Art Theft should be more difficult and counter-spies should be more useful

[CppMaster]

I'm pretty sure that your counter spy has to be the same level as the enemy spy to have a decent chance at capturing the spy. So its tricky sometimes, because a lvl 1 spy in the capital just won't do anything.

Does AI only use 2 and 3 lvl spies on capitals?

 

[glaivemaster]

Counterspies absolutely need to be worth more, or perhaps worth anything at all.

If a level 3 spy in a city with a Constabulary and Police Station with a built NI Agency, can't stop an enemy spy, then what is the point of even having counterspies in the game?

 

[vyyt]

Counterspies absolutely need to be worth more, or perhaps worth anything at all.

If a level 3 spy in a city with a Constabulary and Police Station with a built NI Agency, can't stop an enemy spy, then what is the point of even having counterspies in the game?

Just to clarify, I think buildings do not STOP enemy spies, they only slow them down.

Edit: ... says the guy who is turning espionage off. Sorry if it was changed, but this is how it worked before.

 

[Vhozite]

No they definitely still slow down theft, in addition to preventing certain advanced actions depending on the building.

The funny thing is slowing down theft means it actually takes longer for your counterspy to do anything, at least until it becomes possible to die during advanced actions.

 

[JamesNinelives]

in addition to preventing certain advanced actions depending on the building.

Yep. I do like this aspect. I actually kill a lot more spies from Computing and Electronics onwards because that's when Police Stations, the National Intelligence Agency and Bletchley Park are available.

Kinda funny though that with all the right buildings (including the Mandir) your city can prevent science theft, gold theft, production sabotage, and great person assassination but there's no way to ensure the Odyssey or the Iliad are kept safe if they leave the capital.

 

[cammcken]

Just gonna add my observations to the heap:

I have had no success trying to steal from AI

However, when the AI try to steal from me, my counterspies aren't very successful.

I feel like this creates a very skewed set of options. Do you want your great works to be safe? Stick them in capital. Done, never have to worry about them. But there are so many factors influencing how you deploy great works. Do you assign them to counteract boredom, or where you want to push your borders? If you have scientific policies, do you assign them for the +3% science buffs? Do you assign them where they can get the most theming bonuses, or in cities that have culture and tourism multipliers? If you want to play with any of that, you have to accept losing half a dozen to spies. There's no in-between.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I feel like this creates a very skewed set of options. Do you want your great works to be safe? Stick them in capital. Done, never have to worry about them. But there are so many factors influencing how you deploy great works. Do you assign them to counteract boredom, or where you want to push your borders? If you have scientific policies, do you assign them for the +3% science buffs? Do you assign them where they can get the most theming bonuses, or in cities that have culture and tourism multipliers? If you want to play with any of that, you have to accept losing half a dozen to spies. There's no in-between.

I agree, well said. I mostly look at theming bonuses but you're right it's fun to try to play with different options but it doesn't really feel like the game encourages that.

 

[Imraan]

If it's possible, I think a temporary loss of the Great Work for 10-ish turns (Standard) would be a good way to keep the mechanic of stealing Great Works in the game but not punish the player and AIs for using them.

 

[Stalker0]

If it's possible, I think a temporary loss of the Great Work for 10-ish turns (Standard) would be a good way to keep the mechanic of stealing Great Works in the game but not punish the player and AIs for using them.

For such a short duration, stealing would be worthless.

I mean personally I wouldn't mind if the thief mechanic died in a fire, I don't think it really brings anything to the table. If it was gone I wouldn't miss it.

 

[Voremonger]

I agree that the current state of Spies as Thieves is not good: guarding GWs is much less effective than just stealing them yourself.
I think the inability to steal GWs from Capitals feels very artificial and unimmersive and it leads to weird optimal strategies: putting all of your own GWs in the Capital and tracking which foreign Cities did not contain GWs at which turn.
The AI is currently not doing well when it comes to stealing GWs.

I think a good solution would be to assign all Spies/Thieves to entire empires instead of just individual Cities (but I assume that would require a lot of work to implement).

I personally would also be fine with just disabling Thieves altogether; I think there are already enough options for Spies.
A config option to disable Thieves and maybe a way to toggle this option with a GUI would be much appreciated.

On an unrelated note: how do you steal a story or a song?

 

[Tekamthi]

managing spies in civ 5 (both vanilla and VP) is a necessary chore, imo, and not fun. There is no real "gameplay" to it; the only player choice is deciding where they go on a rather arbitrary basis, and hoping for favorable RNG. civ 5 espionage is as enjoyable as playing an excel spreadsheet.

VP would be well-served by overhauling this aspect to make it more cat-and-mouse or spy-v-spy in nature. That said, even theorycrafting a better system seems elusive, and implementing any material improvements likely more trouble than its worth. I've tried all the spy mods that I can find, including those that seek to return spies to their civ 2 glory; some have potential, maybe, but overall these effects fall short of their aim, or are just underwhelming in the civ 5 context.

I don't think improving the "defense" of spies will markedly improve the status quo, nor will making the thefts only a temporary penalty -- these will just shift the complaints towards the ineffectiveness of offensive spies. I would prefer not to remove anything from the espionage system though (ie removing GW theft), as this will only flatten an already-flat system. Somehow this part of the game needs to become more interactive and player-driven than the blackbox RNG it currently is.