Ask a Muslim, Part II

Yes, he was well aware. He shouldn't be painted as a bad person, he actually protected Muhammad and the early Muslims from being completely ostracized and isolated by the pagan Arabs. Without his help, they might have been unable to survive. Nevertheless, he never believed in Muhammad's revelation and never became a Muslim.

Then why is it being presented as a miracle? The uncle is stuck in a logical paradox (kinda, there's no intellectual need for him to convert).

How can the uncle convert to Islam if converting would then disprove Islam? He can never believe the message of Islam (in order to convert), because believing it shows that Islam is not true.

Using that system, I can be a prophet of the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

"Stacmon, I am a prophet of the FSM. Everything I say is divine and true. If you do not worship the FSM, you will burn in sticky goo of tomato paste for all eternity. You will never believe in the FSM. If you believe in the FSM, you will absolutely disprove my divine status."

You cannot reasonably believe, because if you do, you disprove that it warrants belief!
 
The Muslim empires of India attempted to systematically destroy Indic culture. Not a single Great Temple exists in the North (which can equal the the grandeur of the Great Temples of the South). The Mughals were imperialistic tyrants, nothing else. They hated India.

If that's the case, it's still remarkable how religiously tolerant they were. At its greatest extent, the Mughals controlled almost all of India (as shown by the map earlier). The fact that about 80% of Indians are Hindus today suggests that they were certainly not forced to convert and were allowed to continue practicing their religion.

When foreign empires capture distant territories, they will often (sometimes passively) introduce or support their own culture, or lead to a fusion of cultures. This is done through, for instance, the patronage of Persian/Turkish/Arab style art forms, etc. the use of "Islamic" style architecture for new buildings financed by the rulers, etc.

If they did actually destroy temples and/or other cultural buildings then that is extremely unfortunate. One reason I can imagine that this initially happened (ie: in Northern India) is that the incoming Muslims saw Hinduism as an idolatrous religion, and as most people know, the Abrahamic religions state clearly that they do not tolerate idolatry.

However, I believe that the title of "People of the Book" was eventually extended to the Hindus, which is one explanation why their religious community was able to survive and develop despite Islamic rule.

Then why is it being presented as a miracle? The uncle is stuck in a logical paradox (kinda, there's no intellectual need for him to convert).

How can the uncle convert to Islam if converting would then disprove Islam? He can never believe the message of Islam (in order to convert), because believing it shows that Islam is not true.

You cannot reasonably believe, because if you do, you disprove that it warrants belief!

Muhammad's (pbuh) uncle, Abu Talib, loved Muhammad (pbuh), and protected him, despite disbelieving in his religion. He could have ended Muhammad (pbuh) and his followers' isolation from the rest of their tribe simply by reciting the Shahada (testimony of faith, that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger). However, he believed so strongly in the faith of his forefathers that he was unwilling to give even that much respect or attention to Islam.

The revelation given to Muhammad (pbuh) doesn't say why Abu Talib will never declare the Shahada, only that he never will and will never be among the Muslim community. The assumption that you're making is that if someone declares the Shahada and that they claim to others that they believe in the message of Islam, that Muslims can say "we don't think you're sincere" or "we don't believe you." Once a person declares the Shahada, they are considered Muslim by the Muslim Faithful. If they didn't mean it, and practice Islam, despite disbelieving in it, then they are among the hypocrites, which the Qur'an states will be among the losers in the Hereafter (because they profess to believe and disbelieve).

The question that you have to ask yourself is, if this wasn't revelation from God, why risk making such a comment and leave this huge potential threat open.

Even on his deathbed, Muhammad (pbuh) tried repeatedly to convince him to accept Islam. Members of their tribe however continued to interject and say "will you really give up your forefathers' faith?" Abu Talib was unwilling to give up those deeply held beliefs and died as a non-Muslim, which bothered Muhammad deeply (pbuh).
 
The question that you have to ask yourself is, if this wasn't revelation from God, why risk making such a comment and leave this huge potential threat open.

Sigh, there is no way for the uncle to accept the faith in an intellectually honest way. He cannot, by logic alone, accept the Islamic faith with the statement made by Mohammed! It is fundamentally impossible to claim to believe!

It's a logic puzzle, and it's being presented as a miracle!
 
There's a Part 2??? Part One was more than enough.
 
Sigh, there is no way for the uncle to accept the faith in an intellectually honest way. He cannot, by logic alone, accept the Islamic faith with the statement made by Mohammed! It is fundamentally impossible to claim to believe!

It's a logic puzzle, and it's being presented as a miracle!

Before we speak any further on the matter, I'm getting concerned that I haven't been able to find a reference for the exact topic we're discussing.

There's no debate among Sunni Muslims that Muhammad's (pbuh) uncle Abu Talib, despite supporting his nephew never accepted Islam, including on his death bed. However, despite some effort on my part, I haven't been able to find any place that describes Muhammad receiving revelation regarding his uncle never converting. I'm sure I've heard the story numerous times, but when I looked for details, I couldn't find them.

So rather than posting the response that I had prepared, I encourage anyone with more details about the matter to post them, or El_Machinae, Eran, Mott1 any one of you to try to track down this account of events.

I don't want to mislead anyone or give people false information, but so far I haven't been able to turn up that part of the narrative. Any help would be appreciated.
 
Also Off-Topic to our Off-Topic conversation... a new Civ 4 Expansion Pack is coming out! It sounds great and I was expecting them to come out with another expansion for the game, I'm glad they will be. :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:
 
Just pay attention to the next time you see the story being told by a person in a position of authority. Watch to see if they include the details I asked for, and if they try to get people to swallow the idea that a logic puzzle was a sign of divinity.
 
No no, it's not that El_Machinae,

I don't think this was a person of any authority, and your reasoning is something I've considered myself. I even prepared an argument in response to your (uh...) response ;). But before we moved on any further discussing it, I figured it would be best first to confirm it, in case the whole discussion ended up being moot.

But it's really strange that I haven't been able to find anything on it. To me it's almost as self evident as the story of Noah's ark, which someone could talk about, without having to reference.

Anyway hopefully someone will shed some light on this.
 
Back
Top Bottom