Ask a Hindu/Ask an Indian

Ah well eh, no one is going to be replacing the good ol' US of A as the world's foremost power in all spheres of human endeavour. And that's not even being racist because they're a melting pot they are!
 
Please ignore answers Aneeshm has given about or concerning Islam. He doesn't know much about Muslim society, nor about Islam, nor about its History. He is an Indian, and a Hindu-nationalist-zealot on top of that
 
Caste is a very complex topic. I have spent many hours cogitating over it, and still not come to any concrete conclusion. The only thing that can be said about it is that sometime back in the very far past, a system of a division of labour and organisation of society started to stratify and become hereditary, resulting in caste as we know it.
The advent of Buddhism further complicated things, by precipitating the concept of "untouchability" and ritual impurity. So did the concept of the sacredness of the cow.
The Muslim invasion added another twist, by leading to a general warping of society as a response to it. The evils of child marriage, sati, and a general stratification of society became prominent during this period.
The British added yet another variable into the already strained equation, by leading to lopsided development of different caste groups, and by their attempt to catalogue and manage caste.

So basically it's everyone's fault (Budda, the Muslims, The Brits) but Hinduism :lol:

It's impossible to "opt out" unless society in general becomes insensitive to it. For instance, I am one of the least caste-conscious people I know, and consider it bad taste and rude to ask someone their caste, and I don't care for caste as it is, but I still have to answer people when they ask me what caste I am.
Among the urban educated affluent elite, caste is a non-issue. Among others, it remains a sad reality, though discrimination on its basis has reduced to almost nothing in areas where the free market's effects have been felt the most.

Sure there is a way out. Low casts should just convert to another religion, or even better throw Hinduism and all other religion in the trash can ;)
 
A number of people who were formerly considered untouchables have very cynically co-opted Buddhism as a political tool. They blame Hinduism for their ills (not recognising that there does not exist any one dogma such as Hinduism, on which a premise of religious oppression can be based), and see this as a way of getting some sort of perverse "revenge". Some of the vows these people take as part of their "initiation" or "conversion" include negatives such as:
....
The entire thing is a propaganda and mass-hysterical exercise created by Ambedkar to ensure that the "converts" discard their old ways and do not go back to their natural modes of worship.

Well coming from a member of the brahmin cast that is simply outrageous. Sure they sould have accepted the great system they were in , a system where they were regarded as less than dogs ...
 
I'm sure aneeshm acknowledges that his view of Islam itself is shaped by some things:

a) The Indian view
b) The English-language media of Islam
c) His peers, themselves no insiders
d) The extremely limited interaction you have with a very small segment of real muslims he comes into contact with

I'm sure he is also handicapped by not being well-read in any Islam guage.... actually I think he is pretty decently read up in the Koran, so maybe that one doesn't apply.

:p
 
aneeshm said:
The advent of Buddhism further complicated things, by precipitating the concept of "untouchability" and ritual impurity. So did the concept of the sacredness of the cow.

That's not true. The sacredness of the cow was inherited by Buddhism from Hinduism. As for untouchables and ritual impurity, the Buddha is strongly against that. Actually one of the central core of Buddhism and what makes it popular is the notion that a person's status in society do not depend on birth or caste.
 
When the crap are you going to make that thread where you prove your crazy hindu spirit world exists? You said it's trivially easy after all, so it isn't as if it would place a big ol' burden on you!

I've already told you, you're free to make it if you want.

And by the way, NO "crazy spirit world" exists. ;)

Oh and why do you want India alone to be the world's foremost power in all spheres of human endevour?

Good old patriotism.

Are you racist?

No. ;)
 
Please ignore answers Aneeshm has given about or concerning Islam.

If you consider me so deluded, why not simply put me on your ignore list instead of trying to derail my thread? My criticism of silver was because he is considered an authority by some because he happens to be ethnically Indian.

Is this the politeness your Islamic upbringing has given you? ;)

He doesn't know much about Muslim society,

Untrue.

nor about Islam, nor about its History.

Absolutely untrue.

He is an Indian,

Around 13% of Indians are Muslims. ;)

and a Hindu-nationalist-zealot on top of that.

You seem very fond of making this claim. Can you substantiate it? Or will you ignore this, and keep making ultimately non-constructive and useless remarks, as you have in the past?
 
So basically it's everyone's fault (Budda, the Muslims, The Brits) but Hinduism :lol:

Not really, no. I never blamed anyone as such, I simply said that it is a very complicated issue, and tried to point out the factors that complicated it throughout history. You can't pinpoint blame on people, unless they were directly responsible for the ideas that caused the problems. You don't have the maturity to understand that, that's why you take such a naive view of what I've just said.

In fact, it seems you lack not just maturity in evaluating others' statements, but also reading comprehension, because I had clearly mentioned that the system's foundation was laid before any of the complicating factors came into the picture.

Sure there is a way out.Low casts should just convert to another religion, or even better throw Hinduism and all other religion in the trash can ;)

Statements of this nature are why I consider you immature and naive when it comes to understanding complex problems. First of all, you apply the western definition of religion to Hinduism, which doesn't really fit. Secondly, you think that conversion is the answer, whereas in fact studies done on converts have conclusively proven that conversion did not, in fact, improve anything.

The most simple and obvious solution to a problem, a solution which stares you in the face, and makes you wonder why nobody else ever tried it, is usually wrong, because others aren't as dumb as you make them out to be, and they usually have tried it, multiple times, and it has failed.
 
Well coming from a member of the brahmin cast that is simply outrageous.

My being of caste X is completely irrelevant to the truth value of my statements. Again, you show your complete lack of logical thinking ability by making such a statement, which is a blatant attack ad homimen.

Sure they sould have accepted the great system they were in , a system where they were regarded as less than dogs

I have a sense of empathy, so I can understand their conversion, but I also have the ability to think and to see the world as it is, so I cannot condone their conversion.

As for the system - it was, as I have tried to point out, a result of many factors. To simplify it to the point of absurdity is, well, absurd. But given the nature of your posts in this thread, I doubt you are here to seriously understand or discuss.
 
I'm sure aneeshm acknowledges that his view of Islam itself is shaped by some things:

a) The Indian view

Quite correct.

The prevalent Indian view is that Islam is the religion of peace, and anyone who denies that is a "fascist bigot communalist #$%^". People to not dare to criticise Islam in public. So yes, my view of Islam is quite affected by the reign of intellectual terror they have managed to unleash on institutions and the media.

b) The English-language media of Islam

Again, quite correct. Whatever the Muslims put out in English, I have to use that as my source. If anything, that is more likely to make me think Islam is more liberal than it actually is, given that people knowing English are correlated with people who know other Western concepts, including freedom of speech.

c) His peers, themselves no insiders

On the contrary. There are two or three Muslims among my batchmates at my college, but they're completely unobservant, so it's difficult to judge the majority of Muslims on that basis, because the majority doesn't venture out of their self-imposed ghettoes.

d) The extremely limited interaction you have with a very small segment of real muslims he comes into contact with

Partially true.

I'm sure he is also handicapped by not being well-read in any Islam guage.... actually I think he is pretty decently read up in the Koran, so maybe that one doesn't apply.

Quite right. Doesn't apply at all.


:p

;)
 
That's not true. The sacredness of the cow was inherited by Buddhism from Hinduism.

Not really. The principle of the sacredness of the cow, and of Buddhist non-violence, were developed in roughly the same timeframe, and affected each other considerably. For instance, in the older texts, which were being written at roughly the time of Buddhism's ascent, you can find instances where the cow (or rather, the bovine species) was not, in fact, sacred, such as the BrihadAranyaka Upanishad (it mentions that the meat of a bull should be cooked with rice and eaten by someone who desires to have a son who will go on to be learned).

The Charaka Samhita (or Sushruta Samhita, I forget which) says that the fat of the cow may be used in medicines which were to be consumed. It also says that a broth or soup may be made of cow meat.

These were, to an extent, contemporary with Buddhism.





The idea of the ritual impurity of a person indulging in violence was a later innovation, partially spurred on by Buddhist ideals of non-violence, and it is quite probable it was responsible for the precipitation of the untouchables into a separate category.

As for untouchables and ritual impurity, the Buddha is strongly against that.

The Buddha was at his core a philosopher, and he did not comment on issues of society at all. He preached individual compassion, not institutional change.

Actually one of the central core of Buddhism and what makes it popular is the notion that a person's status in society do not depend on birth or caste.

That's a bit off.

The Buddha said that anyone could join his order of monks (the Sangha), irrespective of any differences of birth. This was not an innovation. The Hindu Sannyasi order is also open to all, irrespective of birth.

The Buddha was never a social commentator at all. He did not preach how society should be. He simply preached a few general moral and spiritual and philosophical principles for laymen. A renunciation or repudiation of caste was not among them.

This is a very common misconception about the Buddha, that he sought to improve society. In fact, he was quite unequivocal about the futility of worldly pursuits, and did not waste time on social reform, preferring instead to create an order of monks who would attempt to become enlightened, and show others the way.
 
I'll reproduce here the excellent article by Saurav Basu, written in response to an old article by Ambedkar.

The Beefy Riddles of Ambedkar

B R Ambedkar made a valiant attempt to prove that Brahmins invented deification of cow to usurp the goodwill generated by the Buddhists amongst the masses. Ambedkar’s hypothesis is principally that indo-aryans ate beef as is evident from several rig-veda passages. The Brahmins were especially voracious beef eaters, but when buddha’s denunciation of animal sacrifices cost them to lose their self esteem amongst the masses, they adopted vegetarianism. To go one step further ahead of Buddhism, the deification of cow followed suit.

Ambedkar considers economic theories to be the reason why only milch cows were spared in the Vedas. But in the post vedic age, it was not economic theories but conspiracy theories [against Buddhism] which led to cow deification amongst Hindus. But those who persisted with eating beef, became the untouchables.

Ambedkar initially declares meat eating to be taboo within Hindus. It is a rather bold statement as only Vaishnavs, consider it so. Amongst Bengali Brahmins, meat eating is commonplace. Those involved in rajasic activities are always expected to partake meat. Except at certain religious occasions or certain yogic exercises. Patanjali advocates abstinence from meat while practicing raja yoga. [Ref: Patanjali yoga sutras] Hence, while no hindu scripture advocates meat eating, and while usually promoting the spirit of vegetarianism; only those involved in spiritual pursuits are strongly advised abstaining from meat and eating only sattwic food. Thus, Hinduism advocates vegetarianism for humanitarian reasons, but for those involved in a spiritual path, the reason is that rajasic foods, (which arouse passion) are incompatible with yoga.

Ambedkar attempts to discover the roots of untouchability through cow deification. Quoting an obscure Vyasa Smriti, which mentions the castes which subsist on beef, Ambedkar puts forward the hypothesis that broken men became Buddhists while retaining beef eating habits which rendered them helpless to the tyranny of the brahmanical religion. Unfortunately for Ambedkar; the great Buddha never spoke of emancipation of the so called broken men. Neither did any mass conversion amongst the shudras follow to escape from the ineluctable grasp of the brahmanical religion. As recent research shows that most Buddhist scriptures were actually written by converted brahmanas and few ksatriyas. This period also saw the rise of several ksatriya clans. [Kumkum Roy in her speech in a seminar ‘Casteism through history -> JMC Delhi, Sep’21-22 2006] Buddha in the dhammpada in the Brahman vagga, describes the ideal brahmana in more than 20 verses. Hence, it is unlikely that he poured vituperations against the brahmanas, either as a caste or as personalities.

Ambedkar then initiates his task of proving that indo Aryans ate beef.
However, there are later vedic verses which speak of cow as Agyna or that which is not to be killed. Ambedkar declares that it is a misinterpretation as Agyna is only supposed to be a milch cow. Milch cows were not to be killed. To support his hypothesis, he quotes Rig Veda 10.91.14 which declares among a host of animals, barren cows to be eligible for sacrifice to Agni. Hence, the evidence does seem to be heavily laden in favour of thfact that cows were indispensable for their milk but expendable sacrifice material, definitely not deification material.

However, there are two vedic verses 8.102.15/16 which declare the cow to be the cosmic forces and the giver of speech. Clearly, these verses have an esoteric significance. Sri Aurobindo says the cow is the giver of the divine light. ‘Go’ in Sanskrit connotes both cow and light. However, since historians are allergic to esoteric explanations; the only utility of these verses is to suggest elements of cow deification within the vedic religion bereft of any economic milk related utility.

Ambedkar ignores the fact, that Vedas are not the composition of a single author [the word Sruti as such is heard]. Hence, differences in opinion with regard to beef eating could have actually existed. Hence, Vedic injunctions with respect to beef eating can be self contradictory depending upon the proclivity of the verse composer. Ultimately, there is only verse which sanctions the sacrifice of barren cows. There is not a single vedic verse which directly condones beef eating! But absence of evidence cannot be taken as evidence of absence. Hence, it must be accepted that indo Aryans did use to eat beef but what is not certain is how ubiquitous it was!

Ambedkar then highlights the fact that Ashoka did not ban cow slaughter. But what if it had stopped prior to Ashoka’s reign….Ambedkar believes it to be an absurd notion…..i fail to understand what is so absurd about it….Apasthamba dharma shastras explicitly forbid beef eating and the historical consensus is that he predated Ashoka!

Ambedkar characteristically resorts to a tirade against animal sacrifice and Brahmins to greedily eat up the calves…But even if the goal of animal sacrifice was consuming delicious beef stew, how did it really matter? Ambedkar sheds copious tears on the plight of those poor animals, yet he condones beef eating for other religions…….he further claims Buddha had no reservations to anyone eating cow……that might be true, but then, he renders great Buddha susceptible to the charge of abetting the crime of eating poor calves. And yet, previously he claimed that the Vedas allowed only non milking cows to be killed. If only non-milch cows were to be eaten, then everyday certainly cannot be a brahmana ‘beef steak’ day, as Ambedkar would like to put it. The argument is hence null and void. He has the temerity to declare the brahmanas as butchers. This shows, that psychologically Ambedkar denigrated the occupation of butchers; the shudras indeed seem to be worshipping a false god.

Ambedkar’s entire thesis relies on the stand that Brahmins assimilated vegetarianism for political reasons. But Yajur Veda Samhita 12.32 proves that the seeds of vegetarianism had been sowed much earlier. Rig Veda 10.87.16 also hints at partaking of meat was not desirable. Ambedkar goes on to claim “That the object of the Brahmins in giving up beef-eating was to snatch away from the Buddhist Bhikshus the supremacy they had acquired is evidenced by the adoption of vegetarianism by Brahmins” That the Manu Smriti has several verses advising vegetarianism [V.46-49 V. 48. Meat can never be obtained without injury to living creatures, and injury to sentient beings is detrimental to (the attainment of) heavenly bliss; let him therefore shun (the use of) meat.are to Ambedkar later interpolations.

To quote Ambedkar again

“If these verses can be treated as containing positive injunctions they would be sufficient to explain why the Brahmins gave up meat-eating and became vegetarians. But it is impossible to treat these verses as positive injunctions, carrying the force of law. They are either exhortations or interpolations introduced after the Brahmins had become vegetarians in praise of the change”

But as verse 56 declares “There is no sin in eating meat, in (drinking) spirituous liquor, and in carnal intercourse, for that is the natural way of created beings, but abstention brings great rewards”

Clearly; this verse allows for moral relativism. The ultimate decision to be vegetarian or not is left on the individual. Interpolated verses edict, they rarely recommend, but they never allow space for moral relativism because interpolation must serve a purpose and non authoritative verses serve no legal/utilitarian purposes. For instance, interpolated verses of the Manu Smriti curtailed the rights of the women and shudras in late ages. Clearly, there was a definite purpose behind the exercise, unlike here.


Ambedkar further contends that Manu Smriti does not debar beef eating. That is very true, and by using this logic he digs his own grave. If pleas for meat renunciation in the Manu Smriti are later fabrications, then WHY is there no interpolated verse prohibiting beef eating, especially among the brahmanas? What stopped them from interpolating another verse banning beef eating. Why isn’t there a single interpolated verse venerating the cow?

Finally, Ambedkar misinterprets the verse where Manu enjoins one to eat even meat if offered as a guest. He believes it condones beef eating, but actually this is only a defensive verse. This law can only apply to the vegetarian…this is the sole reason, Gautama Buddha shared pork in his last meal at the Chandala’s house. Even today, it is considered bad manners for a guest to refuse to share a meal. Obviously, the poor don’t have the luxury to take into account, the dietary considerations of their rich guests. That their rich guests don’t snub them was the purpose of Manu’s enjoinment.

I do admit buddhist bhikkus gained ascendancy for reasons other than meat eating, but it is equally true that Buddha uttered the words “meat eating kills the seeds of great compassion” While he definitely did not absolutely prohibit meat eating; he definitely recommended its renunciation. Ambedkar claims that in agricultural societies, Buddhism must have become popular because they criticized animal sacrifices. That does not make any sense. To quote Ambedkar “That in an agricultural population there should be respect for Buddhism and revulsion against Brahmanism which involved slaughter of animals including cows and bullocks is only natural.” If the agricultural population, was meat eating, then why would it look down upon animal slaughter? It would have been possible, only if lingered in their memory; the past where vegetative ideals were the norm of the day as advised by the great sage Manu and vedic sacrifices were carried out in their true pristine forms.

Ambedkar finally claims “The only way for Brahmins to beat the Buddhists was to go a step further and be vegetarians.” Ambedkar hence attempts to disencumber the religion of Buddhism from vegetarianism. If it is true, then he should have further contended that Ashoka was a Hindu in disguise…..Wasn’t it Ashoka, the Buddhist convert who championed the cause of vegetarianism……..Is there any reason to disbelief the fact, that it were his Buddhist advisers who played a key role in Ashoka adopting his rigid stance on vegetarianism. Whether Buddha preached vegetarianism for the masses is uncertain, but what is certain is that it was Buddhism which brought the vegetarian revolution amongst the masses while patronized by Ashoka, blaming it on Brahmanism is silly to say the least.

Hence, it was this rigid stance of vegetarianism that Buddhism ushered through Ashoka that psychologically compelled large components of Hindu society to accept vegetarianism. But it brought a conflict with the poor who couldn’t renounce meat eating. It also was the era of compassion. It began to play a role in cow deification since the milk giving cow was equated to the human mother and eating up old cows was extrapolated to eating up one’s old mother herself! Most of the puranas were written during this period for which they seeked inspiration from the vedic texts. The several benedictory passages they found influenced the puranic scholars and played a key role in formulating future cow deification. It is also probable that the esoteric meaning of the vedic cow was long lost and only the external meanings seen. Finally, repeated attacks from mleccha invaders like the huns, forced Indians to assert their uniqueness amongst all civilization. And that they discovered in non beef eating.

Ambedkar claims the other castes mimicked the Brahmins because it is in the nature of the lower to imitate the higher class. What one fails to appreciate is how come they never mimicked other brahmanical ideals! Even if they imitated the ideal of cow veneration, it was only because they could appreciate that in their hearts. If untouchability arose, it was indirectly derived from Buddhism’s excessive purist stance, fostered by Ashoka which led to fostering of the future notions of brahmanical purity within Hinduism.

Ambedkar’s thesis is hence sophistry at its very best. It holds little objective value except that he is right about untouchability arising subsequent to cow deification.
 
Wanting to outcompete everyone else, to beat them at their own best game (with the exception, of course, that the game not be perverse, like genocide or something), is now disturbing? What ever happened to the competitive spirit?

When the competitive spirit involves killing POW, than it become a perversion. But of course you'd never come that low, would you?
 
My being of caste X is completely irrelevant to the truth value of my statements.

You are absolutly right buddy, you're statement would still be wrong even if you were from a lower cast.

Again, you show your complete lack of logical thinking ability by making such a statement, which is a blatant attack ad homimen.

Now being from the brahmin caste, your statement not only is wrong but sounds arrogant, selfcentered and outrageous.
 
When the competitive spirit involves killing POW, than it become a perversion. But of course you'd never come that low, would you?

Quite correct. I would never stoop that low.

I would, however, stoop so low as to pretend that I'd be willing to kill POWs in order to enhance our strategic interests. ;)


More importantly, you fail to grasp my wider point - that my wish is for India to become the economic, cultural, and spiritual growth engine of the world, and the source of the world's values and the society which everyone aspires to emulate.
 
aneeshm said:
The Buddha was at his core a philosopher, and he did not comment on issues of society at all. He preached individual compassion, not institutional change.

Actually most philosophers including the Buddha comment on aspects of society, how it should be organised and how people should live. If the Buddha is merely a philosopher Buddhism wouldn't have developed into a seperate religion from Hinduism. Buddhism was, in short, a reaction to Hindu society, an alternative faith (compare this with Confucianism - Taoism relationship).

aneeshm said:
The Buddha said that anyone could join his order of monks (the Sangha), irrespective of any differences of birth. This was not an innovation. The Hindu Sannyasi order is also open to all, irrespective of birth.

The Buddha did said that. But he also said that anyone can attain enlightenment, something not possible for Hindu untouchables or lower caste IIRC.

aneeshm said:
The Buddha was never a social commentator at all. He did not preach how society should be. He simply preached a few general moral and spiritual and philosophical principles for laymen. A renunciation or repudiation of caste was not among them.

Yes, it was. He himself said: “Not by birth is one an outcast, not by birth is one a noble. But by deeds is one an outcast. And by deeds is one a noble.”

aneeshm said:
This is a very common misconception about the Buddha, that he sought to improve society. In fact, he was quite unequivocal about the futility of worldly pursuits, and did not waste time on social reform, preferring instead to create an order of monks who would attempt to become enlightened, and show others the way.

True, he was more concerned with establishing the sangha (the monastic order), but to say he does not concerned himself with social issues is not correct. His renunciation of the caste system is one example. He promoted freedom of thought, renounces slavery, orders the monks to care for the sick and so on.
 
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