ashen viel

[QES]

The runes are neutral or good because you can be either alignment and have them as a state religion. If you are evil and adopt the Runes you become neutral.

The Overlords are the same in the other way, you can be Neutral or Evil and follow them. If you are good and adopt the Overlords you become neutral.

And alignment can be the followship.

edit: Drat, Grillick beat me.

Ah, well thanks to the both of you, where once i was blind, now i can see.

Still, ashen vale needs a boost and be a viable option for a sole religion .
-Qes

 

[SchpailsMan]

"Neutral good" means that if you're evil and convert to Runes, you'll become neutral. The same way, the OO is "neutral evil" because it will make you neutral if you were originally good but won't change your alignment if you were neutral or evil. The opposite way, the Order and the Veil force your alignement to good/evil as soon as you convert regardless of your former aligment. Leaves, finally, won't change your alignment in any way when you convert to it.

edit: oops, that's what you I get for typing a message, working for a few minutes, and only then posting it

 

[daladinn]

so , whats your oppinions on the cultists then? i have won many a game with them alone.

 

[SchpailsMan]

I'm thinking this: Ashen Vale Provides normal benefits if you've the ashen vale as a state religion. If you do not, the cities with ashen vale recieve - 2 happy AND - 10% production. Pretty nasty no? Ashen vale temples do normal things for ashen vale civs, but for non-state religion peoples, it provides +2 happy, +10% Production (to reduce previous effects) BUT it also adds a promotion to all units built in that city. "Vale" Vale gives -30% str against a civ with ashen vale as a state religion, AND -70% strength against Vale Disciple units.

The idea is sound, but isn't that a little too close to the Cult of the Dragon ?

 

[QES]

The idea is sound, but isn't that a little too close to the Cult of the Dragon ?

I see cult of the dragon more as a sickness. Really you CAN ignore it if you want. Its very minor. THe ashen vale is FAR more active, as usually a civ has the option of chosing it as its state relgion. THe cult is more of an anti-religion. An annoyance, and a sickness.

The vale should cause a dynamic shift in game play, as it starts to expand. It threatens directly the stability and fabric of civilizations who dont endorse it. One cannot endorse the cult, but you CAN convert to Ashen vale. In this, it resembles the Orders opposite. Expansion and conversion through corruption, as opposed to expansion and conversion through force alone. WHere the cult is a sickness to be cured, the Ashenvale is a sinister force that is going to cure YOU.
-Qes

EDIT: ALSO! Since the ways to cure the production/happyness problem involve building a temple to do so - it winds up spreading the religion. (Make a copy of the tape and show it to someone so the tape doesnt kill you sort of thing). With the military bonuses, it still becomes essential that somewhere in the world is an Ashen Vale civilization to take advantage of those bonuses. Ashen Vale is active, where as the Cult is passive.

 

[SchpailsMan]

Don't misunderstand me, I agree with the principle. It would be fun that running the Veil somehow gave some sort of maluses to your rivals rather than just buff your own kingdom (besides, most of the time you'll have more rivals than kingdoms, so the net effect should be higher ). I just wanted to point out that the actual mechanics you suggested were maybe a little too similar to how the CotD currently works.

There might be something cool that could be done some other way. For example, I'm thinking about the zerg's Creep, like if the AV lands became scorched and rotten to other civs. The AV Creep would spawn inside their borders, and could even "overflow" a few tiles ahead, polluting the surrounding land and driving people crazy. The AV would not necessarily be totally immune to the polluting effect, but would at least get some benefit from it (although probably not an economical one, I think the zerg regen quicker on creep if that helps). Creep could also appear in the city radius of any city that has the AV in it, but I'm afraid that could upset other players.

I'm not sure the whole creep idea is good (I think it may have already been suggested... and obviously, it's still not in the game), I just mean something else that propagating a cult-like promotion.

 

[vorshlumpf]

I'm still in the middle of my first Ashen Veil game (where I didn't get wiped out). I'm liking the religion quite a bit, though playing as the Sheaim may have something to do with it.

Some have mentioned that a high research rate is not so great an advantage. However, with my Holy City (w/ Holy Shrine) I managed to build the Crown wonder that adds 100% to research. Mixed with other such buildings (including an Asylum which I built before converting to the Veil), I can put my research down to 0%, make tonnes of money, and still have a good research rate. This allows me to rush-build buildings in all of those cities I'm conquering and take shortcuts for building units if needed (e.g., build a warrior and upgrade to a Maceman).

My main complaint, and this applies to the Order as well, is that this religion doesn't seem to reach higher than single digit percent (<10%) in any game that I don't found it. Yet it is so easy to spread . . . I guess that's an AI issue, though.

- Niilo

 

[dreiche2]

about the alignments, flavourwise, wouldn't it make more sense to switch the roles of the runes and the leaves?

Basically, if runes is somehow about exploiting the earth (digging huge holes into the hills, cutting down forests, etc.), I think any alignment would fit to that...

And about leaves, I don't mind them being neutral, but now they are rather 'indifferent' than neutral. If leaves is somehow about balance and harmony with nature, doesn't that conflict with civs that leave a trail of scorched land behind them or actually want to destroy the world with armageddon spells? Don't get me wrong, of course the possibility of having orcs follow the order etc. is a part of FfH, but in such a case they do change alignment.

Instead, some balancing force could probably be both good and neutral (actually similar to that there are good and neutral elven leaders).

what do you think?

 

[Maniac]

For the record, to me the Runes of Kilmorph sound more neutral than Fellowship of Leaves. Isn't after all Kilmorph a neutral angel while Sucellus, former Nature angel, belongs to the good guys?

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I really wouldn't mind the Runes being neutral and the Leaves being neutral-good. In fact, I might advocate it.

I think that, yes, the Veil should be made stronger, but both it and the Order need to be founded earlier. The Leaves, Runes, and OO all get founded in the first hundred turns (at normal speed), while the Order and Veil have to wait another hundred turns or more! Cutting the costs of Way of the Wise and Way of the Wicked is a step in the right direction, but I think it might be better to cut them entirely. If not that, then perhaps make it so that the religions can be founded without them, but it's those techs that allow Valin/Rosier, the temples, and maybe they will lead to the unique religion techs instead of the founding techs.

 

[QES]

I really wouldn't mind the Runes being neutral and the Leaves being neutral-good. In fact, I might advocate it.

I think that, yes, the Veil should be made stronger, but both it and the Order need to be founded earlier. The Leaves, Runes, and OO all get founded in the first hundred turns (at normal speed), while the Order and Veil have to wait another hundred turns or more! Cutting the costs of Way of the Wise and Way of the Wicked is a step in the right direction, but I think it might be better to cut them entirely. If not that, then perhaps make it so that the religions can be founded without them, but it's those techs that allow Valin/Rosier, the temples, and maybe they will lead to the unique religion techs instead of the founding techs.

OO seems to be in the sweet spot for power/timing issues. Ashen Veil and Order strike me as GOOD "last" religions. But they need to have power compensation FOR that wait. If i want to be order or veil, and want to IGNORE the other relgions, it's VERY hard to do so and have a stable empire.

Therefore, if i do trudge through to veil and order, there should be some sort of reward waiting for me. Having the Veil be some sort of plauge upon other civs seems fun, and the only way to stop being affected by the bad effects is to BE an ashen vale civ. The Order can just have a lot of maintenance and military options to make it nice.

On the Note of the "Way" techs. Why not have simply one tech that leads to both? Way of Passion. Its a tech that leads to both Order and Veil. Then if someone else grabs veil first, another player can grab order, and you immediately have a VERY interesting dynamic set up.

On the Veil again:

I dont like the idea of "CreeP' effects (though it sounds cool) because, it would strike me as emulating the effects of leaves-ancient forest. Granted, the "creep" terrain would be a bad terrain, and the only way to benefit from it would be if you were an ashen vale civ - cool, but not origional.
IF the ashen vale represented more the corruption of peoples souls, and habits, instead of terrain, i think the ends of our hopes could be reached.

Could the presence of the Veil create discontent in a city? As well as scheminc, ploting, and other forms of corruption? Increased unhappy people is one way, increased maintenance is another, so is the prospects of betrayal. I think it'd be great if cities with temples of the Veil whom are NOT ashen vale civs, would risk losing their units to corruption and betrayal. The Dragon Cult effects notwithstanding, I'm implying something different. Where as dragon built units might TURN to the other side, I'm suggesting that instead the Vale corrupts the abilitys of teh unit to fight properly. So that a Unit may die against its master (the Vale civ). Master - Apprentice Dark side themology. Mostly Id like the Vale to be about avoiding badness (and benefiting as you watch all the non-believers suffer).

-Qes

 

[Kael]

For the record, to me the Runes of Kilmorph sound more neutral than Fellowship of Leaves. Isn't after all Kilmorph a neutral angel while Sucellus, former Nature angel, belongs to the good guys?

Kilmorph is neutral (as is the water god Danalin, though he is under duress) but has no problem with good followers.

The Fellowship doesn't worship Sucellus, they worship Cernunnos. Sucellus used to be the god of Nature and was the creator of the elves. But when he died at the end of the Age of Magic one of his subordinates, Cernunnos, tried to help keep nature and the elves alive through the Age of Ice. Cernunnos was a solar (an angel at the same power level as Cassiel, Basium and Sabathiel) though there wasn't much he could do.

When Sucellus was reborn he became the god of Life. Previously the impassive Arawn was the god of life and death and things like ressurection weren't possible because Arawn didn't have any interaction with mankind (he still doesn't). But he allowed Sucellus to take over the providence of Life, bringing an entirely new divine sphere to the world and some way to aid the good gods, who had lost Bhall.

As Sucellus was now the god of Life, he transfered the providence of nature to Cernunnos, making him the only one of the gods that got promoted into his position.

Meanwhile other solars have lost their power (Basium, Cassiel) for disobedience to their lords. Sabathiel still has all of his power but is running under restrictions so tight that he isn't even allowed to appear to his people. Instead only the three highest priests can enter the chamber he dwells in and speak to him (in time Sabathiel abandons the Bannor for their own disobedience and the priests continue the charade, acting like they go to speak to him and bringing his "messages" out as holy laws).

Evil solars exist as well including Hastur (under Mammon), who is the head of the demons that are whispering into the sleeping Danalin's ear which caused the overlords religion. Meshabber is an evil Solar in the service of Agares. And I suppose (though I hadnt thought about it) the Avatar of Wrath would probably be one under Aeron.

 

[Grey Fox]

I remeber in a MP game, I used 3 Great Prophets to get to veil.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Sorry to post off-topic like this, but I'm never going to get this out of my head if I don't.

Seems like everyone has a different way of spelling "Ashen Veil." If we're going to have Nightmares and such as resources in Hell, can we also have "Ashen Veal?" I mean, evil baby cows, what's not to like?

 

[QES]

Sorry to post off-topic like this, but I'm never going to get this out of my head if I don't.

Seems like everyone has a different way of spelling "Ashen Veil." If we're going to have Nightmares and such as resources in Hell, can we also have "Ashen Veal?" I mean, evil baby cows, what's not to like?

We've already got Evil animals in game - Sheepzor.
-Qes

 

[Quetz]

I agree that Ashen Vale seems awfully weak to me. The difference in strength between Leaves/Elvies and Sheiam/Vale is pretty crazy, if you try to play it. I do agree with all those that say Elves need toned down a bit (believe me, I'm no expert, and I just crushed the entire world at once on Immortal, the highest difficulty I've ever tried, and had the easiest Civ game I've ever played..)

I just dont get Diseased Corpses. They are expensive, come late, and have -30% strength, unless I am mistaken. They are corpses, why are they affected by their disease? Shouldnt they be like, spreading it or something?

It would be neat if units in a non-Sheiam/Cabalim/whoever city that had Ashes, without it being state religion, had a chance to start with disease, due to the nassssty Ash priests spreading it around.. or something..

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I prefer Leaves neutral, as it kind of goes against expectations, but not against reality. Neutral really *is* indifferent, or else too cowardly to take a side.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Well that does fit pretty well with the Runes methodology. "I don't care if the world is crashing down around me ears, as long as I have me gold. Stay away from me gold!" You could say that the Leaves are similar with their forests, but... well, it just seems a bit counterintuitive. That, along with the fact that both dwarven leaders are neutral, while the elves have neutral and good.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Technically, there are 2 good dwarves, 2 neutral dwarves, and 2 neutral, 1 good, and 1 evil elf.
Leaders, anyway.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Heh, well said, Knight. However, the Luichirp aren't necessarily a "Runes" type of Civ (they seem more concerned with mechanics than religion), and the Svartalfar might not turn out to be inclined toward tree-huggery by the time they get fleshed out.