cost modifier depends on the base cost, calculated by global variables which are independent of particular units or buildings. More expensive items have a lower purchase modifier. This means an increase in base cost from 50
to 80 reduces the purchase modifier from 420% to the ~390% range.The approach I took is:
These are ingame numbers with the Honor cost modifier included. "Upgrade From" is the cost to upgrade Brutes to Landsknecht, and "Upgrade To" is Landsknecht to Musketmen. The upgrade numbers are higher if you do not invest in Honor with Germany. Remember that Civ multipliers are additive: negative modifiers become more powerful when stacked, and positive modifiers weaken. This makes the upgrade cost reduction better when combined with Professional Army.
Attachments
Txurce
Deity
Yep. This is why I agreed with some version of both the proposals that preceded yours.
.
And I see them as Habsburgs. Not "Germany." You're free to see it differently.
No one is arguing this.
Agreed. But if you want to change that, I suggest you focus on the UA, not the landsknecht.
That would be my preference as well, if it were possible to have a Celt or Gaul civ.
wobuffet
Barbarian
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Great point; I didn't realize that. If the Landsknechts are priced at 65
or so like I'm arguing for, this is automatic.Agreed. It should just be significantly cheaper all-around: to produce, to buy outright, to upgrade to, and to upgrade from.
Awesome, thanks for the numbers. (Although your "from" and "to" should be reversed, I think, haha.The purchase cost modifier depends on the base cost, calculated by global variables which are independent of particular units or buildings. More expensive items have a lower purchase modifier. This means an increase in base cost from 50
The approach I took is:
These are ingame numbers with the Honor cost modifier included. "Upgrade From" is the cost to upgrade Brutes to Landsknecht, and "Upgrade To" is Landsknecht to Musketmen. The upgrade numbers are higher if you do not invest in Honor with Germany. Remember that Civ multipliers are additive: negative modifiers become more powerful when stacked, and positive modifiers weaken. This makes the upgrade cost reduction better when combined with Professional Army.
) It'd be rare to not grab Professional Army as Germany, so I can see your reasoning for taking those into account.Anyway, I think a 16–20% discount in buying/producing the units doesn't seem large enough in magnitude to warrant a UU. Personally, I'd prefer keeping more of the original (50%) production discount intact.
What would you think of something like 65
(65%), 200 if buying (65%), 105 (64%) to upgrade from Brutes [assuming Professional Army], and 55 (65%) to upgrade to Musketmen? Then you'd feel some discount every time you dealt with them. After all, just look at the percentages in the in v117 row: we essentially had the four percentages at 50%, 57%, 39%, and N/A respectively (where the N/A is assuming you used the Landsknechts as disposable cannon fodder – essentially cheap, offensively capable Levy alternatives – rather than promoting, protecting, and upgrading them). The v119 row clearly represents a less valuable UU: the first three discounts are each slashed by 60%+ (!).
I've probably written too much already, but in sum, I think changing the v117 discounts of (50% 43%, 61%, -118%) to something like (35%, 35%, 36%, 35%) would be more elegant and balanced than the v119 (20%, 16%, 24%, and 29%), assuming the point wasn't to simply nerf the Landsknecht.
Clearly using them as half-price disposable soldiers as I did wouldn't exactly work anymore, but the spread-out benefit of the UU would seem about the same as before, although it's impossible to say so definitively without testing, of course.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Oh yes you're right, somehow I was thinking from the perspective of other units, not the pike/landsknecht. Bizarre frame of reference! 
I do want to avoid buffing Germany. The intent here is to redistribute the bonuses, and the last number has a significant drop from 218% to 71%. If these values do end up reducing Germany's power, I'm okay with that, because there's been feedback elsewhere that Germany is a little too powerful.
I do want to avoid buffing Germany. The intent here is to redistribute the bonuses, and the last number has a significant drop from 218% to 71%. If these values do end up reducing Germany's power, I'm okay with that, because there's been feedback elsewhere that Germany is a little too powerful.
wobuffet
Barbarian
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Ah, okay. I still think it's a bit of a large nerf and would prefer something like a flat 75% across the board (i.e., 25% off all four transactions involving the UU), since the 218% isn't awfully relevant* assuming you notice the outrageous upgrade costs and thus avoid doing so – and especially with the new converted Barbarian maintenance increase/nerf.
That being said, if I'm the only one who thinks the changes are a bit extreme, so be it.
Txurce
Deity
Ah, okay. I still think it's a bit of a large nerf and would prefer something like a flat 75% across the board (i.e., 25% off all four transactions involving the UU), since the 218% isn't awfully relevant* assuming you notice the outrageous upgrade costs and thus avoid doing so and especially with the new converted Barbarian maintenance increase/nerf.
That being said, if I'm the only one who thinks the changes are a bit extreme, so be it, I suppose.
You could be right, I don't think any of us really know yet, and like you I will test it to see how it feels.
Txurce
Deity
Are Rifles a prerequisite for Infantry now? I just researched Replaceable Parts, but can't build them.
mitsho
Deity
I think they've always been as that has happened to me once as well. It is a bad design choice indeed (that you cannot upgrade muskets to infantry without knowing rifles), but I am gonna bet that "it is in the game core" will be the answer you get from Thal 
